Kids running around ship unsupervised

[natmom]

On the dream in may we let our children go and get ice cream, go to the kids clubs, go down to the shop once on their own (12 and 10). They are responsible and polite. We always knew where they were. They were not allowed in anyone's cabin or in the pool without us. I firmly believe you have to give your children some freedom,the DH and I it is part of learning how to be independent.

 

[Dznypal]

we were on the 8-3-13 sailing of the fantasy and the number of kids running like crazy up and down the hall--was nuts

it was hard to tell exactly where it was coming from

one day I went to the deck above us since it sounded like it was coming from there

but when I got there--there was no one around

our table partners said when they cruised when there kids were younger

either the kids were in the kids centers or with the parents

this was a rule set by Disney and they enforced it

not a bad rule if you ask me

also kids need to watch where they are going--I had a kid run right into my plate of food at cabanas since he stated walking while turned around talking to his dad--I felt bad but I was the one standing still waiting for them to pass

 

[Redbudlover]

I usually let my daughter (10) go to the shop or the kids club alone.
I don't see a reason to follow her everywhere when she has been taking the train to her school since the age of seven.
And no, reports of isolated incidents don't scare me off, considering that the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine.

I expect to get royally flamed for this, but i am so frustrated by the ever increasing loss of freedom we experience in the name of safety...

I so agree... When I was 8 years old I was taking my bike on hours long rides alone in the small town where I lived - before cell phones! I think the loss of independence experienced by kids in today's world is a shame. When someone tells me they don't let their 8 and 10 year outside the house by themselves I cringe. How do parents expect these kids to survive college and adulthood when they have had no chance to explore on their own in limited safe venues? Sure kids need to be taught not to take candy from strangers but I can't think of many safer venues than a closed DCL ship... I believe a lot of parents today over supervise their kids rather than under supervise them. Teach them good manners and acceptable behavior - don't chain them to your apron...

 

[ddixon1]

I usually let my daughter (10) go to the shop or the kids club alone.
I don't see a reason to follow her everywhere when she has been taking the train to her school since the age of seven.
And no, reports of isolated incidents don't scare me off, considering that the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine.

Actually, you may want to check your sources (if you are citing any source, but I have the suspicion that you are stating an opinion rather that a data-supported idea RE: "the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine").

An alarming number of children are or have been the victim of child sexual assault, with gross under-reporting of the data acknowledged.

Sadly, I have see this response frequently, "most kids are fine" or "it happens anyway, so why bother trying to stop it?"

Boggles the mind.

Like I said, I'm the person you see (or take your kid to see) -- if you are lucky enough to realize that your child has been harmed. And I don't care to gain that business. Sexual predators are so skilled in their ability to disarm the "instructions" by parents to children on how to stay safe. Then the child does not report the abuse, because s/he "should have known better." It is just too heart-breaking.

However, the gross majority of cases are not discovered, so the children suffer silently (or not so silently, but the signs are missed).

There is a difference between being over-protective and making a good (data-based) assessment of risk.

Cruise ships are not risk-free environments, contrary to the illusion of safety.

And this does not even speak to the rude and disruptive behavior (kids and adults running up and down hallways, etc).

 

[gumbypee]

Actually, you may want to check your sources (if you are citing any source, but I have the suspicion that you are stating an opinion rather that a data-supported idea RE: "the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine").

An alarming number of children are or have been the victim of child sexual assault, with gross under-reporting of the data acknowledged.

Sadly, I have see this response frequently, "most kids are fine" or "it happens anyway, so why bother trying to stop it?"

Boggles the mind.

Like I said, I'm the person you see (or take your kid to see) -- if you are lucky enough to realize that your child has been harmed. And I don't care to gain that business. Sexual predators are so skilled in their ability to disarm the "instructions" by parents to children on how to stay safe. Then the child does not report the abuse, because s/he "should have known better." It is just too heart-breaking.

However, the gross majority of cases are not discovered, so the children suffer silently (or not so silently, but the signs are missed).

There is a difference between being over-protective and making a good (data-based) assessment of risk.

Cruise ships are not risk-free environments, contrary to the illusion of safety.

And this does not even speak to the rude and disruptive behavior (kids and adults running up and down hallways, etc).

But you just said yourself that you are the person these kids come to see. So maybe you have a skewed perception bc you don't see all the kids that are ok? Just a thought not trying to stir the pot.

