JonBenet Ramsey - Do you think her Mother murdered her?

[lillygator]

wow!!
beachbalnket thanks for posting.
jynon - good theory!

 

[T. Lynn]

I've seen mothers who are wound this tight. They flip out over the stupidest things. The stress of wanting her daughter to be perfect in the pagents and being a bed wetter would cause her to flip. Everything has to go according to plan and PERFECT to the T or they flip....anything other than perfection is not acceptable in their book.

Yes, it is definately possible for Patsy to have done it.

 

[Beth76]

What doesn't make sense is why would the "kidnappers" write a note and demand a ransom when they left the dead child in the house?

 

[poohandwendy]

What doesn't make sense is why would the "kidnappers" write a note and demand a ransom when they left the dead child in the house?

This is why I think the parents were involved. Basically, what you mention rules out a stranger because if they planned this ahead of time, they would have a pre-written note. They certainly wouldn't be going through Patsy's drawers looking for paper. There would be no 'rough draft' found on the premises. Also, kidnappersw need a live body. They way she was found suggests that some time was taken with her body (garrote) If the kidnapping part was not in the strangers plan, they would not have needed a note...they would have left as soon as she was dead, immediately. No need to hang aroung risking being seen/caught.

That leaves you with the theory that someone the Ramseys knew did it, right? But that doesn't make any sense either. If they wanted to kidnap her, she would not have been left in the house and they also would have made the note ahead of time. If they just wanted to rape/kill her, they would have left asap because if anyone would wake up...they would be easily recognized/identified. To take the time to write a long note...there is just no way anyone would take that risk in the house.

 

[Mike.Wazowski]

Is it not true that regressive behaviors to earlier developmental stages aka bedwetting - is a sign or symptom of molestation???

I still waiver on this when I hear different theories or pieces of evidence

 

[VSL]

Some of the main reasons I do not believe it was an intruder:

1) What intruder is going to think they can enter your home on Christmas night, without being caught? Too risky.

2) If an intruder comes with the purpose of molesting and/or killing the child...why would they take the chance of doing all of that in the home, where the parents are?
They wouldn't, they would remove the child from the home.

3) What intruder writes the randsom note on paper that was found in your nightstand, next to where you were sleeping?

And many other inconsistencies. There are just too many things about the Ramseys story that make zero sense.

ITA (highlighting mine)

I remember once reading a theory that John was molesting Jon Benet and Patty walked in unexpectedly and witnessed it. In a blind rage and perhaps jealousy, she attacked Jon Benet. John had to cover up for her because how could he admit the reason why Patsy attacked Jon Benet? Interesting theory anyway...

It is an interesting theory. Especially when coupled with the things that people have said about Patsy being a perfectionist.

What doesn't make sense is why would the "kidnappers" write a note and demand a ransom when they left the dead child in the house?

You know, I'd never even thought about that before! Good point

 

[poohandwendy]

Can anyone here come up with a plausible theory of how this would have went down if it were a stranger or someone the family knew, and what the motive could have been?

Every time I try to think of a scenario that does not involve the immediate family, the note and Jon Benet being found in the house make it seem impossible.

 

[Jynohn]

Is it not true that regressive behaviors to earlier developmental stages aka bedwetting - is a sign or symptom of molestation???

I have always heard this as well. Poor little girl. I truly hope that's not really what happened to her...

 

[JoyG]

Can anyone here come up with a plausible theory of how this would have went down if it were a stranger or someone the family knew, and what the motive could have been?

Every time I try to think of a scenario that does not involve the immediate family, the note and Jon Benet being found in the house make it seem impossible.

I don't think the Mother did it. I think it's sad that she lived for so long and ultimately died under a cloud of suspicion.

I don't know the facts of the case and haven't studied it, but from reading the things posted on this thread I think:

1. It could have been a family member of Patsy Ramsey who did it. A brother, sister, or in law on her side.

2. A family member on Patsy's side could use the same expressions as she uses such as "don't try to grow a brain". People on my side of the family are known to use the same figures of speech.

3. A family member would feel more comfortable hanging around the house on Christmas night. If John or Patsy woke up they'd be able to come up with an excuse for being there. My family is always letting themselves into my house.

4. A family member of Patsy's might be privy to knowledge of John's bonus and a family member of Patsy's might harbor some resentment or jealousy towards John, and a family member of Patsy's might have similiar handwriting.

