"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[skyblue17]

Thanks for that really long post, I still think gender reveal parties are awful and that kids are hyperaware of gender stereotypes because of adults.

 

[LSUmiss]

If a child does not choose to be something other than their biological gender, then nothing anyone does is going to change what they are or are not. Babies are a happy occasion and parents are always thrilled to find out they are pregnant and then excited to find out whether its a boy or a girl. And whether they like pink and soccer in the future or blue and baseball or green and cats has NOTHING to do with a cake the parents have made before they were even born nor does it have anything to do with what gender the child is or is not.

Why do we see parents saying "thank goodness"? Because when you have 6 boys and you want a girl, that is your reaction. Does that mean the parents won't love her if she comes to them one day and says "I am not a girl" Of course not or it shouldn't.

Perhaps gender shouldn't be pushed on a child but neither should the confusion of thinking about their gender when they aren't questioning it or confused about it or thinking they were born the wrong gender or whatever. For the vast majority of kids, its not something they should really even think about.

As someone who worked for 16 years with children ages 0-5, nothing has to be ingrained into a child. They naturally gravitate toward much of what we view as "traditional" boy or girl tastes and likes--which is exactly why those things became thought of as traditionally for a boy or a girl. Put a group of boys in a room with several choices of items to play with and almost every one of them will go toward blocks, trucks, etc. The girls will go toward the dress up, kitchen, dolls, pretend play things. ALL of them like art and science. Take a group outside, most of the boys will play rougher than the girls. You can argue gender till you turn blue but 16 years and hundreds of kids will tell you otherwise. No one is ingraining anything in them, its just their natural way of being. That does NOT mean girls can't be rough and tough or that boys can't enjoy pretend play and quiet play. They all will do all of it throughout a day, but MOST of the time, they will naturally go toward the things that are seen as "traditionally" male or female.

What needs to stop is the adult thoughts and needs being pushed on children. Let them be children. They will get into enough confusion with puberty starts. Some parents are now trying so hard to meet all the new thoughts on these things that they are confusing these poor kids more.

I know a young lady that is so hell bent on making sure her son knows that if he is gay or trans or whatever, she will still love him and accept him that she is bordering on making him think he has to be one of those for her to love and accept him. When all he needs to know is that she loves him unconditionally. That's all any child needs--unconditional love.

Children and parents do not need the added confusion of being "oh so careful" about "pushing" a gender. That is rubbish.

I can’t agree more. We did absolutely nothing to encourage DS to be a boy, but as a young child he is already all boy! He loves outside, sticks, mud, puddles, balls, trucks, wheels etc more than any other toys or things he has been exposed to. He is around girl children & has no interest in the things they play with or do. I’ve seen this behavior a lot in other young children both boys & girls that I have been around. That’s why I believe the non traditional gender thing is definitely an anomaly. I do think it’s something ppl may be born with or that develops very early on, but it’s definitely not the norm. So this idea that there are so many teens struggling with their gender identity is absurd to me. I think that has a lot more to do with outside influences at that point.

 

[LSUmiss]

Thanks for that really long post, I still think gender reveal parties are awful and that kids are hyperaware of gender stereotypes because of adults.

Just curious. Do you have your own children? I don’t know anyone who does who hasn’t at least seen some of the above in their own kids. How can my 18 mos old son possibly be aware of gender stereotypes yet? Yet he is rough, active, & much more “boy-like” to the core than his girl peers. I also have a cousin who is a transgender male & from a young age she gravitated toward “boy” things despite her parents (especially her mother) trying to encourage her to be more “girly”. I don’t mean she liked to play sports. I mean she refused to potty train at 2-3 years unless her parents bought her boy underwear & many many other things like this. When he finally revealed he was transgender no one was surprised at all.

 

[VandVsmama]

Gender reveal parties are SO stupid. I wish that trend would just die already.

I agree. I think that gender reveal parties are dumb. A regular baby shower is great. But the trend of over the top gender reveal events complete with videos posted to YouTube and everything...it's a little too much.

 

[skyblue17]

Just curious. Do you have your own children? I don’t know anyone who does who hasn’t at least seen some of the above in their own kids. How can my 18 mos old son possibly be aware of gender stereotypes yet? Yet he is rough, active, & much more “boy-like” to the core than his girl peers. I also have a cousin who is a transgender male & from a young age she gravitated toward “boy” things despite her parents (especially her mother) trying to encourage her to be more “girly”. I don’t mean she liked to play sports. I mean she refused to potty train at 2-3 years unless her parents bought her boy underwear & many many other things like this. When he finally revealed he was transgender no one was surprised at all.

