Joggers, Runners & Bikers....please explain?

[Poohforyou]

We have miles and miles and miles of BIKE PATHS around our area yet the bikers STILL ride on the road. . I saw a biker the other day, riding right ON the white line between the curb and the lane of traffic-on a road with a posted 55 mph speed limit. A semi drove by him and he flipped off the semi (assuming for getting to close to the bike). Nevermind that there is a BIKE PATH about 10 feet to his right The roads here that don't have bike paths have extra wide shoulders with bike lanes painted in them and the bikers STILL ride in the car lanes . I don't feel one bit sorry for them when a truck blows them off their bike.

We have lots of bike paths here as well and since they are near tree lines are littered with twigs, leaves, and pods. All these are very dangerous for someone on a road bike. The tires on them are very narrow and cannot handle the impact of something like that the way a hybrid tire can. A road bike rider could wipe out just by hitting something like that at a high speed.

As I said in an earlier post the shoulders of roads are usually littered with debris (rock, glass, twigs etc) so that requires someone on a road bike to ride close to the white line. For me personally I avoid heavily traveled roads as much as possible but sometimes I have no choice. Trust me, I don't want a car near me and pay careful attention to what is going on around me.

 

[cepmom]

I jog and will jog on the street if the sidewalks are bumpy or uneven. The sidewalks here have a lot of ups and downs at the cross streets and/or driveways. It makes it very uncomfortable to jog on. However, if the street is extremely busy with traffic, I will use the sidewalk regardless of it's ups and downs/bumps from overgrown trees etc

 

[golfgal]

We have lots of bike paths here as well and since they are near tree lines are littered with twigs, leaves, and pods. All these are very dangerous for someone on a road bike. The tires on them are very narrow and cannot handle the impact of something like that the way a hybrid tire can. A road bike rider could wipe out just by hitting something like that at a high speed.

As I said in an earlier post the shoulders of roads are usually littered with debris (rock, glass, twigs etc) so that requires someone on a road bike to ride close to the white line. For me personally I avoid heavily traveled roads as much as possible but sometimes I have no choice. Trust me, I don't want a car near me and pay careful attention to what is going on around me.

Well, that is NOT the case here. They sweep the streets and BIKE PATHS weekly or as needed. The left side of the shoulder is no or less "safe" then the right side and neither are as safe as the BIKE PATH.

 

[John VN]

DW and I will walk in the street even if a sidewalk is available because it IS more comfortable. If a car approaches, we will get on the sidewalk until it passes. Walking a sidewalk while shopping is quite different than training for a Walking Marathon.

Until one experiences the physical difference between the street and a sidewalk, I believe the non walker/jogger/runner cannot comprehend the reasoning behind the use of the street over the sidewalk. I understand it now!

As far as bicycling goes, for slow bicycle riding a sidewalk might be OK but when the speed picks up the sidewalk becomes less safe. If laws require the sidewalk be used, then the rider must obey the law.

Until one rides a bike at a speed where the sidewalk usage becomes hazardous, one has no knowledge of how things feel. Until one rides a bike over the debris in the road that results in a flat, the reasoning behind riding the white line is lost in the cosmic drift.

BTW... here in Fl. it is required by law that vehicles MUST be at least 3' away from a bicycle when passing.

 

[golfgal]

DW and I will walk in the street even if a sidewalk is available because it IS more comfortable. If a car approaches, we will get on the sidewalk until it passes. Walking a sidewalk while shopping is quite different than training for a Walking Marathon.

Until one experiences the physical difference between the street and a sidewalk, I believe the non walker/jogger/runner cannot comprehend the reasoning behind the use of the street over the sidewalk. I understand it now!

As far as bicycling goes, for slow bicycle riding a sidewalk might be OK but when the speed picks up the sidewalk becomes less safe. If laws require the sidewalk be used, then the rider must obey the law.

Until one rides a bike at a speed where the sidewalk usage becomes hazardous, one has no knowledge of how things feel. Until one rides a bike over the debris in the road that results in a flat, the reasoning behind riding the white line is lost in the cosmic drift.

BTW... here in Fl. it is required by law that vehicles MUST be at least 3' away from a bicycle when passing.

How does THAT work? So, if a bike rider is riding on the road, a car must move over into oncoming traffic to pass the biker or slow down and follow the bike until it is safe to pass??? There are also laws on the books about impeding traffic, also illegal. Does the biker have to move over 3' if there is oncoming traffic??