 

[Autumn Fairy]

Actually, you may want to check your sources (if you are citing any source, but I have the suspicion that you are stating an opinion rather that a data-supported idea RE: "the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine").

An alarming number of children are or have been the victim of child sexual assault, with gross under-reporting of the data acknowledged.

Sadly, I have see this response frequently, "most kids are fine" or "it happens anyway, so why bother trying to stop it?"

Boggles the mind.

Like I said, I'm the person you see (or take your kid to see) -- if you are lucky enough to realize that your child has been harmed. And I don't care to gain that business. Sexual predators are so skilled in their ability to disarm the "instructions" by parents to children on how to stay safe. Then the child does not report the abuse, because s/he "should have known better." It is just too heart-breaking.

However, the gross majority of cases are not discovered, so the children suffer silently (or not so silently, but the signs are missed).

There is a difference between being over-protective and making a good (data-based) assessment of risk.

Cruise ships are not risk-free environments, contrary to the illusion of safety.

And this does not even speak to the rude and disruptive behavior (kids and adults running up and down hallways, etc).

Thank you for saying this. My thoughts exactly.

 

[JoiseyMom]

We first cruised when our kids were DD12 and DS7. He of course had no check out. We allowed her to have checkout, but they called us when she left and she had to tell us where she was going. She left us msgs on the room phone and white board (in the room).

Last year DS11 didn't have check out since he was in the Edge, but with the wave phones, he let us know where he was and was really good at it. DD16 had the same rules.

They also had the following: No running, no hanging out on stairs, no games in the elevators. NO ONE EVER in our cabins, and you can't be in anyone else cabin.

Also if they were approached and they felt in danger, kick, scream and run (not necessarily in that order).

In August last year Magic out of NYC DD16 and DH were in Topsiders. They noticed a crew member leering at young girls. DD got creeped (she is not easily creeped out btw )out and told DH(he also observed the behavior), and they reported the situation. A security officer spoke to both of them later on that day.

Yes, you have to be a parent and know where your kids are and know the rules. My kids are also told that if you get into trouble running around etc they can hang in the room.

 

[Twofebboys]

Actually, you may want to check your sources (if you are citing any source, but I have the suspicion that you are stating an opinion rather that a data-supported idea RE: "the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine").

An alarming number of children are or have been the victim of child sexual assault, with gross under-reporting of the data acknowledged.

Sadly, I have see this response frequently, "most kids are fine" or "it happens anyway, so why bother trying to stop it?"

Boggles the mind.

Like I said, I'm the person you see (or take your kid to see) -- if you are lucky enough to realize that your child has been harmed. And I don't care to gain that business. Sexual predators are so skilled in their ability to disarm the "instructions" by parents to children on how to stay safe. Then the child does not report the abuse, because s/he "should have known better." It is just too heart-breaking.

However, the gross majority of cases are not discovered, so the children suffer silently (or not so silently, but the signs are missed).

There is a difference between being over-protective and making a good (data-based) assessment of risk.

Cruise ships are not risk-free environments, contrary to the illusion of safety.

And this does not even speak to the rude and disruptive behavior (kids and adults running up and down hallways, etc).

As someone that use to treat sex offenders in an inpatient facility, I will remind you that a child is more likely to be assaulted by someone they know, rather than someone they don't. Not to say that a stranger won't assault a child. But, that is what the data shows.

Now, I am NOT saying a child should have complete freedom to do as they please or that you should distrust those close to you. Instead, you should start to build a good foundation for your child of age appropriate discussions about safety, provide an environment where your children can express themselves, provide supervision, build relationships with individuals that spend time with your children, etc.

But, you can not live in a bubble. Your children m must live and experience the world. Yet, you must protect your children. There is a fine balance and what might be needed for one child might not work for another.

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

 

[Bjornda]

Actually, you may want to check your sources (if you are citing any source, but I have the suspicion that you are stating an opinion rather that a data-supported idea RE: "the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine").

An alarming number of children are or have been the victim of child sexual assault, with gross under-reporting of the data acknowledged.

Sadly, I have see this response frequently, "most kids are fine" or "it happens anyway, so why bother trying to stop it?"

Boggles the mind.

