Latest School Shooting

[longboard55]

I've read the thread and there are some pretty strong opinions. What I have to say on the topic are my own thoughts, and some may not agree and that's just fine with me.

It is so sad the way the world is today, and getting worse all the time. I feel so very sorry for the innocent children that have died in these school shootings, and their parents. I cannot even begin to imagine what they are going through. With that said, 40 years ago...actually a bit longer as I graduated in 1975, we didn't have these problems. Country boys drove their pickups to school with a gun rack and a gun in it. DH said when a boy got a new gun at his school (95% country kids, farm kids) one of his teachers would go out to look at it. These kids didn't think about shooting up their schools and classmates. Back then most kids knew what it meant to be respectful. Yes, there were a handful of wild, rebellious kids, but not like in today's world.

Back then corporal punishment was allowed, back then most parents didn't get a divorce (or more than one), back then most moms didn't work full-time like they do today, back then kids were taught to be respectful and kind. Back then most families went to church. I could go on and on. But today it's so different. And as I believe in God and the Bible I know it's just going to continue getting worse.

I truly believe in the statement that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and if there were no more guns it would just be something else, troubled/mentally unstable kids would make bombs and they would kill even more people than what guns do. It's just like the fork. The fork doesn't make people fat, people make themselves fat by not putting down the fork. A normal, decent, respectful, law-abiding citizen doesn't go around killing people with guns. My husband and I own guns. We don't think about killing other people with them. We have morals, and respect other people and their lives. I agree with the above PP, cleverclovers, about respect. Somewhere along the way that has been lost in a lot of people, and they in turn are not teaching their children to respect others.

They had HUNTING rifles. That is not how guns are marketed today.

 

[Colleen27]

It doesn’t happen because most schools don’t have metal detectors so the kids are in school. Do you really think that if a kid with a gun wants to kill students, a metal detector will stop him? No, he will do it elsewhere.

And a metal detector is only as good as the staff reacting when it flags. A lot of Detroit schools have them and there have been a couple of incidents where the security guard manning the detector was stabbed for trying to stop someone who was bringing a weapon into the school. Someone determined to bring a gun in could very easily do the same, shooting the guard and walking right through the detector.

I've read the thread and there are some pretty strong opinions. What I have to say on the topic are my own thoughts, and some may not agree and that's just fine with me.

It is so sad the way the world is today, and getting worse all the time. I feel so very sorry for the innocent children that have died in these school shootings, and their parents. I cannot even begin to imagine what they are going through. With that said, 40 years ago...actually a bit longer as I graduated in 1975, we didn't have these problems. Country boys drove their pickups to school with a gun rack and a gun in it. DH said when a boy got a new gun at his school (95% country kids, farm kids) one of his teachers would go out to look at it. These kids didn't think about shooting up their schools and classmates. Back then most kids knew what it meant to be respectful. Yes, there were a handful of wild, rebellious kids, but not like in today's world.

Back then corporal punishment was allowed, back then most parents didn't get a divorce (or more than one), back then most moms didn't work full-time like they do today, back then kids were taught to be respectful and kind. Back then most families went to church. I could go on and on. But today it's so different. And as I believe in God and the Bible I know it's just going to continue getting worse.

While some of that is true and some I'd disagree with rather strenuously, you're missing something else that has changed in our culture... decades of marketing and political & sales campaigns rooted in telling us all that we should be afraid all the time and need deadly weapons, not for hunting or protecting livestock as those country boys did, but to protect *ourselves* from everything from rampant crime (which is actually lower than in most of our nation's past) to terrorists to a tyrannical government. We have parents all over this country too afraid of their own personal boogeymen to even store their guns safely or take steps to keep them away from a child that is known to be troubled, and now we want to push that same fear-based, weapon-clutching mindset onto teachers while ignoring the preponderance of data that shows more guns around children make them less safe, not more.

 

[maddiel]

Are you disputing the findings? Or just don’t like them?

Maybe because the article itself now starts with a note that says the research it was based on is flawed and the author has withdrawn it?

 

[mjkacmom]

I've read the thread and there are some pretty strong opinions. What I have to say on the topic are my own thoughts, and some may not agree and that's just fine with me.

It is so sad the way the world is today, and getting worse all the time. I feel so very sorry for the innocent children that have died in these school shootings, and their parents. I cannot even begin to imagine what they are going through. With that said, 40 years ago...actually a bit longer as I graduated in 1975, we didn't have these problems. Country boys drove their pickups to school with a gun rack and a gun in it. DH said when a boy got a new gun at his school (95% country kids, farm kids) one of his teachers would go out to look at it. These kids didn't think about shooting up their schools and classmates. Back then most kids knew what it meant to be respectful. Yes, there were a handful of wild, rebellious kids, but not like in today's world.

