Kerry criticizes election outcome

[dmadman43]

Poor dmadman, He does not understand what is happening in his own state and is focuing on the wrong issues. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/aplocal_story.asp?category=6420&slug=WA Election Challenge Legal But there is both good and bad news for dmadman. At least one GOP lawyer has read the Washington State Constitution and as a result, a challenge has finally be filed with the body with jurisdiction over the issue, the Washington State Legislature. See http://www.boston.com/dailynews/023/nation/Republicans_file_challenge_in_:.shtml But dmadman should not his hopes up too much because these challenges have no chance. Dmadman, I will be glad to explain to you what is going on in Washington since you have been wrong in all of your claims so far. Remember, illegal votes do not matter one little bit unless the courts have jurisdiction over the issue and the Washington Constitution is prettly clear that only the Legislature and not the courts have jurisdicton.

Given your past history in legal debates on this board, I'll pass on the offer of an explanation/. I'll take the advice of the election attornies we have hired, not the advice of a contract jockey. Thanks for the kind offer, though.

 

[dmadman43]

It appears that dmadman has given up his amusing attempt to mislead the board about what is going on in Washtingon state and so let gets back to the original topic, i.e. whether Senator Kerry should have commented on the election results and voter intimidation by the GOP.

Here are some more examples why the GOP is the part of voter intimidation and fraud. See http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oId=16368 The fact that a conservative on this thread accused the democrats of cheating is just wrong and misguided. It is the GOP that is the part of voter intimidation and voter fraud.

Which conservative has accused democrats of cheating? I question the way the King and Snohomish County elections board handled the recount in WA., but as you should well know, that is a non-partisan arm of govt.

 

[dmadman43]

An interesting quote for John Fund's book, Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy " related to the WA election...

Both the Miami Herald and the Palm Beach Post found that, if anything, county officials were too permissive in whom they allowed to vote, and that this largely benefited Al Gore. An analysis by the Post found that 5,600 people whose names matched the names of convicted felons who should have been disqualified were permitted to cast their ballots. "These illegal voters almost certainly influenced the down-to-the-wire presidential election," the Post reported. "It's likely they benefited Democratic candidate Al Gore. Of the likely felons identified by the Post, 68 percent were registered Democrats."

Not suggesting that all votes by felons are cast for Democrats. Simply just pointing out a interesting bit of data...

 

[WWTBAMFAN]

Which conservative has accused democrats of cheating?

Your reading comprehension leaves a great deal to be desired. I had gone back to the original topic of this thread and was referring to your fellow freeper, Rokkitsci. Next, time you might actually read the post before you comment.

Dmadman, as to Washington governor's contest, you are so clueless as to what is going on, it is amusing and sad. The best analysis that I have read of the Washington Governor litigation is that no one seriously thinks that the challenges by Dino the sore loser has any chance but this is an effective way of undermining the duly elected governor of the State of Washington. The fact that Dino and the Washington GOP are misleading poor people like you is sad but typical for the GOP. I am sorry but if you think that there is any meaningful chance that the courts after all appeals will order a revote, then you are wrong.

dmadman, the State Constitution of Washington is very clear. The Washington legislature has sole jurisdiction of any disputes with respect to the governor's election which means that the lawsuit is a nullity. That is why Dino the crybaby just filed a challenge with the Washington legislature.

I would love to debate the Washington topic with you but (a) it is off topic for this thread and (b) you would have to make an arguement and use some logic instead of making pronouncments without authority or logic that you are right and I am wrong. MSM has done a good job of covering the dispute and you clearly do not know what is going on in this matter.

 

[Laura]

I would love to debate the Washington topic with you but (a) it is off topic for this thread and (b) you would have to make an arguement and use some logic instead of making pronouncments without authority or logic that you are right and I am wrong. MSM has done a good job of covering the dispute and you clearly do not know what is going on in this matter.

Seems like you're the one doing the debating and Davy's doing the whining.

 

[BuckNaked]

Seems like you're the one doing the debating and Davy's doing the whining.

Again, I'm not getting that - dmadman is talking about what is actually happening, based on being there and being involved in it, and WWTBAMFAN is referencing second hand information from a biased site.

 

[WWTBAMFAN]

dmadman

Mainstream Media is now covering the briefs filed in this case. It looks very bad for Dino the soreloserman. See http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002158911_election24m.html

OLYMPIA — The Democrats' on-again, off-again threat to force the governor's election dispute to the Legislature — which their party controls — is definitely on again.

We believe that the courts have no jurisdiction to hear an election contest for the office of governor," Democratic attorney Jenny Durkan said in Chelan County Superior Court last week.

The state constitution, Democrats say, requires a legislative settlement to the disputed election of Gov. Christine Gregoire, a Democrat.....

But in the court papers filed Friday, Democratic attorneys full embraced the Legislature as the proper place to settle the election.

In court, Democrats rely on a legal diagramming of the sentence in the constitution that Brown read. They say the clause "shall be decided" is modified by the phrase "by the Legislature" and means the Legislature decides, not that the Legislature is to pass a law that shall be used to decide.

