Just realized I REALLY hate the phrase, "she's not a girly-girl"! (Warning - rant.)

[Magpie]

The other day, a couple of women were on the morning show promoting their "Girl Expo". It sounds marvelous - basically a trade show promoting sports and science-type activities for little girls. I completely support their goals.

But, it really got under my skin the way the two ladies were proudly saying their daughters weren't "girly-girls" (said with faint tone of disgust) and how they'd created this trade show as a way of providing something for all those special girls who are "creative" and "smart" and "ambitious"... everything "girly-girls" apparently aren't.

And here's what I want to know - why is "girly" and "like a girl" an insult? "Boyish" isn't an insult. Heck, it's practically a compliment. "She's such a tom-boy!" "He's a REAL boy!" "He's all boy!"

I also used to be the kind of little girl that my mother proudly told her friends wasn't "girly". I wore overalls and climbed the little tree in front of our downtown apartment building and said I didn't like girls and only wanted to play with boys. Why? Because boys were the gold standard. Dresses were dumb. Jeans were cool. Cooking was dumb. Baseball was cool. If girls did it, it was dumb. If boys did it, it was cool.

I wanted to be a boy SO bad, not because I was confused about my gender, but because I understood very well that girls could only ever aspire to be as good as boys. They weren't the real deal, and never would be.

But, you know what? I grew up and discovered I enjoy cooking. I like pretty dresses. I find sports boring. I like being a woman.

And somehow, entertainingly, I've raised a fashion-conscious son who is an excellent and highly creative cook, and I've raised a daughter who can't be bothered with fashion and does all her "cooking" in a bio lab. Not because I ever consciously set out to avoid raising a "girly girl", but because she just never was one. Whereas when my boy was four, he liked princess dresses. And now he's 19 and when he comes over, he shows me the latest designers and what they're doing (seriously weird stuff, imo).

I think what annoys me is that four decades on, it appears mothers are still trying to raise their daughters to be just like a boy. Instead of celebrating them for whomever they happen to be.

Putting more value on traditionally male pastimes and pursuits doesn't just devalue girls, it limits the options for all children, girls and boys both.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

You've basically just described my kids.
I couldn't agree more. This is my daughter on the first day of 5th grade. I absolutely adore her! (Not just because she share my genetics)

... And my son starts his first day of dance class today

*I read your original post too quickly and I think missed the point. I'm still going to leave this here though because she's adorable.

 

[cabanafrau]

First, it's not only mothers raising daughters, or children in general.

Second, I didn't find myself celebrating who my daughters were so much as hanging on tight and trying to keep up with what they wanted to do. They didn't seem to have any awareness being girls had anything to do with their preferences, nor did being female and sisters indicate their choices would be the same.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

kids just are who they are and don't need labels.

 

[princesspiglet]

I totally agree. My family used to always say about my daughter- "oh, she's not a girly girl" and I could never understand it. True, she was into legos and dump trucks more than barbies and she hated pink and wearing dresses, but she was still a girl. She is now 15 and still hates dresses, but rose gold is her favorite color and she is very into fashion, design, and makeup. She also still climbs trees and rides her skateboard with her black chucks, Green Day t-shirt and backwards ballcap on..... I've never pushed her either way and have just let her develop into who she is supposed to be.

 

[Magpie]

You've basically just described my kids.
I couldn't agree more. This is my daughter on the first day of 5th grade. I absolutely adore her! (Not just because she share my genetics)

... And my son starts his first day of dance class today

*I read your original post too quickly and I think missed the point. I'm still going to leave this here though because she's adorable.
View attachment 269515

Your daughter IS adorable! I love that photo.

Yes, our kids are very much alike. I just called my daughter over to show her your daughter's picture and she went, "Awww...!"

 

[Magpie]

First, it's not only mothers raising daughters, or children in general.

Second, I didn't find myself celebrating who my daughters were so much as hanging on tight and trying to keep up with what they wanted to do. They didn't seem to have any awareness being girls had anything to do with their preferences, nor did being female and sisters indicate their choices would be the same.