 

[Poohforyou]

Well, that is NOT the case here. They sweep the streets and BIKE PATHS weekly or as needed. The left side of the shoulder is no or less "safe" then the right side and neither are as safe as the BIKE PATH.

Have you ridden a rode bike on the shoulder of a well traveled road? I have and it's full of debris. When there's an accident guess where bits of glass wind up.

 

[golfgal]

Have you ridden a rode bike on the shoulder of a well traveled road? I have and it's full of debris. When there's an accident guess where bits of glass wind up.

Which is why you should use the BIKE PATH....again, our town sweeps the streets on a regular basis. Again, you are on a BIKE, not driving a car, you LEGALLY do not belong in the lane of traffic, period. You belong on the shoulder or the provided BIKE PATH. They are called bike paths for a reason, they are for riding your bikes on...

 

[Poohforyou]

Which is why you should use the BIKE PATH....again, our town sweeps the streets on a regular basis. Again, you are on a BIKE, not driving a car, you LEGALLY do not belong in the lane of traffic, period. You belong on the shoulder or the provided BIKE PATH. They are called bike paths for a reason, they are for riding your bikes on...

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can't imagine what my property taxes would be to have a crew sweep paths and streets weekly. I'm legally entitled to be on the road on a bike as it is a moving vehicle. I do my part to respect the laws and stay safe. All I ask is that motorists do the same. 99% of my encounters with cars have been fine. Drivers around here for the most part go out of there way to ensure they give me room.

 

[declansdad]

Well, that is NOT the case here. They sweep the streets and BIKE PATHS weekly or as needed. The left side of the shoulder is no or less "safe" then the right side and neither are as safe as the BIKE PATH.

Man your town must have tons of sweepers!

 

[lacrosse_lady72]

I think sidewalks or for walkers and people who want to run on them. I live in Oregon where trees, especially BIG ones are everywhere and tear up sidewalks. When I run, the last thing I want to be worrying about is where I'm going to step. That's what trail runs are for anyway, lol. But there are also a lot of places to run here anyway, most of the time I go to the Nike World Headquarters or my gym (which has an indoor track).

If I'm not jogging those places, I'm on the road. Usually at 5AM or 12AM... because I'm a full time student who works full time, it's the only time I have to run.

 

[FireDancer]

Bike paths around here are almost exclusively all-purpose paths which means you have kids, walkers, joggers, and just about everything else on them. When I am out on my road bike it is not safe to travel at the speeds I go (sometimes 20-25mph) if any of those things are present.

Also, while I drive as close to the curb as safe in many cases you have to be out 3 or 4 feet into the lane. There is debris as mentioned earlier and in some cities the way the sewer grates are laid means you have to ride a foot or so in from them as opposed to in from the curve. In utopia they may sweep the streets daily along with the paths but in the real world that isn't the case. You can ride a bike with a 25mm tire over all that junk, you'll get a flat every mile.

For the question about passing, yes, it is up to the cars to travel behind the cyclists at a safe distance until it is safe to pass them by leaving at least 3' in most states. Any good cyclist will move over as far as they can because we not only try to do our part in sharing the road but the more room the car has the safer they can pass.

Are there cyclists who don't obey the laws or use common sense? Absolutely. Are there people in cars just as guilty of not obeying the laws on the street? Just as absolutely.

The bottom line is that bikes are allowed on any street regardless of the posted limit unless there is a sign forbidding them. Until you go out on a 100 mile training ride or do a 20 mile long run you really have no idea what it is like trying to navigate the roads safely. It isn't the same as jumping on the little cruiser bike with a basket and soft peddle around the park doing 4 mph.

 

[golfgal]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can't imagine what my property taxes would be to have a crew sweep paths and streets weekly. I'm legally entitled to be on the road on a bike as it is a moving vehicle. I do my part to respect the laws and stay safe. All I ask is that motorists do the same. 99% of my encounters with cars have been fine. Drivers around here for the most part go out of there way to ensure they give me room.

Well, our property taxes are a 1/3rd of what most people pay in NJ (I would HATE your property taxes too). I also think that if you read my posts I don't have any issues with bike riders that DO obey the laws but as I have stated, many don't and then THEY get mad at the cars when the bike riders are in the wrong.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

We see the same thing. They ride like the rules don't apply to them and get mad when they get a ticket or a car gets too close to them--even though THEY are in the wrong .



Yep, and if you read the actual LAW, the bicyclists are in violation of that law, not the cars:

Subd. 4. Riding on roadway or shoulder. (a) Every
person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as close as
practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except
under any of the following situations:

(1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding
in the same direction;

(2) when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or
into a private road or driveway;

(3) when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions,
including fixed or moving objects, vehicles, pedestrians,
animals, surface hazards, or narrow width lanes, that make it
unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge.