5. I think the intruder had originally planned to kidnap Jon Benet and had the note generally "worked out" in their head before they got there...that's not the kind of detail you can think of off the top of your head.

6. I think something went wrong with the kidnaping and they family member left the body in an obscure part of the house (also a layout they'd be privy to) and got out of there.

All just speculation of course, but I don't think Patsy did it.

Joy

 

[tinatark]

* Amount of the bonus - was the company John worked for a publicly traded company? It would have been published in the annual report. If not, I'm sure there was gossip aplenty about his "$118k bonus" - I've heard those kinds of things in the corp. world. Yes, his pay may have been confidential - but there were all types of employees who had access to the amount - the person who crunched the numbers to figure out the amount, the person who sent the pay amount to payroll, someone else who paid the check... even as far as the bank where the funds were deposited. We get large year end bonuses - many times we take them without tax, as the taxes have already been structured so that none would be due.

* Knowing the house layout so well - many communities require your house plans be filed when a house is built. These are easily accessible public records. If not public record, it would still be fairly easy to get your hands on them... In a subdivision, several different plans are used - again, readily accessible for anyone who wanted to do a little searching to get them.

* Patsy's speaking style - she was obviously a very prominent citizen of Boulder - as the wife of a local executive and also known on the pageant circuit.

* The attorney thing - any wealthy-executive type will barely blow their nose without an attorney present. If I had to choose between having my corporate/tax attorney or a defense attorney assist me with an investigation when I knew I was immediately a prime suspect, I'd choose a defense attorney.

I did think the parents had something to do with it, at first, but as time went on, TWO grand juries nor any of the multiple prosecutors could prosecute them, I've changed my mind.

I agree the police bungled this from the very beginning...

 

[Mike.Wazowski]

I would LOVE to make up senerios in this womans defense...
but theis 'cloud of suspicion' was brought upon by herself and her desire to NOT cooperate -

it took her FOUR months before she would talk to the Boulder PD

If my baby was 'kidnapped' or killed I would give my right arm to find out what was going on!

It did take Patsy THREE ties to pass the poly
The leading investigator RETIRED from Bolder PD BECAUSE of this case and that he thought Patsy was quilty

 

[Sparx]

I was very young when it happened. so I don't remember too much of the television coverage. I really have no idea who did it. I do think that its horrible that the horrid police work lead this to be unsolved, and whoever did it, Family or not, went free.

 

[wdw4life]

I don't remember if there was evidence of molestation on THAT night, but I do remember reading there was some suspicion because she had been to her pediatrician several times due to "inflammation" there and an unusual amount of UTI's for a child her age.

I remember hearing that too and Patsy's answer was JB took bubble baths. Well after the first time it happened wouldn't you stop? Always seemed kind of flimsy to me.

I am also in the camp of if the parents didn't do it they were involved in the cover up.

 

[Teejay32]

Can anyone here come up with a plausible theory of how this would have went down if it were a stranger or someone the family knew, and what the motive could have been?

Every time I try to think of a scenario that does not involve the immediate family, the note and Jon Benet being found in the house make it seem impossible.

I don't know all the details, but the ransom note didn't do the family any favors if they were trying to cover up a murder. It's too bizarre. The first part of it is from a movie, but I don't know the name of it. So I'm inclined to believe from its tone and from the fact of the little girl dead, the motive was to kill the girl, which only required 1 person getting in, around, and out of the house unseen. Not impossible.

 

[wdw4us2]

I absolutely believe that the Ramsey's did not kill their daughter. I have read a few books about the case and believe the former FBI agent who said an intruder was responsible for her death.

As far as the Ramsey's not cooperating, I'm not so sure I wouldn't behave the same way when it was clear the Boulder Police immediately suspected the parents and no one else. I think the murder should have been immediately turned over to state authorities or an agency with more experience. Just because the Boulder Police allowed the crime scene to be compromised, that's no reason to assume the Ramsey's were guilty.

As for the posters who say the coverup contributed to Patsy's death, it's just as likely that the death of her child had the same affect.

 

[Cass]

I don't know if Patsy committed the murder but I sure believe she wrote the ransom note. I've seen the handwriting comparisions and I believe she penned it.

Also that creeepy, creepy, CREEPY pic that she had taken of her at JonBenet's grave. She hired a photographer to take it... disturbing and she looks guilty as hell.

 

[Snoopymom]

Is it not true that regressive behaviors to earlier developmental stages aka bedwetting - is a sign or symptom of molestation???