Back then corporal punishment was allowed, back then most parents didn't get a divorce (or more than one), back then most moms didn't work full-time like they do today, back then kids were taught to be respectful and kind. Back then most families went to church. I could go on and on. But today it's so different. And as I believe in God and the Bible I know it's just going to continue getting worse.

I truly believe in the statement that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and if there were no more guns it would just be something else, troubled/mentally unstable kids would make bombs and they would kill even more people than what guns do. It's just like the fork. The fork doesn't make people fat, people make themselves fat by not putting down the fork. A normal, decent, respectful, law-abiding citizen doesn't go around killing people with guns. My husband and I own guns. We don't think about killing other people with them. We have morals, and respect other people and their lives. I agree with the above PP, cleverclovers, about respect. Somewhere along the way that has been lost in a lot of people, and they in turn are not teaching their children to respect others.

Back then there was no internet, no social media. That’s the difference. I graduated HS in the 80’s, I find kids are just as respectful now, if not more. I’ve had five teens, I’ve known many. Unfortunately, kids are bullied differently today, I’m so glad I didn’t grow up in this era. It’s 24/7, there is no escaping it.

 

[MIGrandma]

Back then there was no internet, no social media. That’s the difference. I graduated HS in the 80’s, I find kids are just as respectful now, if not more. I’ve had five teens, I’ve known many. Unfortunately, kids are bullied differently today, I’m so glad I didn’t grow up in this era. It’s 24/7, there is no escaping it.

Totally agree with you about the social media of today. There was internet when my kids were teens, but not stuff like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. Yes, some kids are still respectful in today's world, but sadly there are a lot of them out there that don't respect anything or anyone.

 

[robinb]

Can you imagine how many he would have killed or injured if he had gotten his hand on a semi-automatic?????

I can't help but think about 16-year old Rome Shubert who was shot in the HEAD and was treated and released from the hospital. As you know I am no gun expert but my guess is that boy would be DEAD had the shooter used a more powerful weapon like a semi-automatic rifle.

 

[Domo]

I can't help but think about 16-year old Rome Shubert who was shot in the HEAD and was treated and released from the hospital. As you know I am no gun expert but my guess is that boy would be DEAD had the shooter used a more powerful weapon like a semi-automatic rifle.

Any weapon can be lethal. The least we can do is eradicate the most dangerous ones from the public domain. And by "most dangerous" I mean easiest to cause a fatality with. So at the top we have a hydrogen bomb and at the bottom we have an elastic band. Criminal exaggeration I know, but it conveys the message well.

 

[UncleMike101]

I can't help but think about 16-year old Rome Shubert who was shot in the HEAD and was treated and released from the hospital. As you know I am no gun expert but my guess is that boy would be DEAD had the shooter used a more powerful weapon like a semi-automatic rifle.

We need to consider a few points.
The school shooters have ALL been bullied.
The school shooters have ALL placed information on Social Media which warned of their leanings toward violence.
The School systems are NOT enforcing anti bullying rules and they are ignoring obvious signs of instability in some students.
These are troubled kids and are in need of intervention by Mental Health professionals.
Now.....
The action configuration of a firearm has absolutely ZERO effect on it's lethality.
In close quarters, like a school, a shotgun is far more dangerous since it throws a pattern of pellets which have the nasty tendency to bounce off walls when fired against them at less than a 25 degree angle and continue down range taking pieces of the wall along, which is why Law enforcement prefer shotguns inside of buildings.
Anyone can commit murder with something as mundane as a Bic Pen or a #2 pencil and I've seen a Police Officer who had a pencil rammed completely through her jaw during an interview with an "unarmed" person.
People are ONLY unarmed if you remove their arms.
And legs.
We can't prevent people from committing violent acts unless se can segregate those people from Society and provide them with proper treatment for their mental issues.
Humans have committed murder with everything from pointy sticks to nuclear devices and no amount of "control" over those objects has stopped the Human Race's predilection for killing off it's own kind.
It's not the object.
It's the people.......

 

[robinb]

Any weapon can be lethal. The least we can do is eradicate the most dangerous ones from the public domain. And by "most dangerous" I mean easiest to cause a fatality with. So at the top we have a hydrogen bomb and at the bottom we have an elastic band. Criminal exaggeration I know, but it conveys the message well.