Bolded for emphasis...which is what some of the bikers on this thread are talking about.

They ride as close as possible to the LEFT side of the shoulder-illegal. If they are deliberately doing that, then yes, however if they are meeting any of the above exceptions, then it is legal.They zoom through stop signs, red lights, etc.-illegal.
Agreed, and I have never assumed otherwise and have even posted that upthread. You mentioned none of that in your original post in this thread.

Also:

(d) No person shall operate upon a highway any bicycle
which is of such a size as to prevent the operator from stopping
the bicycle, supporting it with at least one foot on the highway
surface and restarting in a safe manner. This has nothing to do with what you state. Unless the person was riding a circus bike or one of those really tall unicycles. Was the person you witnessed too short for their bike?

Which is where we see these bike riders-on the highways around here-illegalWhat you just posted has nothing to do with banning bikes on the road. It has to do with the size in relationship to the person riding it. It doesn't ban bikes on the highway nor does it specify which foot must be flat on the highway.

As well as:

Cities also have ordinances that govern the use of bicycles in their city limits. Check out the city ordinances in the city you will be traveling.You did not post your city.

In our city-if there is a BIKE PATH available, bikes are to use the BIKE PATH, not the road.Did you post the law that states as such? Because as it is, I have no way of knowing which city you live in to look up such law. For state law, there is no written law that states that the bike path must be used if available.

Not trying to be argumentative.

It just seems you are citing portions of the law that "prove" your point while ignoring the portions of the law that state differently.

If you could provide a local statute that backs up your claims, I would appreciate it. I am not about to spend hours looking up each township and their corresponding bicycle laws.

 

[stevenpensacola]

Again, you are on a BIKE, not driving a car, you LEGALLY do not belong in the lane of traffic, period. You belong on the shoulder or the provided BIKE PATH. They are called bike paths for a reason, they are for riding your bikes on...

There's this little thing called THE LAW which does not agree with this ^^^

In Florida the bicycle is legally defined as a vehicle. Bicyclists have the same rights to the roadways, and must obey the same traffic laws as the operators of other vehicles​

Unless you've spent time in the saddle riding a real road bike, you're not qualified to pass judgement on cyclists. Are there cyclists who are jerks?...sure there are. But we're all not that way. Trust me...there is no one who is more aware of their surroundings than an experienced road rider. I try my best to not hinder traffic...but there ARE times you must for your own safety.

Same as auto drivers...I've been hit by a milkshake thrown from a car...and i WAS riding in the widened shoulder bike lane...or the rednecks in trucks who pass you with inches to spare even though there was no traffic coming the other way.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Well, our property taxes are a 1/3rd of what most people pay in NJ (I would HATE your property taxes too). I also think that if you read my posts I don't have any issues with bike riders that DO obey the laws but as I have stated, many don't and then THEY get mad at the cars when the bike riders are in the wrong.

I and others may have interpreted your statements incorrectly.

It seemed that when a bike path is available, you don't want the person on the highway. Hence, the postings of laws for your state (but not your town since you do not have it listed).

I also think that unless you are down in the trenches, so to speak, that it is difficult for you at 55mph to determine the conditions of what you are observing as appropriate for the cyclist's needs.

Many cyclists participate in events that are conducted on actual roads. So a bike path, in many ways--would not provide the type of training necessary for them to compete safely.

I can run on a treadmill all day long in an air conditioned room (for example), but it will in no way mirror actual highway conditions for where an event would take place. (neither will running laps on a track, to keep the comparison apples to apples.)

 

[golfgal]

Bolded for emphasis...which is what some of the bikers on this thread are talking about.





Not trying to be argumentative.

It just seems you are citing portions of the law that "prove" your point while ignoring the portions of the law that state differently.

If you could provide a local statute that backs up your claims, I would appreciate it. I am not about to spend hours looking up each township and their corresponding bicycle laws.

I am not ignoring those points at all and YES, they are deliberately driving as close to the car lane-or in the car lane as possible. If they are in the lane where they are supposed to an temporarily move over to avoid something, fine, but that is not what I am talking about. If you watch them from miles out, they are in the car lane or on the white line and as you approach, they don't move over and then give you dirty looks if YOU don't move-nevermind there is no place for the CAR to move.

No, I am not a racer but I do ride a bike and I do obey the laws--and ride on the BIKE PATH.

