JonBenet Ramsey - a question for those who follow this story

[Sandy Cross]

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me. Well, I do think you are wrong about the garrote because the autopsy results show the garrote was applied while she was still breathing. But let's say John and/or Patsy found her and they thought she was dead so they proceeded with a cover-up. This also completely ignores all the blood and DNA evidence.

You seem to have watched the CBS show. I remember a line in there where the Behavioral expert said the best predictor of behavior is past behavior. We know nothing of any sort of physical violent behavior patterns in any of the Ramsey family. Billions of kids play video games and a tiny fraction of them commit violence. I'm trying to understand why exactly do you think Burke is a more likely candidate for a sudden outburst of violence than either of the parents?

There was a past incident where Burke hit Jon Benet with a golf club and she had to have plastic surgery I'm not sure but that could have been an accident. I don't think that John and Patsy could have got that mad at Jon Benet in that short time after the Christmas Party. Patsy did spend a lot of one on one time with Jon Benet I haven't heard any mention of Burke participating in sports or of Patsy spending one on one time with Burke. Pageant preparation takes so much time and practice and shopping and maybe Burke felt neglected and thought Jon Benet was the favorite so he had built up anger for Jon Benet and his parents I'm just brainstorming and not sure of anything. There is a possibility that Jon Benet was brain dead from the brain injury but her heart could have still been slowly beating so slow that John and Patsy were unable to detect a pulse or any life signs.

 

[cabanafrau]

I'll keep believing that family did it you keep believing in the mythical intruder after all we are all entitled to our own opinion and I should know that you should know more then the people who made the documentary!! Were you there with the "kidnapper"

A, the people who made the documentary don't have special powers to know more than everyone else. They shouldn't be relied upon as making pronouncements anywhere near the level of criminal responsibility because their claims and opinions aren't balanced by rules of evidence, court rules and due process of the accused.

B, if you expect to come in here and give opinions with no factual support, simply based on your opinions, and expect people to discuss them rationally, it's pretty weak sauce to challenge anyone else's opinion with the nonsense challenge of, how could you know, were you there with the kidnapper?

 

[cabanafrau]

Maybe that was not your intention but it felt that way to me. I thought this would be a good place to discuss all the theories that are out there and hear some new ones.

How did you decide this was a good place to discuss these theories since you've not participated here prior to this?

 

[msjprincess]

There was a past incident where Burke hit Jon Benet with a golf club and she had to have plastic surgery I'm not sure but that could have been an accident. I don't think that John and Patsy could have got that mad at Jon Benet in that short time after the Christmas Party. Patsy did spend a lot of one on one time with Jon Benet I haven't heard any mention of Burke participating in sports or of Patsy spending one on one time with Burke. Pageant preparation takes so much time and practice and shopping and maybe Burke felt neglected and thought Jon Benet was the favorite so he had built up anger for Jon Benet and his parents I'm just brainstorming and not sure of anything. There is a possibility that Jon Benet was brain dead from the brain injury but her heart could have still been slowly beating so slow that John and Patsy were unable to detect a pulse or any life signs.

Which is just one of many reasont that it doesn't make sense that they would cover for him killing their favorite child.

 

[sunshinehighway]

There was a past incident where Burke hit Jon Benet with a golf club and she had to have plastic surgery I'm not sure but that could have been an accident. I don't think that John and Patsy could have got that mad at Jon Benet in that short time after the Christmas Party. Patsy did spend a lot of one on one time with Jon Benet I haven't heard any mention of Burke participating in sports or of Patsy spending one on one time with Burke. Pageant preparation takes so much time and practice and shopping and maybe Burke felt neglected and thought Jon Benet was the favorite so he had built up anger for Jon Benet and his parents I'm just brainstorming and not sure of anything.

Why wouldn't you try to find more information on the golf club incident if you really don't know anything about it or if it was intentional or accidental? Why would you use something you don't really know anything about to make assumptions?

 

[cabanafrau]

The golf club incident was an accident.

Don't muddy things up with facts.

 

[RitaE]

There was a past incident where Burke hit Jon Benet with a golf club and she had to have plastic surgery I'm not sure but that could have been an accident. I don't think that John and Patsy could have got that mad at Jon Benet in that short time after the Christmas Party. Patsy did spend a lot of one on one time with Jon Benet I haven't heard any mention of Burke participating in sports or of Patsy spending one on one time with Burke. Pageant preparation takes so much time and practice and shopping and maybe Burke felt neglected and thought Jon Benet was the favorite so he had built up anger for Jon Benet and his parents I'm just brainstorming and not sure of anything.

Okay so what you are describing here is a very poor ability of impulse control. So let's take that as well as the video tapes of the squirming child who runs his mouth blabbering away talking to the Social Services worker.