The Democrats' court filing quotes debate at the state constitutional convention in 1889 where the chairman of the committee who drafted the election contest section, Republican Allen Weir, said, "these partisan contests should be determined by the Legislature."

There's only been one previous governor's election contested. That was in 1941 after Republican Arthur Langlie won by a narrow margin, amid charges from Democrats of fraud.

The Legislature met in joint session and rejected a motion to send the issue to a special investigative committee, stopping the election contest.

Democrats say that shows the Legislature has "accepted its exclusive jurisdiction over election contests for the office of governor."

The fact that one prior election dispute for Governor was adjudicated by the legislature is very presuasive. Again, the constitutional issues will control this dispute and dmadman should not get his hopes up.

 

[dmadman43]

dmadman, the State Constitution of Washington is very clear. The Washington legislature has sole jurisdiction of any disputes with respect to the governor's election which means that the lawsuit is a nullity. That is why Dino the crybaby just filed a challenge with the Washington legislature.

If that was the case then why didn't the judge just throw out the case?

I would love to debate the Washington topic with you but (a) it is off topic for this thread and (b) you would have to make an arguement and use some logic instead of making pronouncments without authority or logic that you are right and I am wrong. MSM has done a good job of covering the dispute and you clearly do not know what is going on in this matter.

Again we see why the best you can do is be a contract jockey. I'm done debating this with someone who only gets selective information from the MSM. If you were in involved with the Gregoire campaign or with the Gregoire legal team...which would actually be quite funny when one thinks about it...then you would come across as a bit more credible on the subject. As it stands, you look about a knowledgable as you did on the Geneva Convention debate.

 

[dmadman43]

Seems like you're the one doing the debating and Davy's doing the whining.

Was I able to provide you the information you requested? I'm happy to give you more details. Or are you just interested in piling on?

 

[WWTBAMFAN]

If that was the case then why didn't the judge just throw out the case?

The hearing on whether the judge will throw out the case is set for Feb. 4. After seeing the Democratic briefs, Dino the sore loser filed a challenge in the Washington state legislature in order to cover his bases. This should be a fun hearing. Even if the judge does not rule in the democrats favor now, the appeals courts and the Washington Supreme Court must consider this issue. These appeals may be completed by the 2008 elections but you never know.

 

[AllyandJack]

I wonder if Kerry has an issue with the fact that in his own state (MA), I was able to walk into a city I don't live in and never have lived in and register to vote as a Democrat.

When I heard that my parents didn't have to show ID to register to vote in their new city (my parents registered Democrat, but voted Republican), I walked in and said I wanted to register. The man asked me what party, I said Democrat. He told me no ID was necessary and let me register. It was only AFTER I stood there and told him that, not only am I not a resident of this city, I don't even live in this state, that he took me off the rolls and told me that what I did was illegal and I'm lucky he doesn't report me.

I reported HIM to the state, but, naturally, nobody cared. Maybe I should let Kerry know about this and have him do something about it.

 

[KarenC]

I wonder if Kerry has an issue with the fact that in his own state (MA), I was able to walk into a city I don't live in and never have lived in and register to vote as a Democrat.

When I heard that my parents didn't have to show ID to register to vote in their new city (my parents registered Democrat, but voted Republican), I walked in and said I wanted to register. The man asked me what party, I said Democrat. He told me no ID was necessary and let me register. It was only AFTER I stood there and told him that, not only am I not a resident of this city, I don't even live in this state, that he took me off the rolls and told me that what I did was illegal and I'm lucky he doesn't report me.

I reported HIM to the state, but, naturally, nobody cared. Maybe I should let Kerry know about this and have him do something about it.

The Massachusett's Secretary of State's website indicates that you must register to vote 20 days before the election and that a voters registration confirmation will be sent to the address you registered at. I would expect that if the confirmation were returned by the post office because there was no such person at the address, your registration would be taken off the rolls.

http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/eleifv/howreg.htm

 

[WWTBAMFAN]

AllyandJack

In order to registered to vote, you would have to swear under oath (the oath is built into the form) that you were duly qualified to vote and met the requirements. If you had signed the application and completed the registration, you would have violated several laws and would be subject to criminal prosecution. As noted above, there are other checks such as verification of address by the certifed mail.

What dmadman and the GOP wants to do in Washington state is to declare the entire election as void because some individual voters may have violated the law. The remedy is to prosecute such voters.

Dmadman cites a book review for the concept that it is okay to kick any one off a voting list if there names are similar to a convicted felon. That is what was done in Florida in 2000 and it was wrong. Jeb tried to do the same in 2004 was dropped the attemp when sued. The 2000 purge eliminated thousands of eligible voters (all of whom were minorities) without proof that they were really felons. The voter purge is one of the examples that I have cited as typical illegal GOP voter suppression tactics.

 

[BuckNaked]

The Massachusett's Secretary of State's website indicates that you must register to vote 20 days before the election and that a voters registration confirmation will be sent to the address you registered at. I would expect that if the confirmation were returned by the post office because there was no such person at the address, your registration would be taken off the rolls.

http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/eleifv/howreg.htm

I still problems with this process, in that without requiring any kind of identification, the registrar still would not know if the person is eligible to vote. A person could register with a valid address, receive and return the confirmation and still not be legally eligible to vote. To me, it's not so much an issue of people that aren't living there registering to vote, but rather people that are living there that shouldn't be able to vote.