Like I said, I'm the person you see (or take your kid to see) -- if you are lucky enough to realize that your child has been harmed. And I don't care to gain that business. Sexual predators are so skilled in their ability to disarm the "instructions" by parents to children on how to stay safe. Then the child does not report the abuse, because s/he "should have known better." It is just too heart-breaking.

However, the gross majority of cases are not discovered, so the children suffer silently (or not so silently, but the signs are missed).

There is a difference between being over-protective and making a good (data-based) assessment of risk.

Cruise ships are not risk-free environments, contrary to the illusion of safety.

And this does not even speak to the rude and disruptive behavior (kids and adults running up and down hallways, etc).

I absolutely can see both sides of this issue, and I think when safety is concerned, you need to know your child. I don't necessarily think its trust (referring to safety) but knowing your kid.

I do have a question that has always made my wheels turn - how can you even guesstimate how many cases have not been discovered?? I'm absolutely not questioning you, just honestly curious as to how this stat is developed. I personally have never put stake it in, because I've never understood how it is determined.

 

[Mickeyhugger]

When someone tells me they don't let their 8 and 10 year outside the house by themselves I cringe. How do parents expect these kids to survive college and adulthood when they have had no chance to explore on their own in limited safe venues? Sure kids need to be taught not to take candy from strangers but I can't think of many safer venues than a closed DCL ship... I believe a lot of parents today over supervise their kids rather than under supervise them. Teach them good manners and acceptable behavior - don't chain them to your apron...

I so much agree!

My mother was one of the parents you describe. I could write a book. What gets me, I had three older siblings to whom she gave more freedom. I was little for my age (while growing up,) so she always treated me that way. So many things I wasn't allowed to do. She was always in fear that I could be 'kidnapped.' I begged for her to let me prove myself to her, but she wouldn't have any part of it. I'd even overhear my parents arguing about this, but my mom won each time (until I was about 16.) I vowed I'd NEVER do this to my kids. There's protective, and then there's ridiculous. My mother was ridiculous.

Our DD is now 18, and we've been sailing DCL since she was 7. She had sign-out privileges when she was 9, WITH rules.

 

[jimsubry]

Sure kids need to be taught not to take candy from strangers but I can't think of many safer venues than a closed DCL ship... I believe a lot of parents today over supervise their kids rather than under supervise them.

I thought the points people were making here in this thread were that there ARE a ton of kids running unsupervised on board the ships? And that was what was causing the problems?

We all have nostalgia about the "olden days" when kids got away with a lot more freedom, but they also got away with a lot more in general: bullying went unchecked, there was a lot more sex and drug taking (which, despite what the media tells us, are both on the decline amongst young people these days). Kids back then in the era of freedom were not little angels.

I'm not as concerned about the safety of kids on the ship (getting molested, drowning) as much as I am about them running wild and disturbing other people. Yes, parents need to watch their kids a little more closely. Every parent would like to think their kids are the ones who'll obey every rule they've carefully instilled in them behind their backs, but, as we're seeing from people's experiences here, it's not quite the case. Kids test limits, period.

 

[Spacedog1975]

I presume it should be fine to drop my neice or nephew off at the appropriate (and I assume supervised) play areas for their age range. I see no problem going to collect them and supervising them everywhere else.

Is this an accurate perception about the Disney cruise ships?

 

[natmom]

We first cruised when our kids were DD12 and DS7. He of course had no check out. We allowed her to have checkout, but they called us when she left and she had to tell us where she was going. She left us msgs on the room phone and white board (in the room).

Last year DS11 didn't have check out since he was in the Edge, but with the wave phones, he let us know where he was and was really good at it. DD16 had the same rules.

They also had the following: No running, no hanging out on stairs, no games in the elevators. NO ONE EVER in our cabins, and you can't be in anyone else cabin.

Also if they were approached and they felt in danger, kick, scream and run (not necessarily in that order).

In August last year Magic out of NYC DD16 and DH were in Topsiders. They noticed a crew member leering at young girls. DD got creeped (she is not easily creeped out btw )out and told DH(he also observed the behavior), and they reported the situation. A security officer spoke to both of them later on that day.

Yes, you have to be a parent and know where your kids are and know the rules. My kids are also told that if you get into trouble running around etc they can hang in the room.

