Just realized I REALLY hate the phrase, "she's not a girly-girl"! (Warning - rant.)

[Magpie]

I never knew "girly girl" was an insult.

My DD is a girly girl. She likes all of the traditional girly things. Makeup, glitter, hair stuff, dresses, cute shoes, etc. And then I see her outside climbing a tree in a dress and sandals. She can be who and what she wants but she has to climb a tree without her bottom showing and appropriate footwear.

Most of the little girls I know wear shorts under their princess dresses. Solves the tree-climbing, jungle-gym-swinging issue!

Also, tree climbing is always best done in bare feet.

 

[DopeyDame]

The different perspectives really are fascinating, and I'm really pleased with the varied and thoughtful responses in this thread.

My mom was very proud of her "tom-boy" and imagined I'd grow up to be a captain of industry, or some such thing. Instead, to her immense disappointment, she got a housewife for a daughter. I showed her my very glittery nail polish the other day and said, "Don't you think my fingers are pretty?" And, just as I knew she would, she winced and said, "No. I don't." She also hates the bows I put in my hair, so occasionally I make sure to wear one just for her. (I love my mom, really! But I also enjoy irritating her.)

I hope the future is an egalitarian one, in all professions!

LOL! You can come show my mom your sparkly nails and she'll adore them!
She's always trying to give me makeup and convince me to dress up more

 

[Magpie]

LOL! You can come show my mom your sparkly nails and she'll adore them!
She's always trying to give me makeup and convince me to dress up more

Dressing up, I love that (though I don't do it every day - my "work clothes" are jeans and a graphic tee)! And I love to change the colours on my nails every few days.

But, I'm right with you on the makeup. I don't like the feel of it on my face. And I don't think I really need it, since my colouring is fairly strong and my eyes are hidden behind very thick glasses. Interestingly, my mom insists on giving me make up, too. And constantly tells me I need to start a skin care routine, so my face doesn't... I dunno, turn to leather on my 65th birthday? So maybe it's a generational thing? My mom can't go out in the morning without spending at least 40 minutes "putting on her face".

I think my face is just fine as it is, thank you!

 

[gillep]

Dressing up, I love that (though I don't do it every day - my "work clothes" are jeans and a graphic tee)! And I love to change the colours on my nails every few days.

But, I'm right with you on the makeup. I don't like the feel of it on my face. And I don't think I really need it, since my colouring is fairly strong and my eyes are hidden behind very thick glasses. Interestingly, my mom insists on giving me make up, too. And constantly tells me I need to start a skin care routine, so my face doesn't... I dunno, turn to leather on my 65th birthday? So maybe it's a generational thing? My mom can't go out in the morning without spending at least 40 minutes "putting on her face".

I think my face is just fine as it is, thank you!

My mom is the same way with her makeup! I have never seen her without it, unless we run into one another in the wee hours of the morning. I, on the other hand, have never even worn foundation, and only wear makeup when 'going out' with my husband or friends, but not to Target or something like that. Even then, it is usually just concealer (hereditary under-eye circles), blush, and mascara, occasionally eye makeup if I am trying to be more adventurous, which usually involves failing at following some much more accomplished 15 year old doing a YouTube tutorial.

 

[Magpie]

My mom is the same way with her makeup! I have never seen her without it, unless we run into one another in the wee hours of the morning. I, on the other hand, have never even worn foundation, and only wear makeup when 'going out' with my husband or friends, but not to Target or something like that. Even then, it is usually just concealer (hereditary under-eye circles), blush, and mascara, occasionally eye makeup if I am trying to be more adventurous, which usually involves failing at following some much more accomplished 15 year old doing a YouTube tutorial.

Yep, been there!

 

[cabanafrau]

1. You're right. I used the term "mothers" because I was raised by a single mother and both the women on TV were mothers. But, all sorts of people raise children. Fathers, grandparents, relatives, caregivers, etc.

2. I definitely celebrated both of my kids. I thought they were amazing when they were born, and I still feel that way.

I once commented, in reaction to a mother who never seemed to be able to say a single nice thing about her daughter, that I believed parents ought to be their children's biggest fans, not their harshest critics. If your parent doesn't think you're terrific, who will?

3. Having one boy and one girl meant that my children were very aware of gender roles in our house. And if they didn't exist, the kids would create them. It was a way of differentiating themselves from each other. If the girl liked something, it very quickly became a "girl-thing". If the boy liked something, it was a "boy-thing". Didn't matter what the thing was, or even if it was usually labeled that way in broader society. I still remember my small daughter announcing confidently, from the back seat of our car, that, "Mommies don't drive!" Eeep. Gently pointed out to her that her mommy doesn't drive, because her mommy's eyes don't work like they should. But, lots of other people's mommies drive, and some people's daddies don't drive. Anyone can drive! Or not, as the case may be.