1. You're right. I used the term "mothers" because I was raised by a single mother and both the women on TV were mothers. But, all sorts of people raise children. Fathers, grandparents, relatives, caregivers, etc.

2. I definitely celebrated both of my kids. I thought they were amazing when they were born, and I still feel that way.

I once commented, in reaction to a mother who never seemed to be able to say a single nice thing about her daughter, that I believed parents ought to be their children's biggest fans, not their harshest critics. If your parent doesn't think you're terrific, who will?

3. Having one boy and one girl meant that my children were very aware of gender roles in our house. And if they didn't exist, the kids would create them. It was a way of differentiating themselves from each other. If the girl liked something, it very quickly became a "girl-thing". If the boy liked something, it was a "boy-thing". Didn't matter what the thing was, or even if it was usually labeled that way in broader society. I still remember my small daughter announcing confidently, from the back seat of our car, that, "Mommies don't drive!" Eeep. Gently pointed out to her that her mommy doesn't drive, because her mommy's eyes don't work like they should. But, lots of other people's mommies drive, and some people's daddies don't drive. Anyone can drive! Or not, as the case may be.

I suspect all siblings try to establish themselves as individuals, in opposition to each other. Gender is an easy dividing line, but one of our neighbours has two daughters... as small kids they identified themselves as the sporty one and the bookish one.

 

[disneychrista]

I never thought of a "girly-girl" as being an insult.

 

[Colleen27]

I never really thought of it that way. I tend to use it more as a descriptor of style than of personality, I guess.

My older DD isn't a girly-girl. When I say that, I'm talking about the fact that she lives in combat boots, doesn't like shopping, and isn't into fashion or trends. She'd wear nothing but jeans and band tees other than on the rare occasion she dresses up, and when she does that she hates frilly or sparkly and goes out of her way to buck trends. Even her school uniforms are that way - she only wears pants except on mass days (when girls have to wear their plaid) and buys them mostly from Salvation Army because she'd rather have her wardrobe money for concert tees and Hot Topic.

My younger DD is very much a girly-girl. She cares more about her hair & makeup at 9 than older DD does at 16, and I've had to explain to her more than once that she can't wear frilly party dresses to barn duty shifts or when hiking in the woods. I couldn't even tell you how many pairs of booty shorts she has because she loves skirts but doesn't love "acting like a lady" in those skirts, so I insist on shorts underneath, and her school uniforms are all skirts and jumpers. Even in the winter she wears skirts with sweater tights and legwarmers, rather than just wearing pants.

But they've done a lot of the same activities and share a lot of interests, at least for now (DD9 adores DD16, so a lot of her interests started with imitating big sis - I expect that will start to change as she gets a bit older). Baseball is a great illustration of the difference between not-girly DD and girly-girl DD. Not-girly DD happily wore plain black hand-me-down cleats & helmet from her brother and picked out a nondescript brown mitt because she liked the feel of it; girly-girl DD asked for a matched set of black-and-pink cleats, glove, and helmet for Christmas before her second season. But they both played ball. And actually, non-girly-girl DD was the one more into dolls when she was small, while my girly little one has appropriated her 19yo brother's giant collection of Legos and joined the Lego robotics team at school.

 

[L&Lfan]

I don't mind it....I take it to mean she's not very feminine. I understand the sentiment. She's more tomboyish than girly girl. I was referred to as a girly boy growing up...and they were right, hunty!

 

[kimblebee]

It's just as bad as 'boys will be boys'. How does that make bad behaviour ok?

 

[Klayfish]

You go, girl!!

I've never seen "girly girl" as an insult. What's wrong with a girl liking things girls traditionally like?? Kind of reminds me of that commercial...I think it's for Navy Federal Credit Union. Marine (I think) is talking about how his daughter painted her room pink (describing it as if he were stepping into a dangerous situation). He then says "So she's a princess...you got a problem with that?" I completely agree.

