JetBlue flight makes emergency landing.

[Maistre Gracey]

And you would be wrong. Most people don't hold their child as tightly as they would need to be doing to keep them safe when encountering turbulence. Remember it usually hits without much warning, people don't clutch their children to them when they are just sitting on a flight.

So what would I be wrong about?

MG

 

[Gracie09]

So what would I be wrong about?

MG

Define attending properly? If I am holding a baby giving it a bottle am I attending it properly? Reading a book? Playing patty cake? Or are you saying holding with a death grip? Which is unrealistic and not effective against 20 pounds of kid fall 500 feet in the air. Or crashing on a runway. The ntsb has done test on it. It's not safe. And they have also debunked the myth that if seats are required more people will drive and therefore more people will die. Last year a plane crashed j Canada and the only person injured or killed was a lap baby who flew from his mothers arms and died. Look up the Sioux city crash and read the account of the flight attendant who told people to put their babies in the ground (the procedure then that was deemed safest) only to have to restrain a mother from going back into the burning plane to find her kid who flew away from her. And the other kid who was fortunate to be picked up by a stranger and brought to safety when he also flew threw the air. If it is unsafe for my backpack to be out during take off and landing why is it okay for the equivalent size and weight human to be unrestrained? The only people who don't want this changed is the airlines. And since they have the money to buy influence they get their way.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Define attending properly? If I am holding a baby giving it a bottle am I attending it properly? Reading a book? Playing patty cake? Or are you saying holding with a death grip? Which is unrealistic and not effective against 20 pounds of kid fall 500 feet in the air. Or crashing on a runway. The ntsb has done test on it. It's not safe. And they have also debunked the myth that if seats are required more people will drive and therefore more people will die. Last year a plane crashed j Canada and the only person injured or killed was a lap baby who flew from his mothers arms and died. Look up the Sioux city crash and read the account of the flight attendant who told people to put their babies in the ground (the procedure then that was deemed safest) only to have to restrain a mother from going back into the burning plane to find her kid who flew away from her. And the other kid who was fortunate to be picked up by a stranger and brought to safety when he also flew threw the air. If it is unsafe for my backpack to be out during take off and landing why is it okay for the equivalent size and weight human to be unrestrained? The only people who don't want this changed is the airlines. And since they have the money to buy influence they get their way.

Properly attended, the way I intended in my earlier post, is holding the child securely when the seat belt sign is illuminated.

Not sure what the controversy is here. I agree a seat/car seat is a better option. That said, babies are not getting hurt everyday as lap children. You are always free to buy a seat if you wish. Nobody is mandating you hold your kid.

MG

 

[Gracie09]

Properly attended, the way I intended in my earlier post, is holding the child securely when the seat belt sign is illuminated.

Not sure what the controversy is here. I agree a seat/car seat is a better option. That said, babies are not getting hurt everyday as lap children. You are always free to buy a seat if you wish. Nobody is mandating you hold your kid.

MG

Right but my child can be hurt by another child being heldor not as the case may be. Most turbulence happens without warning so not chance for that seatbelt sign to come on before the kid is thrown out of the lap of its parent

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Right but my child can be hurt by another child being heldor not as the case may be. Most turbulence happens without warning so not chance for that seatbelt sign to come on before the kid is thrown out of the lap of its parent

Most turbulence does not happen without warning. It does happen, but not all that often.

MG

 

[KrazeeK120]

Properly attended, the way I intended in my earlier post, is holding the child securely when the seat belt sign is illuminated.

Not sure what the controversy is here. I agree a seat/car seat is a better option. That said, babies are not getting hurt everyday as lap children. You are always free to buy a seat if you wish. Nobody is mandating you hold your kid.

MG

Have you ever attempted to hold a child under 2 "securely" for more than a couple of minutes? Older infants/young toddlers don't sit still. They just don't. Heck, most pre-schoolers don't sit still for long durations. When my son is in my lap, he thinks it's playtime. He sits much better in his car seat than he does in my lap. I think he has a rudimentary understanding that car seat = going someplace (not playing). And if I took him on an airplane and attempted to hold him "securely" for the the time the seat belt sign is lit, not only would I likely not be able to do it, but he'd scream bloody murder, and no one wants to deal with that.