I suspect all siblings try to establish themselves as individuals, in opposition to each other. Gender is an easy dividing line, but one of our neighbours has two daughters... as small kids they identified themselves as the sporty one and the bookish one.

I didn't in any way imply that I had nothing nice to say about or to my daughters or that I didn't find them amazing. I feel I was supportive of them being who they are by letting them lead the way as much as possible -- matter of fact I'm not sure how I could have stopped it if I'd tried. They've always been the type of people who like what they like without being bothered about what other people have to say about it. I'm sure there are a wide variety of people who know one or the other of my daughters who would say she is very girlie and someone who knows her from another area of her life who would say she's not girlie at all.

One of my daughters used the caption "Assuming I am like every other girl was your first mistake." on one of her grad photo boards displaying photos of herself encased in makeup, glitter, costumes and innumerable hairdos from her years in dance and performing in school musicals; coaching archery; covered in mud and toting heavy lumber helping build and landscape a community playground; and demonstrating footwork for throwing a shotput. Her sister's comment was, let them assume, that way they never see you coming. I can't say she's wrong in her idea to use others' misconceptions and preconceived notions to her advantage.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

I get your rant. Internalized misogyny is so prevelent. The whole not a "girly-girl" thing persists into adulthood as the "cool girl" not like other girls trope.

I don't think girly girl is used as an insult but I think "not a girly girl" is seen as better. Those are two different things to me.

"I think feminism is dumb, I'm just one of the guys, see I'm cool-unlike the rest of my gender". Ugh, it's even worse being in tech. You can be alternative manic pixie dream girl girly with bright purple hair and piercings, but if you want to dress traditionally feminine and rock a full face of makeup then somehow the perception is you're "not really technical." Women perpetuate this crap too which is the worst.

 

[ashley0139]

I didn't in any way imply that I had nothing nice to say about or to my daughters or that I didn't find them amazing. I feel I was supportive of them being who they are by letting them lead the way as much as possible -- matter of fact I'm not sure how I could have stopped it if I'd tried. They've always been the type of people who like what they like without being bothered about what other people have to say about it. I'm sure there are a wide variety of people who know one or the other of my daughters who would say she is very girlie and someone who knows her from another area of her life who would say she's not girlie at all.

One of my daughters used the caption "Assuming I am like every other girl was your first mistake." on one of her grad photo boards displaying photos of herself encased in makeup, glitter, costumes and innumerable hairdos from her years in dance and performing in school musicals; coaching archery; covered in mud and toting heavy lumber helping build and landscape a community playground; and demonstrating footwork for throwing a shotput. Her sister's comment was, let them assume, that way they never see you coming. I can't say she's wrong in her idea to use others' misconceptions and preconceived notions to her advantage.

This is not an attack on your daughter at all, but I'd urge her to think about what "every other girl" is. Does she think every other girl is exactly the same? Of course not. There is nothing wrong with every other girl. Whether they are complete girly girls, tomboys, or anything in between. "Girl on girl action" (as they call it in Mean Girls) is something ingrained in us by society, and something we as women need to rise above. Women are the most critical of other women. They want to be seen by men as the "cool" girl, the one not like other girls. "Girly girl" as an insult is thrown around mostly by other women.

 

[ashley0139]

I get your rant. Internalized misogyny is so prevelent. The whole not a "girly-girl" thing persists into adulthood as the "cool girl" not like other girls trope.

I don't think girly girl is used as an insult but I think "not a girly girl" is seen as better. Those are two different things to me.

"I think feminism is dumb, I'm just one of the guys, see I'm cool-unlike the rest of my gender". Ugh, it's even worse being in tech. You can be alternative manic pixie dream girl girly with bright purple hair and piercings, but if you want to dress traditionally feminine and rock a full face of makeup then somehow the perception is you're "not really technical." Women perpetuate this crap too which is the worst.

Ha, we basically said exactly the same thing in different words.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

Most of the little girls I know wear shorts under their princess dresses. Solves the tree-climbing, jungle-gym-swinging issue!

Also, tree climbing is always best done in bare feet.

We usually did! But you know there's always that ONE time they don't and there they are upside down in a tree and I'm like looking out the window.

 

[usnuzuloose]

I never paid attention to those kinds of labels. My daughter loved to wear dresses, but as she got older she wanted to wear pants. She played with all the kids. I don't recall her liking to climb trees. She even became a bmx rider.
Personally I don't even know back then if mother's were using that label.

 

[eileenjez]

When my daughters were little they had trucks, cars, and Barbie dolls to play with. We gave them building sets, microscopes, telescopes for Christmas gifts. One grew up and I said she wore combat boots, she joined the Air Force. The other one did too but didn't stay in like her sister. She has rocks in her head. She is an Environmental Engineer. My Air Force daughter does the makeup and clothes the other one doesn't have time. She's too busy still playing in the mud. Now they have families of their own with daughters that know that whatever they want to do they can.