We too, have conversations with our children all the time about what to do if they feel uncomfortable or are in trouble. We have a code word if they call us from somewhere and use the code word we will help them get out of the uncomfortable situation( even their friends doing something that makes them uncomfortable ie stealing,drugs). We also get them thinking on situations, say the only adult around collapses , what would you do? Not letting them leave your side never teaches them what to do. It is unrealistic to have your eyes on your children 24/7, far better off to give them knowledge for sticky situations.

 

[Ccann]

I am one to give my kids freedom based on their age and who they are with. I would not let my DD7 and DS4 out of my sight unless they were checked to the kids club. I think with the phones on the ship if she was 10 I would let her go to the kids club and call me when she got there and when she was ready to leave have to call me. If I wasnt in the room she would have to meet me and I would know how long it took for her to meet me. My daughter minds very well my DS might be 12 before he get the same privilleges as his sister.
I do not see the cruise as a babysiter and do not think it is the CMs or other respinsiblity to look after my children. I am a parent 1st and on vacation 2nd.

 

[insureman]

We first cruised when our kids were DD12 and DS7. He of course had no check out. We allowed her to have checkout, but they called us when she left and she had to tell us where she was going. She left us msgs on the room phone and white board (in the room).

Last year DS11 didn't have check out since he was in the Edge, but with the wave phones, he let us know where he was and was really good at it. DD16 had the same rules.

They also had the following: No running, no hanging out on stairs, no games in the elevators. NO ONE EVER in our cabins, and you can't be in anyone else cabin.

Also if they were approached and they felt in danger, kick, scream and run (not necessarily in that order).

In August last year Magic out of NYC DD16 and DH were in Topsiders. They noticed a crew member leering at young girls. DD got creeped (she is not easily creeped out btw )out and told DH(he also observed the behavior), and they reported the situation. A security officer spoke to both of them later on that day.

Yes, you have to be a parent and know where your kids are and know the rules. My kids are also told that if you get into trouble running around etc they can hang in the room.

That reminds me of an incident that was perpetrated by a crew member this year. From the New York Daily News"


"Disney Cruise Line failed to promptly notify police that crew member molested an 11-year-old girl in August: report
Ship surveillance cameras captured the 33-year-old dining room employee groping and forcibly kissing the girl before the Disney Dream left port. The incident was not reported to police until the next day, when it was too late for Florida officials to investigate the crime. "

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-cops-girl-11-groped-report-article-1.1351027

 

[ddixon1]

But you just said yourself that you are the person these kids come to see. So maybe you have a skewed perception bc you don't see all the kids that are ok? Just a thought not trying to stir the pot.

A very good point. Sadly, I wish this were bias in perception, on my part. Unfortunately, my profession lends my to study the data on childhood abuse, including sexual abuse. Stated again, only a very small proportion of CSA are ever reported, and a smaller subset of kids ever receive treatment.
So I am left with the stark realization that I see only the very very tip of the iceberg.
Risk assessment is flawed from the outset. Unfortunately most folks use the faulty logic "it feels safe, so it must be safe."
Cruise lines are only recently being compelled to release crime stats. And at best they seem to be reporting somewhere between 10-25% (at best) of these data.
I think that it is a grievous mistake to allow any child or teenager wander alone on a ship, especially a foreign-flagged ship. Greater safety in numbers. Not fail safe but lessens the risk.
I see over protective parents whom get in the way of child development by attempting to shield children from disappointment that stems from the typical course of development.
That is entirely distinct from putting a child directly in harms way by failing to accurately assess risk.
My son loves the kids Lab. In fact, I have a terrible time with extracting him!
However, I vetted the CM's and the environment first. I was told that they need to undergo background (including child abuse) checks.
And I gently inquire about comfort level after each visit in the programming.
Same as summer camp, religious education, sports, etc.
This is an interesting dialogue. Sadly, I'm left with the impression that many parents just don't see (or care about) the (very real) risk.
As I cannot control them, I focus in what I can do.
And sadly, I get the type of business that I wish did not exist for me.