I don't. However, I don't think that means I can't observe that there is a hyperawareness of gender in society that might lead to more challenges as kids grow older. I'm not even just talking about kids who might identify differently. I'm talking about the attitudes of other kids toward those kids, and how these issues are viewed by people they don't directly affect. I'm also not saying that kids don't gravitate toward certain preferences, and that there is no basis for what we can consider stereotypes. I'm just expressing that I think there is more of that than there needs to be. Your 18mo might like boy things, and that's great. My friend's son has a big sister and he loves boy things too. He also loves putting on his sister's princess dresses and is growing his hair long so he can have a ponytail like her. He's still a boy, but can you see how being more fluid about gender is better than being strict about it?

tl;dr I am not objecting that kids don't come to conclusions on their own, quite the opposite. I'm saying that everyone would probably be better off if we didn't care so much about boys/girls and just let people be.

 

[luvsJack]

Thanks for that really long post, I still think gender reveal parties are awful and that kids are hyperaware of gender stereotypes because of adults.

yes, because it would be just too hard to even try to consider another opinion?

I have considered yours throughout the thread and am more than willing to listen and consider any opinion on the matter. But yours comes from "observing society". Mine comes from many years of observing children.

My younger son still has long hair and wears a pony tail, it has nothing to do with gender. It is a hair preference. My daughter is a professional wrestler. Nothing to do with gender just something she loves to do. (they are both adults but have had the long hair and the love of wrestling their whole lives)

Children need to just be children. No one needs to decide what they are or will be. AND no one needs to add confusion on top of them being children to try and say there should be no boys and girls. Most children know they or either a boy or a girl. If we start now pushing to make it so there is no gender identification, we will simply be adding to the confusion of figuring out who they are. So instead of things being harder for the .05% that may be questioning their gender, you seem to be of the opinion we should just confuse the other 99.95%? Take your friend's son, should he be confused about the messages adults send and start thinking he is trans or something because he likes to have long hair and play dress up? Or the girl who just likes to play in the mud, ride horses and wrestle? Should she now start thinking she isn't really a girl when in all reality she is just a tomboy?

Kids are not hyperaware of gender stereotypes. They just know what they like. You are confusing the two things. You are assuming that boys act like boys because their parents are influencing them when more than you realize do not do that at all. Its like boys and toy guns. Some boys will find a way to play guns no matter how much you try to remove them. Little 3 year olds with no toy guns at home and no toy guns at the center picking up sticks and saying "pow pow" is just how they are wired.

There is nothing wrong with gender reveals. Maybe shouldn't be a whole party but if the parents want to celebrate their little bundle of joy coming soon, they should celebrate. Life is too short not to celebrate any time we can.

 

[CamilaGS]

I don’t agree with this. Referring to people, young or old) as a ‘lady’ (small ‘l’) or gentleman implies a certain decorum and standard of behaviour. I expect my young adult children to behave in a ladylike and gentlemanly manner but that does not mean that they cannot pursue their dreams and be whomever they want to be. It just means that they will be kind, charming, polite, considerate etc while pursuing those dreams.
I would far prefer to be referred to as an old lady, than an old bag.

In my childhood, when my dad said "act like a lady!" it meant I couldn´t run around with my male cousins and do children things like roll on the floor, sit on the ground to play, etc. It meant I had to sit around and be a proper girl.
I never heard my cousins being told to "act like a gentleman" and sit still and not make a sound.
I think this is what the OP was referring too.

 

[skyblue17]

yes, because it would be just too hard to even try to consider another opinion?

I have considered yours throughout the thread and am more than willing to listen and consider any opinion on the matter. But yours comes from "observing society". Mine comes from many years of observing children.

My younger son still has long hair and wears a pony tail, it has nothing to do with gender. It is a hair preference. My daughter is a professional wrestler. Nothing to do with gender just something she loves to do. (they are both adults but have had the long hair and the love of wrestling their whole lives)

Children need to just be children. No one needs to decide what they are or will be. AND no one needs to add confusion on top of them being children to try and say there should be no boys and girls. Most children know they or either a boy or a girl. If we start now pushing to make it so there is no gender identification, we will simply be adding to the confusion of figuring out who they are. So instead of things being harder for the .05% that may be questioning their gender, you seem to be of the opinion we should just confuse the other 99.95%? Take your friend's son, should he be confused about the messages adults send and start thinking he is trans or something because he likes to have long hair and play dress up? Or the girl who just likes to play in the mud, ride horses and wrestle? Should she now start thinking she isn't really a girl when in all reality she is just a tomboy?