 

[Magpie]

I never paid attention to those kinds of labels. My daughter loved to wear dresses, but as she got older she wanted to wear pants. She played with all the kids. I don't recall her liking to climb trees. She even became a bmx rider.
Personally I don't even know back then if mother's were using that label.

Back when, and back where?

In New Jersey, in the mid 1970's, I certainly did hear that label. I was proud to not be a "girly girl".

Also, my mother has stated that she doesn't like it when people refer to women as "girls" because it takes her back to the 1950's and feels like a step backward in respecting women as competent adults. To quote her, "My mom always referred to herself and her friends as 'us girls' and I hated it!"

From the Etymology dictionary...

girly (adj.)
"girl-like," 1866, from girl + -y (2). Reduplicated form girly-girly (adj.) is recorded from 1883; as a noun from 1882.

 

[Felicis]

WEL. I loathe the term tomboy. That perpetuates the myth that some things are more for boys than girls just as much as girly girl. The sooner we stop categorising likes and activities by reproductive parts, the sooner people can be who they are without silly labels.

 

[cabanafrau]

This is not an attack on your daughter at all, but I'd urge her to think about what "every other girl" is. Does she think every other girl is exactly the same? Of course not. There is nothing wrong with every other girl. Whether they are complete girly girls, tomboys, or anything in between. "Girl on girl action" (as they call it in Mean Girls) is something ingrained in us by society, and something we as women need to rise above. Women are the most critical of other women. They want to be seen by men as the "cool" girl, the one not like other girls. "Girly girl" as an insult is thrown around mostly by other women.

Her point was not that other girls are in this box and she's not. It was not about demeaning girls, she is one. Her point was that there is no box, don't expect me to conform to a box, I decide who I am and what I can do.

Girl on girl action? Mean Girls? You're barking up the wrong tree.

I've heard girly girl used many times in discussions in no way insulting anyone. Most commonly I hear it used as shorthand in a discussion for someone's fashion choices, i.e. "Is she girly girl, more plain and simple, sophisticated, etc?" Been in those discussions many times with women looking for a dress or a look for an event or a photo or a trip for themselves, their daughter and even not too long ago a friend trying to help her cousin decide on a look for a photo for her business.

I can't help but notice you took my daughter's photo caption negatively, put a negative assumption on how women want to be seen by men and leap to the conclusion girly girl must be an insult. Makes me think my other daughter is onto something when she recommends leaving people to assume what they will.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

Her point was not that other girls are in this box and she's not. It was not about demeaning girls, she is one. Her point was that there is no box, don't expect me to conform to a box, I decide who I am and what I can do.

Girl on girl action? Mean Girls? You're barking up the wrong tree.

I've heard girly girl used many times in discussions in no way insulting anyone. Most commonly I hear it used as shorthand in a discussion for someone's fashion choices, i.e. "Is she girly girl, more plain and simple, sophisticated, etc?" Been in those discussions many times with women looking for a dress or a look for an event or a photo or a trip for themselves, their daughter and even not too long ago a friend trying to help her cousin decide on a look for a photo for her business.

I can't help but notice you took my daughter's photo caption negatively, put a negative assumption on how women want to be seen by men and leap to the conclusion girly girl must be an insult. Makes me think my other daughter is onto something when she recommends leaving people to assume what they will.

I'm not the PP that quoted you but from our posts seems like we have had similar experiences. I read sort of the same thing. "Assuming I'm like every other girl was your first mistake." reads I'm different I'm not like other women;there's me and there's them.

I don't even think it's about how women want to be seen by men. It's often how women want to be seen by other women and themselves.

That quote does not come across to me as all women are unique and different and there is no box and you can't categorize us by gender. It sounds like that is what she meant.

Assuming can be an issue no doubt, but words have both denotative and connotative meaning. Reading a connotation often understood within society is different than assuming.

 

[indimom]

Maybe people just need to stop trying to quantify other people with one word or title. I don't think any of the titles are necessarily offensive, but trying to limit people to one "type" certainly is. You can be a girly-girl, and a nerd, and an athlete, and an intellectual, and a comic book geek, and a home-body, and a... and a.... and a.....

In my opinion (oh, I'm a Christian-add something like that to the list above), God breaks the mold each and every time. And if your not religious, then Mother Nature breaks the mold every time.
I think that's pretty awesome, really.

 

[cabanafrau]

I'm not the PP that quoted you but from our posts seems like we have had similar experiences. I read sort of the same thing. "Assuming I'm like every other girl was your first mistake." reads I'm different I'm not like other women;there's me and there's them.