What dmadman and the GOP wants to do in Washington state is to declare the entire election as void because some individual voters may have violated the law. The remedy is to prosecute such voters.

I've not followed this case closely, but my understanding is that there is no way to prosecute the invalid voters because ballots (provisional, absentee, and "regular", for lack of a better term) have all been mixed up together so that there is no way to tell which ballots/votes were valid and which weren't.

 

[wvrevy]

I'm just curious....Why would ANYONE be against a federal takeover of the election process ? Almost all corruption happens on the local level with graveyard votes and such. Why not allow federal oversight - as transparent as possible - to assure fairness in ALL places ?

What are Repugnicans so afraid of that they're fighting against this ? Would the person who posted at the beginning of this thread that the "majority" that has shown up to "overcome democrats cheating" please answer that (that is, if they can stop patting themselves on the back long enough to do so) ?

Who is against fair elections ? For crying out loud, we've got the technology available...why isn't it being used ? Is there anything MORE important in this "democracy" of ours than ensuring fair elections ?

 

[WWTBAMFAN]

I've not followed this case closely, but my understanding is that there is no way to prosecute the invalid voters because ballots (provisional, absentee, and "regular", for lack of a better term) have all been mixed up together so that there is no way to tell which ballots/votes were valid and which weren't.

The persons who voted illegally committed a crime and can easily be prosecuted for that crime. There is a paper trail of the people signing the voter registration book with they voted and if they voted illegally, then they should be prosecuted.

What the GOP wants to do is to declare the entire election void and have a "do'over" which not authorized by Washington law. Washington law is clear that the proper remedy is to file a challenge with the Washington state legislature. It is interesting that such protest was not filed until after the GOP had a chance to read the democratic briefing in the case. Evidently, after reading the briefs, the GOP decided that they had better cover their bases by complying with the Washington State Constitution.

BTW, I understand that there is a real question under Washington law about revotes. See http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20050123/topstories/74022.shtml The Washingon State election code does not authorize this a remedy and a re-vote may require an amendment of the Washington constitution and the change of the rules for raising campaign funds under the Washington election code.

 

[dmadman43]

Why do you continue to choose to look ill-informed about the WA State. Gov. election? Stick to contract law or you might end up having your red stapler taken away.

Would that it were so easy to track down and prosecute those that may have voted illegally. One small problem. After poring through the data more deeply this weekend we have found that the King County vote is off my more than 3700 votes. Now, we originally started with about 350 "unverified provisional ballots". Unverified!!! How do you track down an unverivied voter? Then we had 1800 MORE BALLOTS THAN VOTERS!!! How do you find 1800 more people than actually voted????

This issue has much more do than with illegal votes. But, I could not expect you to know that, what with your limited information and background on the issue.

 

[dmadman43]

I've not followed this case closely, but my understanding is that there is no way to prosecute the invalid voters because ballots (provisional, absentee, and "regular", for lack of a better term) have all been mixed up together so that there is no way to tell which ballots/votes were valid and which weren't.

And neither has flkhou, but that doesn't prevent him from pretending to be an expert. You are absolutely right. There is no paper trail to link back to some of these said voters.

 

[BuckNaked]

I'm just curious....Why would ANYONE be against a federal takeover of the election process ? Almost all corruption happens on the local level with graveyard votes and such. Why not allow federal oversight - as transparent as possible - to assure fairness in ALL places ?

Speaking for myself, I'm not against a federal takeover, however I don't see how it can possibly be done without a Constitutional amendment. And on that same track, I don't see any way that the states will ever agree to give up the power that they have to run their own elections. So to me, it's a matter of sure it would be nice, but I don't see it ever happening.

 

[AllyandJack]

The Massachusett's Secretary of State's website indicates that you must register to vote 20 days before the election and that a voters registration confirmation will be sent to the address you registered at. I would expect that if the confirmation were returned by the post office because there was no such person at the address, your registration would be taken off the rolls.

http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/eleifv/howreg.htm

I used my parents' address. I can get mail there...I have gotten mail there because they filed a "family" change of address. So, the voter registration would have been fine. Had the guy asked me for ID, he would have seen I wasn't even a resident of MA.

When I registered in NH, I had to show a valid driver's license to prove I lived in the state. Yet, in MA, I could register wherever I wanted....my friend had no problems registering in Cambridge (she did live there) with no ID.

I just think that if an investigation is going to occur, there needs to be some investigation as to why people are being allowed to vote without proper ID. What if I was an illegal alien with a valid address? This needs to be looked into, as well as issues with the machines, etc.

Personally, I think stopping people who shouldn't be voting is as important as making sure those who should vote are able to vote and that those votes are counted. I would welcome a massive overhaul of the election process.

ETA: I just called my parents...they never received any kind of confirmation in the mail regarding their voter registration. But, they had no problem going in and voting on Election Day. Yet again the system fails. There are obviously massive problems all around.