 

[cgolf]

A very good point. Sadly, I wish this were bias in perception, on my part. Unfortunately, my profession lends my to study the data on childhood abuse, including sexual abuse. Stated again, only a very small proportion of CSA are ever reported, and a smaller subset of kids ever receive treatment.
So I am left with the stark realization that I see only the very very tip of the iceberg.
Risk assessment is flawed from the outset. Unfortunately most folks use the faulty logic "it feels safe, so it must be safe."
Cruise lines are only recently being compelled to release crime stats. And at best they seem to be reporting somewhere between 10-25% (at best) of these data.
I think that it is a grievous mistake to allow any child or teenager wander alone on a ship, especially a foreign-flagged ship. Greater safety in numbers. Not fail safe but lessens the risk.
I see over protective parents whom get in the way of child development by attempting to shield children from disappointment that stems from the typical course of development.
That is entirely distinct from putting a child directly in harms way by failing to accurately assess risk.
My son loves the kids Lab. In fact, I have a terrible time with extracting him!
However, I vetted the CM's and the environment first. I was told that they need to undergo background (including child abuse) checks.
And I gently inquire about comfort level after each visit in the programming.
Same as summer camp, religious education, sports, etc.
This is an interesting dialogue. Sadly, I'm left with the impression that many parents just don't see (or care about) the (very real) risk.
As I cannot control them, I focus in what I can do.
And sadly, I get the type of business that I wish did not exist for me.

Not to stir the pot much more but I have issues too with the blanket statement of under reporting. By what you are saying should I start looking at people differently thinking that many could be offenders, or is it still a small group. I really hope I shouldn't be looking at everyone as a threat to my DD. Is there a percentage available to back up that statement. Being in the sciences I am a numbers guy.

Our DD 16 has had the run of the ship with our permission for a couple of years, but we do keep track of her. I try to find the balance of over and under parenting, sometimes I will miss but we do our best.

Cgolf

 

[ddixon1]

As someone that use to treat sex offenders in an inpatient facility, I will remind you that a child is more likely to be assaulted by someone they know, rather than someone they don't. Not to say that a stranger won't assault a child. But, that is what the data shows.

Now, I am NOT saying a child should have complete freedom to do as they please or that you should distrust those close to you. Instead, you should start to build a good foundation for your child of age appropriate discussions about safety, provide an environment where your children can express themselves, provide supervision, build relationships with individuals that spend time with your children, etc.

But, you can not live in a bubble. Your children m must live and experience the world. Yet, you must protect your children. There is a fine balance and what might be needed for one child might not work for another.

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

Then you are familiar with the data that stipulate that children whom are abused by someone that they know are several fold more likely be victimized by a stranger? (I don't keep those exact data on hand).

It's not an either/or scenario. That's the illogic - if I cannot prevent any harm, then why bother? Or, "they are more likely to be hurt by someone familiar, so why bother trying to protect them from harm from strangers". Makes no sense to me.

(Over)-Protecting children from disappointment or getting their feelings hurt is very different from a reasonable effort to protect them from abuse or assault.

Re: how under-reporting is stipulated: via a number of statistical modeling techniques and strong research designs (not in that order).

 

[ddixon1]

Not to stir the pot much more but I have issues too with the blanket statement of under reporting. By what you are saying should I start looking at people differently thinking that many could be offenders, or is it still a small group. I really hope I shouldn't be looking at everyone as a threat to my DD. Is there a percentage available to back up that statement. Being in the sciences I am a numbers guy.

Our DD 16 has had the run of the ship with our permission for a couple of years, but we do keep track of her. I try to find the balance of over and under parenting, sometimes I will miss but we do our best.

Cgolf

Great points, but its not a blanket statement a.k.a. opinion.

As a numbers guy, please feel free to avail yourself to decades-long research regarding child harm.

Sadly for women, at least 25% of all women will report sexual assault by their senior year of college.

Parenting sucks. Our first and most important job is to protect them from harm. The cosmic joke (not funny) is that we are doomed to fail!

So we are left with nurturing them.

Anxiety and paranoia are not terribly helpful, but gut-level instincts are.

I like the book "The gift of fear" by Galven de Becker.

A good read for a dad of a teenager!

And for her, too!

 

[P'colaBeachBum]

The world is a vastly different place from I grew up in the 50's and 60's. Sexual predators or child porn was not heard of. Not saying it didn't exist, but it was not prevalent in the news as it is today. When we cruised on the Big Red Boat our DD was 10. She stayed with us 24/7 because it was a "family" vacation. We were very comfortable knowing our child was safe because WE had her with us. She is now a very independent woman with a great career. Bottom line (IMHO)...the ship and the CM's are not responsible for the behavior of your children nor should they be. I understand the clubs for kids, but don't let those lull you into a false sense of security and letting them run freely thru the ship.