 

[golfgal]

Here is the whole statute since I guess I am just quoting my own points--

169.222 OPERATION OF BICYCLE.

Subdivision 1.Traffic laws apply. Every person operating a bicycle shall have all of the rights and duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle by this chapter, except in respect to those provisions in this chapter relating expressly to bicycles and in respect to those provisions of this chapter which by their nature cannot reasonably be applied to bicycles.
Subd. 2.Manner and number riding. No bicycle shall be used to carry more persons at one time than the number for which it is designed and equipped, except (1) on a baby seat attached to the bicycle, provided that the baby seat is equipped with a harness to hold the child securely in the seat and that protection is provided against the child's feet hitting the spokes of the wheel or (2) in a seat attached to the bicycle operator.
Subd. 3.Clinging to vehicle. Persons riding upon any bicycle, coaster, roller skates, toboggan, sled, skateboard, or toy vehicle shall not attach the same or themselves to any street car or vehicle upon a roadway.
Subd. 4.Riding on roadway or shoulder. (a) Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
(1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;

(2) when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway;

(3) when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, vehicles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or narrow width lanes, that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge.

(b) If a bicycle is traveling on a shoulder of a roadway, the bicycle shall travel in the same direction as adjacent vehicular traffic.

(c) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway or shoulder shall not ride more than two abreast and shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane.

(d) A person operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk, or across a roadway or shoulder on a crosswalk, shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian and shall give an audible signal when necessary before overtaking and passing any pedestrian. No person shall ride a bicycle upon a sidewalk within a business district unless permitted by local authorities. Local authorities may prohibit the operation of bicycles on any sidewalk or crosswalk under their jurisdiction.

(e) An individual operating a bicycle or other vehicle on a bikeway shall leave a safe distance when overtaking a bicycle or individual proceeding in the same direction on the bikeway, and shall maintain clearance until safely past the overtaken bicycle or individual.

(f) A person lawfully operating a bicycle on a sidewalk, or across a roadway or shoulder on a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances.

Subd. 5.Carrying articles. No person operating a bicycle shall carry any package, bundle, or article which prevents the driver from keeping at least one hand upon the handle bars or from properly operating the brakes of the bicycle.
Subd. 6.Bicycle equipment. (a) No person shall operate a bicycle at nighttime unless the bicycle or its operator is equipped with a lamp which shall emit a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet to the front and with a red reflector of a type approved by the Department of Public Safety which is visible from all distances from 100 feet to 600 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle. No person may operate a bicycle at any time when there is not sufficient light to render persons and vehicles on the highway clearly discernible at a distance of 500 feet ahead unless the bicycle or its operator is equipped with reflective surfaces that shall be visible during the hours of darkness from 600 feet when viewed in front of lawful lower beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle. The reflective surfaces shall include reflective materials on each side of each pedal to indicate their presence from the front or the rear and with a minimum of 20 square inches of reflective material on each side of the bicycle or its operator. Any bicycle equipped with side reflectors as required by regulations for new bicycles prescribed by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission shall be considered to meet the requirements for side reflectorization contained in this subdivision. A bicycle may be equipped with a rear lamp that emits a red flashing signal.
(b) No person shall operate a bicycle unless it is equipped with a brake which will enable the operator to make the braked wheels skid on dry, level, clean pavement.

(c) No person shall operate upon a highway any bicycle equipped with handlebars so raised that the operator must elevate the hands above the level of the shoulders in order to grasp the normal steering grip area.

(d) No person shall operate upon a highway any bicycle which is of such a size as to prevent the operator from stopping the bicycle, supporting it with at least one foot on the highway surface and restarting in a safe manner.

Subd. 7.Sale with reflectors and other equipment. No person shall sell or offer for sale any new bicycle unless it is equipped with reflectors and other equipment as required by subdivision 6, clauses (a) and (b) and by the regulations for new bicycles prescribed by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission.
Subd. 8.Turning, lane change. An arm signal to turn right or left shall be given continuously during the last 100 feet traveled by the bicycle before turning, unless the arm is needed to control the bicycle, and shall be given while the bicycle is stopped waiting to turn.
Subd. 9.Bicycle parking. (a) A person may park a bicycle on a sidewalk unless prohibited or restricted by local authorities. A bicycle parked on a sidewalk shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of pedestrian or other traffic.
(b) A bicycle may be parked on a roadway at any location where parking is allowed if it is parked in such a manner that it does not obstruct the movement of a legally parked motor vehicle.