Kids are not hyperaware of gender stereotypes. They just know what they like. You are confusing the two things. You are assuming that boys act like boys because their parents are influencing them when more than you realize do not do that at all. Its like boys and toy guns. Some boys will find a way to play guns no matter how much you try to remove them. Little 3 year olds with no toy guns at home and no toy guns at the center picking up sticks and saying "pow pow" is just how they are wired.

There is nothing wrong with gender reveals. Maybe shouldn't be a whole party but if the parents want to celebrate their little bundle of joy coming soon, they should celebrate. Life is too short not to celebrate any time we can.

I AGREE that children should just be children, which is why I am somewhat bothered by the hyperawareness of gender at gender reveal parties. I wasn't being inconsiderate of your opinion, I just know that my stance on them is not going to change. Parents should absolutely celebrate children that are on the way. I think celebrating based on gender is weird as hell and I think it sets a terrible precedent. I don't need you to agree with me.

And NOWHERE, NOWHERE, NOWHERE did I say there should be NO boys or girls. Obviously there are boys and there are girls. I think we should FOCUS less on what's for boys and what's for girls and just let CHILDREN BE. Which it seems like what you're saying also! There shouldn't be a reason for a boy who likes princesses to think there's anything wrong with liking princesses because princesses are for girls. You seem to be one assigning meaning to those things, not me. I think a kid who likes something should just get to LIKE IT and the fact that there are so many "girl" things and "boy" things is what can be confusing. How would it be confusing for a boy to not know it's mostly girls who likes princesses? Just like what you like, kid!

I distinctly remember there being a "boy" room when I was in preschool. That's where the blocks were and the water table and all the other "cool" stuff I liked to do. I'm sure things have changed somewhat since, but that is one of my first memories. So I don't think I'm entirely off base that kids are aware of gender stereotypes, either.

Also, respectfully, you don't know anything else about me except that I don't have my own children. You don't know if I'm around kids through family, friends or work. So I'd prefer you not putting my observations in quotes as if I have no access to how children act and react. That's very dismissive.

 

[tzolkin]

I too find the focus on a baby's gender (and the reveal parties) a bit weird. I just have never understood the excitement about having a child of one sex or the other. Just because they're a boy/girl doesn't mean they're going to have specific interests or behave a certain way, so it has always seemed odd that a parent would care whether their child was going to be a boy or girl.

We had two girls and then a boy and DH & I hated telling people because their reaction was always that we should be happy/excited/relieved that we were "finally" having a boy. Not really. It would have been easier for practical reasons (clothes, rooms, etc) to just have another girl.

Just curious. Do you have your own children? I don’t know anyone who does who hasn’t at least seen some of the above in their own kids. How can my 18 mos old son possibly be aware of gender stereotypes yet?

I'm not the poster you were quoting, but I do have children (adults and teens) and I agree with them. Sure you may see stereotypical "boy" or "girl" behavior naturally in your kids. I don't think that poster was saying anything different.

What I got from their posts is that they don't agree with focusing so much on the gender stereotypes to the point that you're pushing things on the kid.

Sure, your 18mo old may not understand the concept of gender stereotypes, but if you have never allowed him to be exposed to anything that's not "masculine" how would he know if he likes anything different?

I know tons of people who are overly insistent that their kids are strictly confined to the norms of one gender or another to the point where the kids are miserable and missing out on other aspects of life. I can't even count how many times I've seen an adult grab something out of a kid's hands and say, "no, that's for girls/boys". I have friends who have all boys and will not allow anything "feminine" in their home because they feel that would threaten or undermine the kids' masculinity. Sure, their boys might prefer "boy" things, but there's a tremendous difference between their boys and others (including my own) who have been allowed to watch movies that aren't oozing with testosterone and play with things outside of the realm of fighting, cars, and sports.

And NOWHERE, NOWHERE, NOWHERE did I say there should be NO boys or girls. Obviously there are boys and there are girls. I think we should FOCUS less on what's for boys and what's for girls and just let CHILDREN BE.

This was our philosophy. We recently had a discussion with our kids about how we were doing "gender neutral" way before that was a thing. Our oldest is turning 21 and she had way more "boy" toys as a small child than anything "girly". The tractors and swords and things were just more fun. She also wore a ton of "gender neutral clothes" because they were practical and we knew we could use again regardless of the sex of future kids. Our son would play with makeup and nail polish and watch princess movies with his sisters. We didn't have any agenda and weren't trying to push "gender neutrality" on them; we just let them enjoy things that they wanted without commenting about it. They just didn't (and still don't) feel the pressure of looking or acting a certain way or liking certain things because that's what's expected of their gender.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

This is in the news today:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-dad-trying-stop-son-transitioning-girl.html

 

[LSUmiss]

I too find the focus on a baby's gender (and the reveal parties) a bit weird. I just have never understood the excitement about having a child of one sex or the other. Just because they're a boy/girl doesn't mean they're going to have specific interests or behave a certain way, so it has always seemed odd that a parent would care whether their child was going to be a boy or girl.