It's also a symptom of RAD, reactive attachment disorder

http://www.crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm

I wasn't sure until I read that they stayed in Atlanta after the funeral instead of going back to CO to help with the investigation.

Also, I can't imagine how a mother's grief wouldn't turn to rage channeled into finding the murderer, especially when you have the resources to do it.

 

[T. Lynn]

It's great to see everyones theories. I know if I was breaking into a house, I won't go into a bedroom to steal paper that I didn't know for sure was there. Even if I did, way to risky. Doesn't make sense and it leads to the parents.

Well, whomever did it, I sure hope they can't sleep at night. And if it was Patsy, I sure hope she's not in heaven with her little girl but somewhere else instead.

 

[goofy!]

Here is an article that ran a few years ago in the Longmont Daily Times-Call - the town to the north of Boulder, if anybody is interested in the local point of view. (I live in Boulder now and was living here during the JonBenet murder.)

If you read the story, you will find that Patsy is considered a 4.5/out of 5 (with 5 being completely innocent) by experts of committing the murder.

Most locals now believe that a "known" intruder murdered her.

Some pertinent info:
1) There was never any evidence that JonBenet wet the bed that night.
2) JonBenet was found in the wine cellar of a very old Boulder mansion. With all the entertaining done, people knew where the wine cellar was.
3) 6 handwriting experts - 4 hired by the Boulder PD and 2 by the Ramseys - all did not identify Patsy or John as the authors.
4) The only handwriting experts that said it was the Ramseys were the ones hired by the journalist who's girlfriend said it looked like his handwriting and that he disappeared the night of the murder and did not come home till 5:30.

Local lore (including an ex BPD cop that I know) believes the BPD knows who did it. But that the evidence was so mangled they can't make any arrests. Hopefully, new evidence will show up one day so that it can be resolved!

04/14/2003
If not Patsy Ramsey, who? The unusual suspects

By Travis Henry
The Daily Times-Call


A lawsuit that once seemed intended to force Patsy Ramsey to implicate herself in the murder of her 6-year-old daughter has instead directed suspicion away from her.

In a 93-page ruling dismissing a civil suit filed by freelance journalist Chris Wolf against the Ramseys, U.S. District Judge Julie Carnes of Atlanta said there is more evidence pointing to an intruder as the person who killed JonBenet on Dec. 25, 1996, than there is evidence implicating Patsy Ramsey.

Wolf and his lawyer, Darnay Hoffman, filed a defamation lawsuit in March 2001 after the Ramseys publicly named Wolf as a possible suspect in the case.

Perhaps the biggest downfall of the lawsuit was the claim that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter and was naming other suspects to shift attention away from her.

That statement meant that to win the lawsuit, Wolf would have to prove that Patsy Ramsey was involved in her daughter’s death.

Wolf and Hoffman based most of their theory on the case from a book written by former Boulder police Detective Steve Thomas, who suggested Patsy Ramsey killed JonBenet in a bed-wetting incident, even though Carnes said there was never any evidence JonBenet wet her bed on the night in question.

According to Wolf and Hoffman, the most damaging evidence against Patsy Ramsey was handwriting analyses they claim prove she wrote the ransom note found shortly before JonBenet’s body was found in the wine cellar in the family’s basement.

The ransom note

In her ruling, Carnes said the note — addressed to John Ramsey and demanding $118,000 in cash — is one of the longest ransom notes recorded in the history of kidnapping cases.

“This fact is important because the longer a document is, the harder it becomes to disguise one’s handwriting,” Carnes wrote.

The ransom note was signed “S.B.T.C.” after the salutation “Victory!”

The judge wrote that the ransom note was taken from paper at the Ramseys’ home and written with a pen that belonged to them.

She wrote that both the Ramseys and Wolf agreed the ransom note was not an “ideal specimen” for handwriting analysis because a broad fiber-tip pen was used.

“This type of pen distorts and masks fine detail to an extent not achievable by other types of pens, as for example a ball-point ben,” Carnes wrote.

However, Carnes wrote that the handwriting in the ransom note was consistent throughout the entire writing, contrary to someone trying to hide their handwriting style.

“One of the most common means to disguise one’s handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text,” Carnes wrote.

Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

“Rather, the experts’ consensus was that she ‘probably did not’ write the ransom note,” Carnes wrote.

On a scale of one to five, with five eliminating someone from suspicion as the author of the ransom note, the experts placed Patsy Ramsey at 4.5 to 4.0, Carnes wrote.

