Jesus changed my life!!!!!

[JennyMominRI]

Interesting post. I'm agnostic, but love the way you can express your beliefs without being offensive.
I can understand why you started this thread... since not all Christians are Born Again.

Well,not just that but I was not going to post in the born again thread...It interests me,but I respect that it is *their* thread and is more of a support thread..I was hoping for a thread where anyone could chime in..Yes we have threads that deal with religion ,but usually they are very specific or the evolve into religious debate out of some other topic like homosexuality,abortion etc.. I wa shoping for a place that anyone could come into and talk about religion.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I am predisposed to believe Christ fulfilled prophesy therefore I intrepret scripture in a way that confirms that Christ did indeed fulfill prophesy.

You may be predisposed to believe that Christ did not fulfill prophesy. You would therefore intrepret scripture in a way that would lend credence to your beliefs.

This is why people will be debating religion until the end of times

Of course we do. I agree with this

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

From a Christian perpective Jesus' messianic identity was misunderstood by the Jewish people. Sort of a "hidden in plain sight" thing. It is because he was so very different from traditional messianic expectations that he was not hailed as the Jewish Messiah. According to at least one gospel writer (Mark) and many modern scholars, Jesus' messianic identity was hidden intentionally preciely because Jesus knew that his identity would not be understood by the very people he was born into. This does not dispose of God's covenant with the Jews, but does open a new covenant by which Jesus truly can draw all people to himself.

 

[Fitswimmer]

This is why people will be debating religion until the end of times

True, but I'd rather discuss than debate. What I like about this thread is that there hasn't been a degeneration into the "I'm right, you're wrong" stuff. We're all just talking about what we believe and what led us there.

I chose to be Catholic when I was 18. My mother was Catholic, my Dad was Protestant. I went to the Baptist Sunday school until I was 14 and got thrown out because I said I didn't believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, but that it was a way to teach us that we can't run away from God. My Dad thought it was funny and said he was proud of me. A friend of mine was working as an organist at a Catholic church at the time and needed altos for his Christmas mass, so I joined the choir there. I'd had exposure to the Catholic church since I was little because all holidays revolved around Mass with my Mom's side of the family. (We all think that my Polish Great-Grandmother snuck me off to get Baptised Catholic as an infant but nobody really knows) I really loved the community so I stuck with it, studied the faith and joined the Church 4 years later. I did wander away for a while in my early 30's, spent some time in the New Age movement but was drawn back in a big way. Now I can't imagine being anywhere else, when I walk into church on Sunday it's like coming home. Nothing else does it for me.

 

[JennyMominRI]

From a Christian perpective Jesus' messianic identity was misunderstood by the Jewish people. Sort of a "hidden in plain sight" thing. It is because he was so very different from traditional messianic expectations that he was not hailed as the Jewish Messiah. According to at least one gospel writer (Mark) and many modern scholars, Jesus' messianic identity was hidden intentionally preciely because Jesus knew that his identity would not be understood by the very people he was born into. This does not dispose of God's covenant with the Jews, but does open a new covenant by which Jesus truly can draw all people to himself.

I have always believed that G-d can have more than one covenant..He can have his eternal covenant with Jews..He can have a covenant with Christans and even one with Muslims..Maybe we will all be judged by the covenant we are held under. Someone who never new about the G-d of Abraham would be judged under the noahide laws,which apply to everyone

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

From the way I read scripture -and understnd the origins of the Muslim people -God's relationhsip with the people of Ishmael stops somewhere short of "covenant". (See Genesis 21:15-19 or somewhere theerabouts -don't have BIble in hand at the moment) From a Jewish perspective, what is the distinction between "promise" and "covenant"? Is what is promised to Ishmael thru Hagar more along the lines of the Noahide laws?

 

[JennyMominRI]

True, but I'd rather discuss than debate. What I like about this thread is that there hasn't been a degeneration into the "I'm right, you're wrong" stuff. We're all just talking about what we believe and what led us there.

I chose to be Catholic when I was 18. My mother was Catholic, my Dad was Protestant. I went to the Baptist Sunday school until I was 14 and got thrown out because I said I didn't believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, but that it was a way to teach us that we can't run away from God. .

That would be another similarity between Christianity and Judaism..Jews(generally) view the Tanakh as having many allegories..Much of it is symbolic.. Jews don't generally believe in a 7 day creation etc..Many Jews look at the tanakh as a history book of sorts..A diary if you will, of Jews strugging to understand G-d..Therefeor it has biases etc and is told from a specific point of view.. Many see the stories of G-d ordering the Jews to kill people,destroy lands etc and view the OT G-d as angry. I don't personally believe a loving G-d orders the destructions of people...These verses sound more like people(hebrews) trying to justify their actions than truly representive of how G-d wants us to behave...I believe that G-d inspired the Tanakh,not that he dictated it
Jews also base beliefs and practices on Tradition ,much like Catholics do..Jews ,like Catholics are not Sola Scriptora.