I was replying to a post about the weapons the killer used instead of a semi-automatic rifle. What I'm saying is that the same boy shot in the same spot with a semi-automatic rifle (like the famous AR-15) would be dead. I guess if he was hit in the same place with a rocket he's be dead too but we were not talking about rockets. Or hydrogen bombs.

 

[declansdad]

We need to consider a few points.
The school shooters have ALL been bullied.
The school shooters have ALL placed information on Social Media which warned of their leanings toward violence.
The School systems are NOT enforcing anti bullying rules and they are ignoring obvious signs of instability in some students.
These are troubled kids and are in need of intervention by Mental Health professionals.
Now.....
The action configuration of a firearm has absolutely ZERO effect on it's lethality.
In close quarters, like a school, a shotgun is far more dangerous since it throws a pattern of pellets which have the nasty tendency to bounce off walls when fired against them at less than a 25 degree angle and continue down range taking pieces of the wall along, which is why Law enforcement prefer shotguns inside of buildings.
Anyone can commit murder with something as mundane as a Bic Pen or a #2 pencil and I've seen a Police Officer who had a pencil rammed completely through her jaw during an interview with an "unarmed" person.
People are ONLY unarmed if you remove their arms.
And legs.
We can't prevent people from committing violent acts unless se can segregate those people from Society and provide them with proper treatment for their mental issues.
Humans have committed murder with everything from pointy sticks to nuclear devices and no amount of "control" over those objects has stopped the Human Race's predilection for killing off it's own kind.
It's not the object.
It's the people.......

All good points; however, the simple matter is that the people seem to have easier access to one object in the USA that they don't have anywhere else and these type of mass murders happen pretty much in one country only. If you are going to solve the problem, all the cards have to be put on the table including the guns. Until that happens, nothing will change.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

Maybe because the article itself now starts with a note that says the research it was based on is flawed and the author has withdrawn it?

He pulled the paper because his original survey was national and he had mistakenly referred to the cdc report as a nationally based survey also where it was based on only 15 states
“Alaska, Colorado, Hawaii, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. (Those states, from 2000 census data, contained around 27 percent of the U.S. population.)”
pretty sure that would still be relevant data.

 

[Colleen27]

Any weapon can be lethal. The least we can do is eradicate the most dangerous ones from the public domain. And by "most dangerous" I mean easiest to cause a fatality with. So at the top we have a hydrogen bomb and at the bottom we have an elastic band. Criminal exaggeration I know, but it conveys the message well.

And that's why the "guns don't kill people" argument is so silly. They don't kill people by themselves, but they are certainly the easiest and most efficient means for an untrained/unskilled person to kill multiple people in a short period of time. This shooter had guns and he had bombs... None of the bombs were operational, but he had no problem killing with those guns.

We need to consider a few points.
The school shooters have ALL been bullied.
The school shooters have ALL placed information on Social Media which warned of their leanings toward violence.
The School systems are NOT enforcing anti bullying rules and they are ignoring obvious signs of instability in some students.
These are troubled kids and are in need of intervention by Mental Health professionals.
Now.....
The action configuration of a firearm has absolutely ZERO effect on it's lethality.
In close quarters, like a school, a shotgun is far more dangerous since it throws a pattern of pellets which have the nasty tendency to bounce off walls when fired against them at less than a 25 degree angle and continue down range taking pieces of the wall along, which is why Law enforcement prefer shotguns inside of buildings.
Anyone can commit murder with something as mundane as a Bic Pen or a #2 pencil and I've seen a Police Officer who had a pencil rammed completely through her jaw during an interview with an "unarmed" person.
People are ONLY unarmed if you remove their arms.
And legs.
We can't prevent people from committing violent acts unless se can segregate those people from Society and provide them with proper treatment for their mental issues.
Humans have committed murder with everything from pointy sticks to nuclear devices and no amount of "control" over those objects has stopped the Human Race's predilection for killing off it's own kind.
It's not the object.
It's the people.......

First, not all of the mass shooters have been bullied. That's been soundly debunked. Many were socially isolated, but that's not the same as bullied and was often a consequence of their own actions and demeanor (ie, not many people want to pal around with animal torturers or those who espouse nazi views).

Second, while our mental health system is clearly inadequate in many ways, the bottom line is that you can't force mental help on an unwilling individual any more than you can force sobriety on an addict.

Third, please show me a case where someone took out 10 or 20 or 50 people with a BIC pen before police or a bystander could intervene...