Subd. 10.Bicycle events. (a) Bicycle events, parades, contests, or racing on a highway shall not be unlawful when approved by state or local authorities having jurisdiction over that highway. Approval shall be granted only under conditions which assure reasonable safety for all participants, spectators and other highway users, and which prevent unreasonable interference with traffic flow which would seriously inconvenience other highway users.
(b) By agreement with the approving authority, participants in an approved bicycle highway event may be exempted from compliance with any traffic laws otherwise applicable thereto, provided that traffic control is adequate to assure the safety of all highway users.

Subd. 11.Peace officer operating bicycle. The provisions of this section governing operation of bicycles do not apply to bicycles operated by peace officers while performing their duties.
History: 1978 c 739 s 12; 1986 c 444; 1987 c 255 s 14; 1993 c 326 art 4 s 2; art 7 s 2; 1995 c 72 s 2

 

[declansdad]

Here is the whole statute since I guess I am just quoting my own points--

Nothing in that post said a cyclist needs to be on a bikepath when available.

People might take you more seriously if you didn't use phrases such as: If you watch them from miles out.

 

[agnes!]

Ok thanks for the explanation of the bikers. I just never realized that they were to use the road instead of the sidewalks, but it makes sense. But that still doesn't explain the walkers/runners/joggers who use the road instead of the sidewalk (when there is a sidewalk to use) that's my main question. I understand if there is no sidewalk that they would use the edge of the road and I have no problem with that, I'm just really curious why they don't use the sidewalk when it's available?

I mean the other day I was driving down the road (with sidewalks) and there were 2 people walking together side by side in the road (not on the sidewalk) and when the car in front of me past them, he beeped his horn and I'm assuming yelled something out of his window. Well, the two people both flipped him off and yelled something back at him. I'm just assuming that the car beeped at them because they were in the road, side by side even and not on the sidewalk.

Yesterday my DD & I were out, she was driving and we came upon a woman walking straight through a busy traffic circle near the 1st President's home...and it was twilight. If the woman hadn't had semi-light colored pants on, DD probably would have hit her. I said "watch it", DD also saw her, slammed on the brakes and the woman kept on walking in the middle of the four-lane street. As we were sitting there in shock watching her still walking towards us, I rolled down my window and said "There's a sidewalk right over there Ma'am, you're lucky we didn't hit you".

this comment is not directed to you but just that particular statement...

if they are vehicles, then how come they dont have to follow the rules of the road?

I have seen them blow through stop signs, seen them blow right through red light interesections making cars that have the green light slam on their brakes, go left of center to get around traffic and other thing that are against the law for other vehicles

Around here, sometimes I feel like bicyclists are trying to play bumper-cars when I drive. Certain areas are quite scary...like Old Town on the weekend.

We have miles and miles and miles of BIKE PATHS around our area yet the bikers STILL ride on the road. . I saw a biker the other day, riding right ON the white line between the curb and the lane of traffic-on a road with a posted 55 mph speed limit. A semi drove by him and he flipped off the semi (assuming for getting to close to the bike). Nevermind that there is a BIKE PATH about 10 feet to his right The roads here that don't have bike paths have extra wide shoulders with bike lanes painted in them and the bikers STILL ride in the car lanes . I don't feel one bit sorry for them when a truck blows them off their bike.

Here it is against the law to ride a bike in the street when there is a nearby bike trail available as an alternative.

There's this little thing called THE LAW which does not agree with this ^^^

In Florida the bicycle is legally defined as a vehicle. Bicyclists have the same rights to the roadways, and must obey the same traffic laws as the operators of other vehicles​

Unless you've spent time in the saddle riding a real road bike, you're not qualified to pass judgement on cyclists. Are there cyclists who are jerks?...sure there are. But we're all not that way. Trust me...there is no one who is more aware of their surroundings than an experienced road rider. I try my best to not hinder traffic...but there ARE times you must for your own safety.

Same as auto drivers...I've been hit by a milkshake thrown from a car...and i WAS riding in the widened shoulder bike lane...or the rednecks in trucks who pass you with inches to spare even though there was no traffic coming the other way.

I have yet to see any bicyclist get a ticket.

agnes!

 

[morethananyonex]

Where I live, accidents are classified as either 100, 75, 50, 25% at fault (or no fault). When a bicycle or pedestrian is involved the driver of the motor vehicle is always at fault, no matter what. That's the problem I have with this. If cyclists are not allowed on the sidewalks (and they aren't) then they should be treated as all the other vehicles are. Pedestrians too, if it's their stupid behaviour that causes them to be involved in an accident IMO they should be faulted, not the driver.

However, I'm aware this won't be a popular opinion.