You are John and Patsy Ramsey. You have just spent an entire night staging a murder to protect this kid who can't sit still, runs his mouth, and has such poor impulse control he just killed his sister in a fit of rage. This has been a pretty elaborate task, composing that ransom note alone took a couple of hours. Now you have the police and a group of friends at your house waiting for a phone call you know is never going to happen. One of them says to you - "Hey, let me take Burke over to my house to stay with my kids. My Aunt will watch him."

Is your immediate reaction "Sure, I know I can trust Burke won't say anything he shouldn't over there." Or do you think "No, I need to keep Burke here so I can make sure he doesn't talk to people and say what he knows."

Does that make sense to you?

 

[Sandy Cross]

Why wouldn't you try to find more information on the golf club incident if you really don't know anything about it or if it was intentional or accidental? Why would you use something you don't really know anything about to make assumptions?

I wasn't there so I can't be sure and even if Patsy and John told everyone it was an accident maybe they were protecting him to friends or ashamed that he purposely hurt Jon Benet no way to be sure.

 

[cabanafrau]

I wasn't there so I can't be sure and even if Patsy and John told everyone it was an accident maybe they were protecting him to friends or ashamed that he purposely hurt Jon Benet no way to be sure.

If it was intentional, wasn't it a big risk that whole time since it happened that Jon Benet would spill the beans? Wouldn't they have hesitated to get her medical attention for that?

ETA, before you answer you might want to consider that all of it impacts directly the motivations and psychological behaviors involved in your murder coverup theory.

 

[Sandy Cross]

Okay so what you are describing here is a very poor ability of impulse control. So let's take that as well as the video tapes of the squirming child who runs his mouth blabbering away talking to the Social Services worker.

You are John and Patsy Ramsey. You have just spent an entire night staging a murder to protect this kid who can't sit still, runs his mouth, and has such poor impulse control he just killed his sister in a fit of rage. This has been a pretty elaborate task, composing that ransom note alone took a couple of hours. Now you have the police and a group of friends at your house waiting for a phone call you know is never going to happen. One of them says to you - "Hey, let me take Burke over to my house to stay with my kids. My Aunt will watch him."

Is your immediate reaction "Sure, I know I can trust Burke won't say anything he shouldn't over there." Or do you think "No, I need to keep Burke here so I can make sure he doesn't talk to people and say what he knows."

Does that make sense to you?

That does make sense and I can see that could be a problem but John and Patsy had all night to coach him on what to do and say and maybe told Burke he would be taken away from them and sent to jail if he told anyone. If during that morning someone offered to take him out of the house and care for him and the Ramsey's said no they wanted him there that would look suspicious as if they were hiding something just my opinion no facts.

 

[cabanafrau]

Why wouldn't you try to find more information on the golf club incident if you really don't know anything about it or if it was intentional or accidental? Why would you use something you don't really know anything about to make assumptions?

Raises hand to answer. Because by freeing yourself to use assumptions you can arrive at a predetermined result?

 

[sunshinehighway]

I wasn't there so I can't be sure and even if Patsy and John told everyone it was an accident maybe they were protecting him to friends or ashamed that he purposely hurt Jon Benet no way to be sure.

Why even mention it at all. The problem is everything you say makes assumptions that are negative against the Ramsey's, even when there's no evidence to support it.
Even when there's contradictory evidence, you take the negative against the Ramsey's side. You can't do that and then use the "I want there so I can't say" excuse when something doesn't go your way.
If you weren't there so you can't say then you shouldn't be throwing out accusations that a young boy was so violent and out of control that he hit his sister intentionally with a golf club.
We have to be better than that, not just with this but in general. People have to stop throwing out rumors and speculation and treating it as fact because it fits what they want to believe.

 

[Sandy Cross]

If it was intentional, wasn't it a big risk that whole time since it happened that Jon Benet would spill the beans? Wouldn't they have hesitated to get her medical attention for that?

ETA, before you answer you might want to consider that all of it impacts directly the motivations and psychological behaviors involved in your murder coverup theory.

It is possible that Jon Benet didn't even know he hit her on purpose. Burke could have said I am so sorry I didn't see you that was an accident and that's what Jon Benet would say. Kids can be very smart when they don't want to get in trouble. Just my opinion.

 

[nugov2]

You see that's your opinion and I'm not saying either one of us is right or wrong. I know back in 1996 DNA testing was not as advanced as it is today but there were crime shows back then that did talk of DNA testing and if and I'm saying if there was a cover up that would be something to be considered. I do respect everyone's opinion and my opinion is not set in stone I am willing to change my mind and consider every possibility. I would love to hear new theories.

I'm just curious how you think JR was able to go out and collect DNA of just one person that could be transferred to JBR and if this solution to murder/accidental death is so easy to accomplish why aren't more people doing this to get away with a crime?