DD10 is sort of a mix of things. She loves to cook with DW...but then again I love to cook too. She likes doing her nails and her hair, but isn't "over the top" with it. She likes pink and purple. She's also a lacrosse player and is starting to get more rough and tumble about it. I'm proud of each and every one of those characteristics.

 

[DopeyDame]

OP, I LOVE your post and your point. Amen and Alleluia - shout it from the rooftops.

I'm a woman engineer and really heavily involved in girls in STEM outreach. And I *hate* when STEM activities sell themselves as anti-girly-girl or some such crap.

Girls need TWO messages in relation to STEM. We've become really good at the first message, often times at the expense of the second message:

1. You can like cars and trucks and mud and guck and climb trees and get dirty and love math and science even if you're a girl. Those aren't boy things or girl things, they're just awesome things.
2. You can like princesses and pink castles and ballet and ponies, and still love math and science! Those aren't boy things or girl things, they're just awesome things.

There's definitely an insidious underlying message sometimes that you have to be a tom-boy or not a "girly girl" to fit in with the girls-in-STEM movement. And I hate it. Wear your pink tutu or wear your overalls. Climb trees or bake cookies. None of those things define your existence as a girl, and none of them have didly to do with your abilities in math or science.

 

[Magpie]

OP, I LOVE your post and your point. Amen and Alleluia - shout it from the rooftops.

I'm a woman engineer and really heavily involved in girls in STEM outreach. And I *hate* when STEM activities sell themselves as anti-girly-girl or some such crap.

Girls need TWO messages in relation to STEM. We've become really good at the first message, often times at the expense of the second message:

1. You can like cars and trucks and mud and guck and climb trees and get dirty and love math and science even if you're a girl. Those aren't boy things or girl things, they're just awesome things.
2. You can like princesses and pink castles and ballet and ponies, and still love math and science! Those aren't boy things or girl things, they're just awesome things.

There's definitely an insidious underlying message sometimes that you have to be a tom-boy or not a "girly girl" to fit in with the girls-in-STEM movement. And I hate it. Wear your pink tutu or wear your overalls. Climb trees or bake cookies. None of those things define your existence as a girl, and none of them have didly to do with your abilities in math or science.

Woo-hoo! Well said!

I just read this aloud to my daughter and she exclaimed, "Baking is chemistry! It's not the kind of chemistry I like, but it's still chemistry!"

(To put it in context, she was recently complaining about having to work with those great, hulking, oversized plant cells. She prefers her science at a molecular level. )

You're right about how insidious the message is, too. My daughter actually felt guilty at one point for going into biology because she'd somehow got the idea that it's a "softer science", and because she had the grades, talent and skill set to be able to tackle something like physics, she was letting womankind down. Once I got over the surprise that biology is apparently considered "soft" these days, I realized that it may not be entirely coincidental that biology is also one of the disciplines that attract the most women. I've read that historically, whenever women have moved into any profession, men leave and the status of the profession falls. "Once women start doing a job, “It just doesn’t look like it’s as important to the bottom line or requires as much skill,” said Paula England, a sociology professor at New York University." (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/...le-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html?mcubz=0)

 

[gillep]

Woo-hoo! Well said!

I just read this aloud to my daughter and she exclaimed, "Baking is chemistry! It's not the kind of chemistry I like, but it's still chemistry!"

(To put it in context, she was recently complaining about having to work with those great, hulking, oversized plant cells. She prefers her science at a molecular level. )

You're right about how insidious the message is, too. My daughter actually felt guilty at one point for going into biology because she'd somehow got the idea that it's a "softer science", and because she had the grades, talent and skill set to be able to tackle something like physics, she was letting womankind down. Once I got over the surprise that biology is apparently considered "soft" these days, I realized that it may not be entirely coincidental that biology is also one of the disciplines that attract the most women. I've read that historically, whenever women have moved into any profession, men leave and the status of the profession falls. "Once women start doing a job, “It just doesn’t look like it’s as important to the bottom line or requires as much skill,” said Paula England, a sociology professor at New York University." (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/...le-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html?mcubz=0)

I have both of my degrees in the biological sciences and it is definitely still seen as 'the lesser of the sciences', and by far has the most women, but over the years I have seen many more women pursue math, physics, chemistry and engineering than when I was first starting out, so who knows what the future may bring. I went to an engineering undergrad that was still 75% men back in the early 2000s, although the President of our school was a very accomplished and well respected woman.