I agree we cannot prevent people from committing all violent acts. That would be impossible. But that doesn't mean we can't make it harder for those individuals to carry out mass-casualty attacks.

 

[Domo]

I was replying to a post about the weapons the killer used instead of a semi-automatic rifle. What I'm saying is that the same boy shot in the same spot with a semi-automatic rifle (like the famous AR-15) would be dead. I guess if he was hit in the same place with a rocket he's be dead too but we were not talking about rockets. Or hydrogen bombs.

What I was trying to get across is that perhaps the first move would be towards banning SOME common weapons, such as the famous AR-15s. I'll bet that with less weapons of the same lethality in circulation, shootings will decline.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

I was replying to a post about the weapons the killer used instead of a semi-automatic rifle. What I'm saying is that the same boy shot in the same spot with a semi-automatic rifle (like the famous AR-15) would be dead. I guess if he was hit in the same place with a rocket he's be dead too but we were not talking about rockets. Or hydrogen bombs.

That really depends, a shotgun in close proximity to the victim would be much more powerful than the typical ammo 5.56 fired from an AR-15. Not sure what caliber revolver he had but any of the popular magnum rounds would also produce equal or more force than the 223/5.56 round.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

That really depends, a shotgun in close proximity to the victim would be much more powerful than the typical ammo 5.56 fired from an AR-15. Not sure what caliber revolver he had but any of the popular magnum rounds would also produce equal or more force than the 223/5.56 round.

It's was a .38 revolver

 

[Domo]

It's strange, re. lethality of weapons.

From experience (not in murdering, just operating!) I find that semi-automatic rifles to be the most efficient at bringing a target down. They are more accurate than a pistol (obvious physics) and the accuracy over range and efficiency being semi automatic make them prime examples of a lethal weapon. Just take a page out of the book of the Las Vegas serial killer. He holed himself up in a hotel room overlooking a rave and with his rifles was able to kill tonnes of targets and wound tonnes more. A pistol would be less accurate and the dissipation of a shotgun would limit it's efficiency. It can be argued that semi-auto weapons by the same tongue are more accurate than fully automatic weapons as recoil would be more negated, but then again I guess when you have a big crowd who cares where your rounds go, as long as you get as many out of your barrel as you can in as short a space of time...

 

[UncleMike101]

And that's why the "guns don't kill people" argument is so silly. They don't kill people by themselves, but they are certainly the easiest and most efficient means for an untrained/unskilled person to kill multiple people in a short period of time. This shooter had guns and he had bombs... None of the bombs were operational, but he had no problem killing with those guns.



First, not all of the mass shooters have been bullied. That's been soundly debunked. Many were socially isolated, but that's not the same as bullied and was often a consequence of their own actions and demeanor (ie, not many people want to pal around with animal torturers or those who espouse nazi views).

Second, while our mental health system is clearly inadequate in many ways, the bottom line is that you can't force mental help on an unwilling individual any more than you can force sobriety on an addict.

Third, please show me a case where someone took out 10 or 20 or 50 people with a BIC pen before police or a bystander could intervene...

I agree we cannot prevent people from committing all violent acts. That would be impossible. But that doesn't mean we can't make it harder for those individuals to carry out mass-casualty attacks.

Well.....
I NEVER stated that a Bic pen, or a pencil, was used in a mass murder.
I stated that they CAN be used to commit murder.
And, I've placed a loaded firearm on a desk in front of numerous people and NOT ONCE did that firearm jump up and shoot anyone.
(Although I do lock my firearms up in a safe at night so they can't get out and run about the countryside willy-nilly murdering everyone they come across.)
The idea of blaming an object for the foul actions of humans is ridiculous.
Trucks and knives are the weapon of choice of crazed lunatics in countries where strict gun control is exercised and recently in our country as well.
Well, except for France where they simply ignored the laws and brought full automatic firearms into a music venue and shot the crowd to pieces.
I'll repeat.
"It's not the object."
"It's the people......."

 

[Domo]

"It's not the object."
"It's the people......."

But...

You don't give an overweight diabetic man cake, do you?

Same way you don't give a risk case a gun?

And how do you define a risk case? Thought police territory? Or pre-emptive policing? Clearly not enough is being done, or America wouldn't be afflicted by such a monstrous amounts of mass shootings.

 

[Colleen27]

"It's not the object."
"It's the people......."

It is both. The object enables the person to inflict maximum damage with minimal skill or effort.

 

[Domo]

I'll duck out of this thread for the night and avoid points (assuming I haven't just scored some anyway!)

Will check back in in the morning. Play nice, everyone!