We had two girls and then a boy and DH & I hated telling people because their reaction was always that we should be happy/excited/relieved that we were "finally" having a boy. Not really. It would have been easier for practical reasons (clothes, rooms, etc) to just have another girl.


I'm not the poster you were quoting, but I do have children (adults and teens) and I agree with them. Sure you may see stereotypical "boy" or "girl" behavior naturally in your kids. I don't think that poster was saying anything different.

What I got from their posts is that they don't agree with focusing so much on the gender stereotypes to the point that you're pushing things on the kid.

Sure, your 18mo old may not understand the concept of gender stereotypes, but if you have never allowed him to be exposed to anything that's not "masculine" how would he know if he likes anything different?

I know tons of people who are overly insistent that their kids are strictly confined to the norms of one gender or another to the point where the kids are miserable and missing out on other aspects of life. I can't even count how many times I've seen an adult grab something out of a kid's hands and say, "no, that's for girls/boys". I have friends who have all boys and will not allow anything "feminine" in their home because they feel that would threaten or undermine the kids' masculinity. Sure, their boys might prefer "boy" things, but there's a tremendous difference between their boys and others (including my own) who have been allowed to watch movies that aren't oozing with testosterone and play with things outside of the realm of fighting, cars, and sports.


This was our philosophy. We recently had a discussion with our kids about how we were doing "gender neutral" way before that was a thing. Our oldest is turning 21 and she had way more "boy" toys as a small child than anything "girly". The tractors and swords and things were just more fun. She also wore a ton of "gender neutral clothes" because they were practical and we knew we could use again regardless of the sex of future kids. Our son would play with makeup and nail polish and watch princess movies with his sisters. We didn't have any agenda and weren't trying to push "gender neutrality" on them; we just let them enjoy things that they wanted without commenting about it. They just didn't (and still don't) feel the pressure of looking or acting a certain way or liking certain things because that's what's expected of their gender.

That was my point. He is around “girl” stuff & gender neutral things. Goes to “school” with girls too but always gravitates to more typical boy stuff. And I would have had the same opinion before I had a child, but now that I do I realize how little who he is personality-wise has to do with me or anyone else. He is definitely his own person,

 

[LSUmiss]

This is in the news today:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-dad-trying-stop-son-transitioning-girl.html

The idea of hormone therapy seems absurd to me at that age. We don’t let 7 yr olds make major decisions on any other major healthcare or mental health things. Wearing dresses & preferring girl things is one thing, but medically transitioning at this age is a big too far imo.

 

[mjkacmom]

I can’t agree more. We did absolutely nothing to encourage DS to be a boy, but as a young child he is already all boy! He loves outside, sticks, mud, puddles, balls, trucks, wheels etc more than any other toys or things he has been exposed to. He is around girl children & has no interest in the things they play with or do. I’ve seen this behavior a lot in other young children both boys & girls that I have been around. That’s why I believe the non traditional gender thing is definitely an anomaly. I do think it’s something ppl may be born with or that develops very early on, but it’s definitely not the norm. So this idea that there are so many teens struggling with their gender identity is absurd to me. I think that has a lot more to do with outside influences at that point.

It’s not so many, but it is happening. It usually starts before they are teens, and the ones I know (through their parents) seem to get more confused around puberty, thinking maybe they are gay or bisexual. I know an 18 year old who was born female and now identifies as male (hormones, surgery). His identical twin sister identifies female. Growing up, they were very much alike, not very feminine or masculine. Ran track and cross country, played in the orchestra, short haircuts, modest dress... Just because one kid knows for sure by age 3 doesn’t mean they all know. Having 3 girls and 2 boys, with a set of boy/girl twins, they all have different degrees of femininity and masculinity.

 

[mjkacmom]

This is in the news today:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-dad-trying-stop-son-transitioning-girl.html

Reading the article, I think that statement was in regards to hormone therapy in the future, usually around age 16, not 7.

 

[PollyannaMom]

ETA, that's kind of the point of this whole thread. If you know something might hurt somebody, you stop doing it. You don't have to wait for them to tell you that they've been hurt. Once you are aware that your actions might cause harm to others, whether physical, emotional, or psychological, then the decent thing to do is simply stop doing that action if possible. Changing some basic language is certainly possible and quite easy.

