January Boycott of Disney underway.....

[mitros]

OK, so even though you did not give a straight yes or no answer,you indeed are saying, Walt, moron, Ei$ner, a god, right?

 

[JeffH]

OK, so even though you did not give a straight yes or no answer,you indeed are saying, Walt, moron, Ei$ner, a god, right?

If you would actually read what I have written, the ONLY subject that I mentioned the word moronic was in regards to Walt's concept of EPCOT. As far as EPCOT goes, Walt WAS moronic in thinking that you can build a perfect city by making the city perfect, when in fact it is the people that make the city and they can never be perfect...just look at the discussions on this board to prove that (no matter how good something is, someone will see it as bad and bash it).
Sure, Walt 'invented' all the other cartoon characters, but almost all of his movies were Disney adaptations of existing (and in most cases, public domain) stories, while during Eisner's reign almost all the movies are based on original stories...even the (not-so-classic) sequels were at least new and original stories written by Disney writers.

 

[anniet]

Originally posted by JeffH
If you would actually read what I have written, the ONLY subject that I mentioned the word moronic was in regards to Walt's concept of EPCOT. As far as EPCOT goes, Walt WAS moronic in thinking that you can build a perfect city by making the city perfect, when in fact it is the people that make the city and they can never be perfect...just look at the discussions on this board to prove that (no matter how good something is, someone will see it as bad and bash it).

I don't think the P in EPCOT stood for Perfect. Walt wasn't expecting to create a "perfect city by making the city perfect"---Walt wanted a community with cutting edge technology---Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. His vision was of a city that would be ahead of it's time, and personally I think it was an awesome idea, even if it wasn't ever going to be a theme park.

He was a visionary and when he was alive Disney's glimpses into the future were brilliant--imho, every since he died Disney-the corporation- hasn't gotten the future right, they just gloss over it, like the ending of SE. They don't know what the heck they are doing. The movie Minority Report gave some way better ideas of what the future may be like, why can't Disney come up with ideas like that? Watching that movie anyone can get at least 10 ideas of futuristic attractions that are far better than anything that's in EPCOT now(although I will hold judgement on Mission Space, since I've not yet seen it) Apparently nobody at Disney cares anymore to look at what the future might hold with the same passion that Walt did.

 

[mitros]

I know we are not supposed to start fights and be mean on these boards, but I'm just trying to clarify your thoughts. Maybe I'm missing something, so I'll try to be clear on what I'm trying to find out from you. Simply put, do you dislike Walt Disney and what he did, and like Eisner for what he did? I'll let you have the last word on the subject. Thanks.

 

[Goofyposter]

Walt WAS moronic in thinking that you can build a perfect city by making the city perfect

Jeff.....I understand that by building a "perfect" house.....that doesn't mean you'll have "perfect" occupants.......but ......Do you mean by your comment that you don't think that Walt Disney thought that "epcot" would be a vision of a futuristic community that included less than perfect inhabitants????

 

[JeffH]

I don't think the P in EPCOT stood for Perfect

Actually it does...
It stands for Prototype, which means model, which means ideal, which means perfect.
And the C stands for Community (which includes the people), not City.
So based on the original goal, based on the name, Walt did think that he could create an ideal community of tomorrow by designing an ideal city.
But of course nobody (not even me) really can answer this question since the project never got off the ground.
---
I love Walt Disney.
I voted for him as man of the Century in the Epcot poll.
Walt Disney was an amazingly innovative and influential human being whose whole life was based on bringing happiness to the human race. I think he'd be appalled at the miserable and hatefilled people still in the world.

...he studied the ways of Hitler and Stalin and Castro...(he) had a massive coronary and dropped dead

I also think that he'd be just as upset over people associating Eisner to the above and wishing him die of a massive coronary, as he would be of those who accused him (Walt) of being a German sympathizer during WWII.

Disney's glimpses into the future were brilliant--imho

Then how do you explain the horrible example of Tomorrow that Walt presented when Tomorrowland opened at WDW in 1972? Nobody's been able to invision the future in a theme park...mainly because it is the future and by definition it is what we don't know about (because it isn't here yet) and how can you depict something that we aren't advanced enough to know how to do? Even shows like Star Trek could instantly become stupid if we, tomorrow, figured out how to use Engangled Particles for communication next week (which would enable instantaneous communications over unlimited distances). This is why the current concept of Tomorrowland is so brilliant as the tomorrow that never will be.