Just because babies aren't hurt every day as lap children doesn't mean it's a good idea fly with them as lap children. People aren't hurt every day by not wearing helmets while on bicycles or motorcycles either...but sometimes they are.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Have you ever attempted to hold a child under 2 "securely" for more than a couple of minutes? Older infants/young toddlers don't sit still. They just don't. Heck, most pre-schoolers don't sit still for long durations. When my son is in my lap, he thinks it's playtime. He sits much better in his car seat than he does in my lap. I think he has a rudimentary understanding that car seat = going someplace (not playing). And if I took him on an airplane and attempted to hold him "securely" for the the time the seat belt sign is lit, not only would I likely not be able to do it, but he'd scream bloody murder, and no one wants to deal with that.

Just because babies aren't hurt every day as lap children doesn't mean it's a good idea fly with them as lap children. People aren't hurt every day by not wearing helmets while on bicycles or motorcycles either...but sometimes they are.

I have never held a baby more than 30 seconds.

Again, this option is for kids under 2 years old, and not mandatory. Please feel free to buy a seat if you're not comfortable holding them.

As I said, it is a better option to buy the seat.

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Right but my child can be hurt by another child being heldor not as the case may be. Most turbulence happens without warning so not chance for that seatbelt sign to come on before the kid is thrown out of the lap of its parent

Heck... We all could be hurt by some kid being hurled through the air.... Or a laptop, or a beverage fling off the cart, or...????

 

[Gracie09]

Heck... We all could be hurt by some kid being hurled through the air.... Or a laptop, or a beverage fling off the cart, or...????

You're right we could. Except all those items are stowed prior to take off and landing (when most accidents happen). In fact the only items not secured during take off and landing are lap children. And a pilot may know there is turbulence ahead but sally in row sixteen a doesn't and is usually not given a warning. Clear air turbulence happens everyday. It happened in the JetBlue flight that started this thread with no warning.

 

[Gracie09]

I have never held a baby more than 30 seconds.

Again, this option is for kids under 2 years old, and not mandatory. Please feel free to buy a seat if you're not comfortable holding them.

As I said, it is a better option to buy the seat.

MG

Your first sentence explains a lot

 

[goofy4tink]

And you would be wrong. Most people don't hold their child as tightly as they would need to be doing to keep them safe when encountering turbulence. Remember it usually hits without much warning, people don't clutch their children to them when they are just sitting on a flight.

And this is the problem...that turbulence wasn't seen. Passengers were going about their business. I've been on 5 hr flights that had the 'please fasten seat belts' sign on the entire time. I doubt anyone is going to have a strong enough hold on a child, that entire time, to prevent said child from becoming a projectile if the plane drops a substantial amount!!!
Of course, I'm one of those parents that doesn't want to sit, holding a squirming toddler for hours on end!!! For most people that have lap babies, it's an expense issue. If they can get away without spending that addtl money for airfare, they will. And the vast majority of the time, it's all fine. For me, it's just not worth the possibility of something happening. Others can make their own choice.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Your first sentence explains a lot

I still don't understand your point.

All I'm saying is that if properly held, a lap child is not a huge safety risk. A car seat is better. If you want to buy a seat because you're more comfortable with that, please feel free to do so.

I'm miffed how one could take issue with that.

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

And this is the problem...that turbulence wasn't seen. Passengers were going about their business. I've been on 5 hr flights that had the 'please fasten seat belts' sign on the entire time. I doubt anyone is going to have a strong enough hold on a child, that entire time, to prevent said child from becoming a projectile if the plane drops a substantial amount!!!
Of course, I'm one of those parents that doesn't want to sit, holding a squirming toddler for hours on end!!! For most people that have lap babies, it's an expense issue. If they can get away without spending that addtl money for airfare, they will. And the vast majority of the time, it's all fine. For me, it's just not worth the possibility of something happening. Others can make their own choice.

More often than not when the seatbelt sign is on for five hours in smooth air, it's because the crew forgot to turn it off.

That doesn't really address the lap child issue, but figured I'd pass that along. I've also seen where the flight attendants ask for it on so they can complete their service more easily.