It is interesting the different perspectives people have on these things, girly-girl was never used in a derogatory manner in our house growing up, in fact, my mom was upset that I wanted to chase after my brother and his friends in jeans, and was totally unwilling to dress up in the skirts, dresses, and flouncy things she bought me. She always wanted a girly-girl princess, and was constantly trying to get me to conform to that. As I have gotten older I have definitely swung more that way in my style, but man did I annoy her as a kid!

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I never knew "girly girl" was an insult.

My DD is a girly girl. She likes all of the traditional girly things. Makeup, glitter, hair stuff, dresses, cute shoes, etc. And then I see her outside climbing a tree in a dress and sandals. She can be who and what she wants but she has to climb a tree without her bottom showing and appropriate footwear.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I never knew "girly girl" was an insult.

My DD is a girly girl. She likes all of the traditional girly things. Makeup, glitter, hair stuff, dresses, cute shoes, etc. And then I see her outside climbing a tree in a dress and sandals. She can be who and what she wants but she has to climb a tree without her bottom showing and appropriate footwear.

I think it's this idea some people have developed that "girly"=weak.

Like a girl who loves princesses is a damsel in distress or a girl who loves to play house and dolls will be "just a mom" dependent on her husband.

We all know that's not true.

Some people on FB were offended hat my friend's daughter said she wants to be "a mommy... just a mommy" when she grows up. Like that's not enough... I just rolled my eyes at those people. There isn't a single weak thing about this little girl and she'll make a kick butt mom one day!

 

[Jennasis]

I just don't do labels.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I think it's this idea some people have developed that "girly"=weak.

Like a girl who loves princesses is a damsel in distress or a girl who loves to play house and dolls will be "just a mom" dependent on her husband.

We all know that's not true.

Some people on FB were offended hat my friend's daughter said she wants to be "a mommy... just a mommy" when she grows up. Like that's not enough... I just rolled my eyes at those people. There isn't a single weak thing about this little girl and she'll make a kick butt mom one day!

I've always seen the opposite. Friends and family "upset" that their DD's are "tomboys."

But I do see that side. I say just let everyone be who they want and move it along. If they aren't hurting anyone let them live.

 

[Magpie]

I have both of my degrees in the biological sciences and it is definitely still seen as 'the lesser of the sciences', and by far has the most women, but over the years I have seen many more women pursue math, physics, chemistry and engineering than when I was first starting out, so who knows what the future may bring. I went to an engineering undergrad that was still 75% men back in the early 2000s, although the President of our school was a very accomplished and well respected woman.

It is interesting the different perspectives people have on these things, girly-girl was never used in a derogatory manner in our house growing up, in fact, my mom was upset that I wanted to chase after my brother and his friends in jeans, and was totally unwilling to dress up in the skirts, dresses, and flouncy things she bought me. She always wanted a girly-girl princess, and was constantly trying to get me to conform to that. As I have gotten older I have definitely swung more that way in my style, but man did I annoy her as a kid!

The different perspectives really are fascinating, and I'm really pleased with the varied and thoughtful responses in this thread.

My mom was very proud of her "tom-boy" and imagined I'd grow up to be a captain of industry, or some such thing. Instead, to her immense disappointment, she got a housewife for a daughter. I showed her my very glittery nail polish the other day and said, "Don't you think my fingers are pretty?" And, just as I knew she would, she winced and said, "No. I don't." She also hates the bows I put in my hair, so occasionally I make sure to wear one just for her. (I love my mom, really! But I also enjoy irritating her.)

I hope the future is an egalitarian one, in all professions!