Wolf and Hoffman, however, hired their own handwriting experts, Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, who said they were “100 percent certain” Mrs. Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

“In contrast to the experts relied upon by defendants and by the Boulder Police Department, however, neither of these experts have ever seen or examined the original ransom note,” Carnes wrote. “In fact, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Wong do not know what ‘generation’ copy of the ransom note they examined.”

Carnes points out that other people under suspicion other than Patsy Ramsey were not eliminated as possible authors of the ransom note, including Wolf himself.

“For example, forensic document examiner Lloyd Cunningham cannot eliminate plaintiff as the author of the ransom note,” Carnes wrote. “Plaintiff’s ex-girlfriend has also testified that she was ‘struck by how the handwriting in the note resembled (Wolf’s) own handwriting,’ and believes that he is the note’s author.”

The other suspects

The Ramseys’ book “The Death Of Innocence” names five people who they believe should be further investigated, including Wolf.

According to Carnes, Wolf was identified as a possible suspect by Detective Lou Smit, who said there were too many “unanswered questions” about him.

In August 1997, Wolf’s then-girlfriend, Jacqueline Dilson, told Patsy Ramsey’s sister, Pam Paugh, that she believed Wolf was involved in JonBenet’s murder.

According to the Ramseys’ book, Dilson had reported to the police that Wolf had disappeared on Christmas Day and returned at 5:30 a.m. the next day. Dilson said he took a shower and went to sleep.

The next day, Dilson claims, Wolf watched the television report of JonBenet’s death and became angry, claiming that he believed JonBenet had been sexually abused by her father.

Dilson told Paugh and police that Wolf hated big business and once had a sweatshirt with the initials SBTC on it, which stood for the Santa Barbara Tennis Club. SBTC was the signature at the end of the ransom note.

Police never publicly named Wolf or other people named in the Ramseys’ book as suspects.

Carnes notes in her ruling that one man named in the Ramseys’ book, Michael Helgoth, committed suicide two months after the murder and one day after District Attorney Alex Hunter announced they were narrowing the search for JonBenet’s killer.

A stun gun was found near Mr. Helgoth’s body, as well as “HI-TEC” boots. Evidence in the case suggests that JonBenet’s killer used a stun gun on her. Unidentified shoeprints from HI-TEC boots also were found in the Ramseys’ basement.

Another possible suspect is Gary Olivia, a transient with a history of child molestation, who was seen in the Boulder area in December 1996. Carnes wrote that Olivia picked up his mail one block from the Ramsey home and was present at JonBenet’s memorial service.

The Ramseys also identified Bill McReynolds as someone who should be investigated. McReynolds, a former University of Colorado journalism professor, portrayed Santa Claus at the Ramseys’ home for the third consecutive year in 1996 — two nights before the 6-year-old was found slain.

In addition, McReynolds’ wife had written a play about a young girl held captive in a basement.

Carnes also noted that McReynolds’ daughter had been kidnapped and sexually assaulted 22 years to the day before JonBenet’s death. A card written to JonBenet from McReynolds was found in her trash can after the murder.

McReynolds died at the age of 72 last September. Police said they never considered him a serious suspect.

A new beginning

Last December, at the request of District Attorney Mary Keenan, Boulder police handed the primary responsibility of investigating the murder over to the district attorney’s office.

Smit, who had left the investigation after he said police were ignoring other leads, is back on the case.

Keenan’s announcement last week that she agrees with Carnes’ ruling is an about-face in the investigation, and it clearly has created some waves between Keenan and the Boulder police, who feel she was criticizing their focus on the Ramseys.

However, Chief Mark Beckner said in his own statement that he was not going to debate the weight of the evidence in the case.

“It is still our hope that this investigation will lead to a successful prosecution of JonBenet’s killer, whoever that may be,” Beckner said. “The Boulder Police Department will continue to do whatever we can to help make that happen.”

Keenan reportedly met with the Ramseys in February and said in her statement Monday that the investigation was “proceeding with the full cooperation of the Ramseys, Detective Lou Smit and the Boulder Police Department.”

 

[Tinks]

Wow, Goofy. Thanks for that article! That Wolf person sure sounds fishy according to that article. SBTC? How strange is that?!

I have no idea who may have done the murder. I can't even speculate. I lean toward believing that the parents had nothing to do with it, and I've never heard any theories about her brother, Burke!! Why do/did some people think he was involved??
I just feel bad it was never solved and probably never will be. Hopefully that little girl will rest in peace anyway.