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

You're right we could. Except all those items are stowed prior to take off and landing (when most accidents happen). In fact the only items not secured during take off and landing are lap children. And a pilot may know there is turbulence ahead but sally in row sixteen a doesn't and is usually not given a warning. Clear air turbulence happens everyday. It happened in the JetBlue flight that started this thread with no warning.

As I said, turbulence certainly does happen without warning, but not all that often is severe turbulence encountered unexpectedly. When turbulence is expected the seatbelt sign will be turned on. If it's expected to be bad the flight attendants will be seated as well.

Severe turbulence during takeoff and landing is not really an issue. That said, if a lap child is not secured during takeoff and landing than the parent is not doing their job. No doubt that can cause a problem, but it's not the policy that's at fault; it's the execution.

MG

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

There is nothing wrong with a Child being held by a parent. The problem is generally the parent isn't actually holding the child.

MG

In severe turbulence, just like in a car accident (though different direction of forces), it is impossible to actually keep a child in your arms. The physics don't work.

And let's try to imagine keeping an iron grip on anyone for the entire length of a flight. Impossible.

EVERY study that's been done indicates that this is impossible and dangerous! But the FAA allows it because it's still probably safer then those same parents driving to Disney. But it's not safe.

(And if you read the accounts on this JetBlue incident no these people weren't wearing a seat belt)

A child under 2 weighs how much...well, my 9 month old weighs 24 lbs. Who knows how much he'll weigh when he's 2? Close to 40 lbs, perhaps? I'm not a big or strong person (5'3, 110 lbs) and it's already hard for me to keep a tight grip on him for more than a couple of minutes. Little kids are squirmy.

He rides in a car seat in the car. He would do the same in an airplane. If a vehicle has seatbelts, everyone should be buckled in, IMO. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the belts??

And this is the other problem The 2 and under rule has been around for YEARS. In the mean time the average weight of a new born has been going up. So the average two year old today is probably considerably bigger then they were when I was born over 50 years ago, but the "rules" haven't changed!

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/144/6/563.full.pdf

 

[KrazeeK120]

As I said, turbulence certainly does happen without warning, but not all that often is severe turbulence encountered unexpectedly. When turbulence is expected the seatbelt sign will be turned on. If it's expected to be bad the flight attendants will be seated as well.

Severe turbulence during takeoff and landing is not really an issue. That said, if a lap child is not secured during takeoff and landing than the parent is not doing their job. No doubt that can cause a problem, but it's not the policy that's at fault; it's the execution.

MG

It's really easy for someone who isn't a parent to accuse parents of "not doing their job." One thing I learned very quickly upon becoming a parent 9.5 months ago is not to judge other parents, unless they are abusing their kids or deliberately putting them in danger. Kids don't come with manuals or instructions. It's the most stressful learn-by-doing job there is.

I'd venture to guess that most people (myself included) have no idea what degree of turbulence it would take to send a kid out of their arms. No parent wants to hold a squirmy kid any tighter than they have to, and it's not physically possible (for most people) to wrangle them for as long as is necessary sometimes. I think many people assume that, since they can fly with their child as a lap baby, it must be safe, or it wouldn't be allowed. I don't think this is a case of parents not doing their job, it's a case of them not being educated on what their job is.

I really think everyone should be made to sit in a seat, regardless of age.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I did a cursory search to try to find how many lap children are hurt on airplanes, but I just can't find a number.
If anyone has some stats I would be very interested to see them.

MG

 

[stitchlovestink]

I did a cursory search to try to find how many lap children are hurt on airplanes, but I just can't find a number.
If anyone has some stats I would be very interested to see them.

MG

One child injured/killed in what is a VERY AVOIDABLE situation, is one TOO MANY!!

 

[Maistre Gracey]

One child injured/killed in what is a VERY AVOIDABLE situation, is one TOO MANY!!

I'm just looking for a number to determine just how safe it is. There's no such thing as "perfectly safe". There is risk in everything we do.

MG

 

[Gracie09]

I'm just looking for a number to determine just how safe it is. There's no such thing as "perfectly safe". There is risk in everything we do.

MG

IF you are really interested there is plenty of information on the ntsb site about how dangerous lap children are going back to 1979 when they first issued an opinion about the subject.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Search/pages/Results.aspx?k=lap children