 

[JennyMominRI]

From the way I read scripture -and understnd the origins of the Muslim people -God's relationhsip with the people of Ishmael stops somewhere short of "covenant". (See Genesis 21:15-19 or somewhere theerabouts -don't have BIble in hand at the moment) From a Jewish perspective, what is the distinction between "promise" and "covenant"? Is what is promised to Ishmael thru Hagar more along the lines of the Noahide laws?

In my opinion a promise is one sided...."I will do this for you "
A covenant involves give and take...You do this(circumsize,keep my commandments) and I will do this(all of the various promises to the israelites)
I don't know if that a *jewish* understanding though.

I'd have to have a Q'uaran in front of me to know more specifics about G-d covenants with Muslims..

The Noahide laws are G-ds laws for all of mankind...There are 7 basic laws,sort of an abridged 10 commndments..Though shall not steal, murder etc.. I'd have to look up th actual references but they are in genesis in the Noah story..There is actually a growing Noahide movement worldwide...Converts to Judaism are actually encouraged to accept the Noahide laws rather than convert..Judiasm really does not make conversion *easy*

From Judaism 101

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion). In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.

There is a growing movement of non-Jews who have consciously accepted these seven laws of Noah and chosen to live their lives in accordance with these laws. This movement is referred to as B'nei Noach (Children of Noah). For more information about the B'nei Noach movement and the Noahic commandments, see Chavurath B'nei Noach of Fort Worth, Texas.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Everyone should watch the Trading Spouses episode tonight..It has a family of Orthodox Jews.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Is there a difference between the Torah and the Tanakh?

A covenant involves give and take...You do this(circumsize,keep my commandments) and I will do this(all of the various promises to the israelites)

I was taught the same definition of covenant when I took Theology at a Catholic college, minus the circumcison part. Keep the Commandments and you shall receive increased grace from God.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Torah is first five books only (Law). Tanakh is the whole of Hebrew scripture (Law, Prophets, History)

 

[JennyMominRI]

Is there a difference between the Torah and the Tanakh?



I was taught the same definition of covenant when I took Theology at a Catholic college, minus the circumcison part. Keep the Commandments and you shall receive increased grace from God.

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.

Written Torah

This is a list of the books of Written Torah, in the order in which they appear in Jewish translations, with the Hebrew name of the book, a translation of the Hebrew name (where it is not the same as the English name), and English names of the books (where it is not the same as the Hebrew name). The Hebrew names of the first five books are derived from the first few words of the book. The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are some significant differences in the translations.

TORAH (The Law):

Berei****h (In the beginning...) (Genesis)
Shemoth (The names...) (Exodus)
Vayiqra (And He called...) (Leviticus)
Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers)
Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy)
NEVI'IM (The Prophets):

Yehoshua (Joshua)
Shoftim (Judges)
Shmuel (I &II Samuel)
Melakhim (I & II Kings)
Yeshayah (Isaiah)
Yirmyah (Jeremiah)
Yechezqel (Ezekiel)
The Twelve (treated as one book)
Hoshea (Hosea)
Yoel (Joel)
Amos
Ovadyah (Obadiah)
Yonah (Jonah)
Mikhah (Micah)
Nachum
Chavaqquq (Habbakkuk)
Tzefanyah (Zephaniah)
Chaggai
Zekharyah (Zechariah)
Malakhi
KETHUVIM (The Writings):

Tehillim (Psalms)
Mishlei (Proverbs)
Iyov (Job)
Shir Ha-Shirim (Song of Songs)
Ruth
Eikhah (Lamentations)
Qoheleth (the author's name) (Ecclesiastes)
Esther
Daniel
Ezra & Nechemyah (Nehemiah) (treated as one book)
Divrei Ha-Yamim (The words of the days) (Chronicles)

Written Torah is often referred to as the Tanakh, which is an acrostic of Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

 

[scraptoons]

Hi Scraptoons...Fulfilling the prophecies are very importan..The thing is,while Jews share some Messianic prophecies with Christians,others are different...One exaple would be the virginbirth prophecy...It just doesn't exist in the Tanakh..The Jews are not and were not looking for a virgin birth. They also were not looking for s savior...That is just not a Jewish concept... The messiah also must have a very specific lineage,One that Jesus does not have. The Jewish messiah must fulfill the lineage propecy in accordance with Jewish law.
There have been many failed Messiahs over the years..SOme with much better qualification,like Bar Kochba for example

Do you have Isaiah 7:14?
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

As far as lineage of David....In a Christian prospective, being an adoptive son or daughter of G-d is significant us in the parallelism that Jesus was adopted and raised by Joseph, the decendant of David.

I know many parents who have adopted and consider those children to be just as related as their biological children.

I do agree with you and others that this can be discussed until the end of time. We all have been raised to believe or not that we may have the truth. We will all know in time won't we?

I pray that everyone is seeking the will of our Father above and that we all have our hearts in the right place.

Isn't diversity interesting?

 

[Fitswimmer]

Isn't diversity interesting?

Yes!! That's exactly why we needed this thread! Thanks, Jenny!