This time it's easy. I've already mentioned some of the the things I say instead of "boys and girls" now, and I don't mind. But:

And the point some of us have been trying to make is if you stop doing EVERYTHING that might possibly offend or hurt someone, we're going to all end up grunting at each other. Over the last month on the Dis, it's been pointed out that you can't use the OK sign, you can't say "ladies and gentlemen" or "boys and girls", and you can't say "Hello!". What's next?

...this is a good point too. Everything is going to bother someone, sometimes for reasons we can't even guess. We can only sanitize things so far, and I think we also have to nurture resilience and the skill of getting through/over discomfort.

People are going to do what they're going to do, but in my opinion, the hyperawarness of binary gender beginning before a person is even born is part of what makes navigating the gender spectrum so challenging later. When your parents are celebrating you're a girl or a boy before they even meet you? Focusing so much on gender rather than on having healthy, well-adjusted kids?...

Another good point.

I wonder if it's one of those "pendulum swing" things? - People got nervous about new concepts of gender, so one last glorification of "the way it used to be" became super popular. (Or maybe it's just Pinterest. )

Put a group of boys in a room with several choices of items to play with and almost every one of them will go toward blocks, trucks, etc. The girls will go toward the dress up, kitchen, dolls, pretend play things. ALL of them like art and science. Take a group outside, most of the boys will play rougher than the girls...

There's nothing wrong with that at all, if they feel they have a choice. The problem comes when Sally happens to want to play with blocks today, and Annie and Emma say she can't play with them tomorrow if she plays "boy stuff" today.

I think we should FOCUS less on what's for boys and what's for girls and just let CHILDREN BE. Which it seems like what you're saying also! There shouldn't be a reason for a boy who likes princesses to think there's anything wrong with liking princesses because princesses are for girls...I think a kid who likes something should just get to LIKE IT and the fact that there are so many "girl" things and "boy" things is what can be confusing.

Absolutely. I'm not denying that there are actual transgender individuals, but I think there are also a lot of kids who question their gender unnecessarily. A boy should be able to like Princess movies and still be a boy; a girl should be able to like football and still be a girl. - Instead of encouraging people to completely change genders (with all the associated medical risks) why don't we just include more acceptable behavior within genders?

 

[tarheelmjfan]

But, you made the claim that after you stopped using "boys and girls" and "ladies and gentlemen" that there's been no adverse affects. But you don't know there were adverse affects before you stopped, so how you do know there aren't any after you stopped?


And the point some of us have been trying to make is if you stop doing EVERYTHING that might possibly offend or hurt someone, we're going to all end up grunting at each other. Over the last month on the Dis, it's been pointed out that you can't use the OK sign, you can't say "ladies and gentlemen" or "boys and girls", and you can't say "Hello!". What's next?

The only thing the recent threads have taught me is that I won't be getting my social cues from the DIS. I'll trust the people I encounter in the real world for that. Otherwise, I might just make my DH or me sound silly. (see below)

I was one of those people who was apparently living under a rock & hadn't heard about the OK sign. Being a sports fan that has done the "ok sign, with raised arms" for a 3 pointer, I had my DH ask his best friend & some of his coworkers about it. They were all black & between the ages of 20 something to 50 something. None of them had ever heard of it being a white supremacist sign or heard that it was supposed to be offensive to blacks. Apparently, they thought it was pretty funny that I had him ask about something so ridiculous. Then again, none of us associate with white supremacists or go looking for things to be offended by. We're not the only people living under that rock though. I noticed a black NFL coach use the "upside down OK sign" as a play signal Sunday. Obviously, he & the players are living there with us. If not for that thread, I wouldn't have given the signal a second thought & realized just how crowded our rock was.

As far as a gender reveal goes, my lesbian niece & her wife had two gender reveal parties hosted by their LGBT friends. They obviously didn't have a problem with it.

 

[okeydokey]

You surprise me. I would have thought that the vast majority of people declaring that they do not have a gender were doing it for self promotion or just to be awkward.

ford family

And you would be very very wrong. But now you know.

 

[okeydokey]

You surprise me. I would have thought that the vast majority of people declaring that they do not have a gender were doing it for self promotion or just to be awkward.

ford family

Double post. Oops.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Reading the article, I think that statement was in regards to hormone therapy in the future, usually around age 16, not 7.

No, looking at different articles about this case that make it a little clearer, the plan is to start him on hormone blockers for "hormone suppression" at age 8-9 followed by cross-sex hormones.

 

[ford family]

And you would be very very wrong. But now you know.

Nope, still of the same opinion despite your bombast.
So now you know!

ford family