I don't even think it's about how women want to be seen by men. It's often how women want to be seen by other women and themselves.

That quote does not come across to me as all women are unique and different and there is no box and you can't categorize us by gender. It sounds like that is what she meant.

Assuming can be an issue no doubt, but words have both denotative and connotative meaning. Reading a connotation often understood within society is different than assuming.

I'm not very clear, but I assume "seems like we have had similar experiences" refers to the poster who quoted me and not you and I.

It being about how women want to be seen by men did not originate with me and was not my thought. I find it offensive personally and was not the one to raise the point.

Assuming I'm like every other girl was your first mistake can easily be read to mean not all girls are one thing, not the same. It only has to be construed as competitive with other females or there's me and there's them if you look to take it there. I find it preposterous that my daughter is being cautioned to not be a Mean Girl when that has no bearing to what she was doing or what she was saying. The interesting thing is none of her peers who saw the caption and pictures firsthand read with the connotation being placed on the words here, which was apparent from the comments, squeals and laughter. It's not as if we're talking about a board of pictures of herself alone. A big part of the fun was them laughing at themselves and each other in a lot of the shots, especially in the ones they considered way back when. So which "connotation often understood within society" would you have her begin to attempt to satisfy?

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

I'm not very clear, but I assume "seems like we have had similar experiences" refers to the poster who quoted me and not you and I.

It being about how women want to be seen by men did not originate with me and was not my thought. I find it offensive personally and was not the one to raise the point.

Assuming I'm like every other girl was your first mistake can easily be read to mean not all girls are one thing, not the same. It only has to be construed as competitive with other females or there's me and there's them if you look to take it there. I find it preposterous that my daughter is being cautioned to not be a Mean Girl when that has no bearing to what she was doing or what she was saying. The interesting thing is none of her peers who saw the caption and pictures firsthand read with the connotation being placed on the words here, which was apparent from the comments, squeals and laughter. It's not as if we're talking about a board of pictures of herself alone. A big part of the fun was them laughing at themselves and each other in a lot of the shots, especially in the ones they considered way back when. So which "connotation often understood within society" would you have her begin to attempt to satisfy?

I don't know your daughter and don't particularly mind what she had for a grad quote.

The connotation often understood within society is that if you say (and I'm giving a variation of the quote) "I'm not like every other girl" has the connotation of I'm different and every other girl is the same.

It would read the same for "I'm not like every other...boy, American, brunette, whatever descriptor"

Saying "no girls are alike, don't assume we are" means we're all different to me. Even "don't assume I'm like any other girl" implies a uniqueness that using every other doesn't.

I'm also not going to assign the same understanding of social constructs that I have as an adult who has seen internal and external misogyny and the nuance of such language (within the context of this thread and girls/women-but it can also apply to racism and other -isms) to a young woman just graduating HS.

As I said in my previous post language has layers of meaning, I have explained the connotation of the words used to me and my social understanding. I'm certainly not attacking your daughter but seeing language that I see used to chide and deride women in what she said.

 

[Magpie]

WEL. I loathe the term tomboy. That perpetuates the myth that some things are more for boys than girls just as much as girly girl. The sooner we stop categorising likes and activities by reproductive parts, the sooner people can be who they are without silly labels.

I agree! I think both "tomboy" and "girly girl" are very much just two sides of the same "boys are best" coin.

 

[ashley0139]

Her point was not that other girls are in this box and she's not. It was not about demeaning girls, she is one. Her point was that there is no box, don't expect me to conform to a box, I decide who I am and what I can do.

Girl on girl action? Mean Girls? You're barking up the wrong tree.

I've heard girly girl used many times in discussions in no way insulting anyone. Most commonly I hear it used as shorthand in a discussion for someone's fashion choices, i.e. "Is she girly girl, more plain and simple, sophisticated, etc?" Been in those discussions many times with women looking for a dress or a look for an event or a photo or a trip for themselves, their daughter and even not too long ago a friend trying to help her cousin decide on a look for a photo for her business.

I can't help but notice you took my daughter's photo caption negatively, put a negative assumption on how women want to be seen by men and leap to the conclusion girly girl must be an insult. Makes me think my other daughter is onto something when she recommends leaving people to assume what they will.

I don't see how her quote can possibly be taken another way. There's me and then there's every other girl. Clearly, that's not what she meant, nor would I expect an 18 year old girl to have the nuance about something like that. I'm glad her friends all enjoyed it and that they "squealed" about it.

Also, I clearly was not calling her a Mean Girl nor was I attacking her in any way. I was making a reference to the movie Mean Girls, which has an uplifting and inclusive message.

But you're obviously on the defensive about this so I will step away from this part of the conversation. I was just mentioning it as something to think about.