 

[JennyMominRI]

Do you have Isaiah 7:14?
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

As far as lineage of David....In a Christian prospective, being an adoptive son or daughter of G-d is significant us in the parallelism that Jesus was adopted and raised by Joseph, the decendant of David.

I know many parents who have adopted and consider those children to be just as related as their biological children.

I do agree with you and others that this can be discussed until the end of time. We all have been raised to believe or not that we may have the truth. We will all know in time won't we?

I pray that everyone is seeking the will of our Father above and that we all have our hearts in the right place.

Isn't diversity interesting?

Isaiah 7;14
The Tanakh reads, Lo,The Young woman will be with child..The Hebrew word used is Almah,which means young woman. Bethulah means virgin...Isaiah uses the word Bethulah several times in Isaiah ,in the proper manner..Further the contect of the verse is this

The setting is the Syro-Ephraimite war (ca. 734 B.C.). Wicked King Ahaz of Judah was frantic about Ephraim (another name for the northern kingdom, Israel) and Damascus (capital of Syria), which were plotting a preemptive strike. Isaiah enters, offering a sign. Ahaz demurs. Isaiah storms at him for his lack of faith and then provides a sign anyway: A male child would be born. Before this child is old enough to know to "refuse evil and choose the good," Assyria would lay waste both Samaria and Damascus (7:16 ). [This sub-prophecy, in fact, came true in 2 Kings 16:9 ; 17:5-6 .] Then, to punish Ahaz, Assyria itself, with Egypt, would arise as a far greater threat.

. If Ahaz was concerned with an imminent attack from Samaria and Syria, why offer a sign that would not occur for seven centuries? To Ahaz this would be no sign at all. Also, if the Immanuel child was God incarnate, how could Isaiah speak of a time when Immanuel would not know enough to choose good over evil? What about divine omniscience? Note also the striking parallel between verses 7:16 and 8:4 . Here is Isaiah prophesying almost identically about both children. . You can hardly blame people for seeing a special significance in the name Immanu'el, Hebrew for "God with us," but such language and imagery was right at home in the world of old Jewish nomenclature, where every other proper name seemed a reminder of God's presence. Thus we have Isaiah, which means "God's help"; Michael , "Like unto God"; Israel," "Striving with God"; Elihu, "He is my God"; Adonijah , "Yahweh Lord"; and a host of others


Just too add to this..Adoptiion is very important in Judaism and an adopted child is just as important as one that is not...That has nothing to do with whether or not lineage changes when someone is adopted

 

[caitycaity]

saxsoon (are you a saxophonist and basoonist?) - i definitely accept your apology. i'm sorry i assumed the worst. if you knew the number of times i have put my foot in my mouth (both around here and irl), maybe you wouldn't feel so bad.

brenda and chip - thanks for the vote of confidence. last night after i posted about debbie and hound, i thought about the two of you (and missjasmine) and started thinking i shouldn't have started naming names since i was sure to forget people. i have enjoyed having discussions about religion with you all.

i identify myself as an atheist because that is what i am right now. however, i am certainly a reluctant atheist. i want to believe, i have just never been able to get myself there.

 

[Chipperdini]

brenda and chip - thanks for the vote of confidence.

You're welcome. I'm glad Brenda said something, because more than once I've wanted to say something similar and I was happy to echo her post.

i have enjoyed having discussions about religion with you all.

Thank you very much. I personally don't think I've done so well here in that department overall, but I do appreciate your kind words. Thanks.

i identify myself as an atheist because that is what i am right now. however, i am certainly a reluctant atheist. i want to believe, i have just never been able to get myself there.

I'm having difficulty coming up with the words to express what I'd like to say. It will have to suffice to simply say that the thoughts and feelings I'd like to express are positive.

----
OT, but I hope you've had some great success with your geneological research.

 

[JoyG]

i identify myself as an atheist because that is what i am right now. however, i am certainly a reluctant atheist. i want to believe, i have just never been able to get myself there.

You know what the Bible says about that? "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God." I would encourage you that if you want to believe, but you aren't there yet, that you try reading the Bible. Or if the case may be, try reading it again. I think if you're really looking for faith, you have to be exposed to the word of God. I would start with the gospel of John. Then, my suggestion would be to read the shortest books of the New Testament first after that...but that's just me .

Good luck on your journey.

 

[TENIA66]

i identify myself as an atheist because that is what i am right now. however, i am certainly a reluctant atheist. i want to believe, i have just never been able to get myself there.[/QUOTE]

You know, you never will get yourself there. Jesus will do it for you, open your heart and mind, relax, request his blessing and salvation, forgiveness for your sins. You will feel your body and soul cleansed anew. John 3:16 will lead you from there!!

Looking forward to seeing you on the other side!!

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

caitycaity, sounds like other shave given you some good advice. I became a believer as an adult. The first book of the Bible I remember reading was Mark. It might help to pick up a good readable translation as well. Different translations seem to be a better fit for different people. I have always had trouble reading the King James Version. Maybe the New International Version or The Message is a good place to start. Either translation should be readily available in a bookstore. Best wishes on your search!