I also think the Burkes behavior (smiling etc) makes it even less likely that he did it. There is no evidence he was a highly aggressive child. Siblings fight and get physical but that doesn't point to a likelihood of an accidental death being likely where the child is then capable of acting as though it never happened. I think this is a kid who wasn't involved and was so detached from what happened. He only knew the details adults felt he should know and the knowledge she was no longer here (which isn't always a concept small children really grasp and why they don't grieve like an adult and he was smiling in interviews).
Unless he is a sociopath, no way he doesn't crack from the weight of that knowledge he accidentally killed his sister. It would be almost impossible to get through interviews without saying anything incriminating...almost as impossible as it is to swab a public place and only pull one dna sample without any professional equipment. Just too many virtually impossible circumstances had to play ouy perfectly for that scenario to fit.

It is much more likely an intruder came in, killed her was going to take the body, but realized they couldn't get her out, panicked and wrote the note in the basement to throw off authorities. They could have easily crept up grabbed the paper, snuck back down to write it in the far corner of the basement and placed it back upstairs when they were done. Honestly, as I stated in a pp a spider web is constructed in 1hour. That could be the reason for the web being present. There is evidence the grate was open, evidence of marking on the wall and a footprint on the suit case. It is possible the intruder was smart enough to smooth the area in the grate so it looks undisturbed, but mistakenly leave a mark, footprint and foliage trapped in the grate as evidence an intruder was there. Again, not sure thats what happened but much more plausible then the family cover up IMO.

 

[RitaE]

I wasn't there so I can't be sure and even if Patsy and John told everyone it was an accident maybe they were protecting him to friends or ashamed that he purposely hurt Jon Benet no way to be sure.

Okay, so let's add the golf club incident to the pile of iffy evidence like the blood and DNA and move on. There were reporters camped outside that grade school for months if not years talking to kids and other parents. Inside Edition alone seemed to put a full-time staff in Boulder. Where are the interviews of Soccer Moms standing outside the school doors saying "That kid was trouble. Last year he smacked my kid right out of her swing and ..... " The type of raging temper you are talking about is nearly always "The Kid" every Mother scans the class list for at the start of every school year hoping he isn't in the same class. Any of that???? Because I've never seen any of that.

And remember, at this point we are still saying Burke is more likely than either John, Patsy, or an outside intruder. Every bit of "yeah but" we add on here makes that less likely.

Yeah but, he probably didn't do the garrote because that's pretty sophisticated for his age ability
Yeah but, there's that pesky blood and DNA evidence
Yeah but, he was 9 years old and not exactly a trustworthy secret keeper
Yeah but, there's really little else we know about his personality profile that makes us think he'd do this.......

 

[sunshinehighway]

Raises hand to answer. Because by freeing yourself to use assumptions you can arrive at a predetermined result?

At this point I'm just going to go back to it being aliens. It makes about as much sense as things being said here.

 

[cabanafrau]

It is possible that Jon Benet didn't even know he hit her on purpose. Burke could have said I am so sorry I didn't see you that was an accident and that's what Jon Benet would say. Kids can be very smart when they don't want to get in trouble. Just my opinion.

Kids can be very smart when they don't want to get in trouble.

Kids also can be very smart about when their sibling is lying to them, particularly if said sibling presumably violently attacked them with a golf club.

You do know you lose ground every time you keep moving the line? Not an effective means of convincing anybody anything you say is credible in the least.

 

[Sandy Cross]

Why even mention it at all. The problem is everything you say makes assumptions that are negative against the Ramsey's, even when there's no evidence to support it.
Even when there's contradictory evidence, you take the negative against the Ramsey's side. You can't do that and then use the "I want there so I can't say" excuse when something doesn't go your way.
If you weren't there so you can't say then you shouldn't be throwing out accusations that a young boy was so violent and out of control that he hit his sister intentionally with a golf club.
We have to be better than that, not just with this but in general. People have to stop throwing out rumors and speculation and treating it as fact because it fits what they want to believe.

I have not said that anything I'm saying is fact I have said over and over these are my opinions. How do you expect to have a discussion if you don't allow people to say it could have happened this way or this is a possibility or what if this happened. If your expecting everything on this thread to be only fact based then there would be no discussion because no one knows the facts everything is speculation. I am not accusing anyone that is why I keep saying in my opinion.

 

[cabanafrau]

At this point I'm just going to go back to it being aliens. It makes about as much sense as things being said here.

My speculation is it is highly likely it is someone who knew the family in some way, or came to know the family via an obsession or fixation on Jon Benet. Especially after hearing the thoughts of my friend about the psychological components I feel this was a sexually compulsive killing.

 

[cabanafrau]

I have not said that anything I'm saying is fact I have said over and over these are my opinions. How do you expect to have a discussion if you don't allow people to say it could have happened this way or this is a possibility or what if this happened. If your expecting everything on this thread to be only fact based then there would be no discussion because no one knows the facts everything is speculation. I am not accusing anyone that is why I keep saying in my opinion.

When you say, my opinion is Burke did it, my opinion is the parents made the garrote and strangled her to cover up for Burke -- those are accusations.