 

[All Aboard]

It stands for Prototype, which means model, which means ideal, which means perfect.

Actually, a prototype is an early working model, one that serves as the basis for for additional future work. They are generally an example, something tangible with which to make decisions on how to improve. Prototypes are hardly ever "perfect."

 

[MasterGracy]

I guess this was actually a good thread. It showed us who the real fans are.

Interesting.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
I guess this was actually a good thread. It showed us who the real fans are.

Interesting.

So you aren't a real fan if you disagree with your way of thinking? Interesting indeed.

 

[Chuck S]

So, are the "real" fans the people that spend their money at Disney theme parks, buy DVC, plan vacations, buy Disney products - all enabling the company to spend more on R & D? Or are they the ones that sit around pouting and saying "I'm not gonna go because you're not doing it the way I want you to?"

 

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by Chuck S
So, are the "real" fans the people that spend their money at Disney theme parks, buy DVC, plan vacations, buy Disney products - all enabling the company to spend more on R & D? Or are they the ones that sit around pouting and saying "I'm not gonna go because you're not doing it the way I want you to?"

From what I've seen most of those here who critique Disney go to the parks and go quite often in fact. So what does that make them? Fake fans?

Why is it so bad for a fan to discuss those changes that he or she doesn't agree with?

 

[Another Voice]

"So, are the "real" fans the people that spend their money at Disney theme parks, buy DVC, plan vacations, buy Disney products - all enabling the company to spend more on R & D?"

No - the real fans are the ones who don't buy cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standards and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases.

Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks, who dream up excuses for every mistake, or who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence.

And it's the true fans who especially refuse to allow a greedy CEO to continue strip mining Disney for his personal fortune.

 

[Chuck S]

No - the real fans are the ones who don't buy cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standards and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases.

Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks, who dream up excuses for every mistake, or who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence.

And it's the true fans who especially refuse to allow a greedy CEO to continue strip mining Disney for his personal fortune.

Hmmm...based on the definition of fan...short for fanatic...and using a Thesarus "crank, zealot, bigot, maniac, extremist"...I whole heartedly agree.

 

[MasterGracy]

ANOTHER VOICE,

You hit the nail on the head. You are a true Disney fan.

 

[RickinNYC]

I, for one, do not need validation from an individual who experiences outbursts of e-tantrums when any one person or group does not agree with his/her opinions. MasterGracy, you can keep your estimation of who is a true Disney Fan.

And by the way, this is the Debate Board, not the I'm Going To Whine And Use Passive/Aggressive Insults When People Don't Agree With Me Board.

 

[Another Voice]

"crank, zealot, bigot, maniac, extremist"..."

Yup, pretty much the only people that can enjoy George of the Jungle 2.

Please enjoy your version of Disney® for as long as it lasts.

 

[doombuggy]

Interesting thread. I agree with some things, disagree with others. But very interesting.

I have never heard of this fan club, though. And doombuggies.com is a great site. Did the OP have a bad experience?

Semper Fi~

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Here's the original of that little fairytale claimed by MasterGracey on page 4 of this thread. Dave would be interested to know that you wrote something so similar - 2 years after he did. Where did you say you got the inspiration again?

http://www.pruiksma.com/A NOT So Silly Symphony.html

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Another Voice
No - the real fans are the ones who don't buy cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standards and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases.

Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks, who dream up excuses for every mistake, or who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence.

I re-up my Annual Pass every year, eat at some of the restaraunts when the mood strikes me, buy pins to add to my collection and that is about it for merchandise, and stay one night a year at a Disney resort because I have a house down here. What does that make me?

 

[JeffH]

cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standards

Exactly what are we talking about here? What merchandise? Compared to what? Or are we again making general non-specific unsubstantiated attacks in an attempt to defame?

and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases.

What failed cable channels? I haven't heard of any of the Disney cable channels failing. Sure, they bought a failing cable channel, how is it doing now, though? ABC failing, I think not...like all the networks they've had their ups (#1 in 2000, and last month) and their downs (pretty much since then), but overall I think ABC was a major coup. And what Internet projectS are we talking about? I remember GO.COM, that's about it...and considering all the money lost by about EVERY corporation on Internet investments that went bust, Disney came away relatively unscathed. I know nothing about airplane leases, but I know that every company makes gambles and sometimes they lose...that's part of business.
=========
Seems though we are arguing about the quality of Disney now verses the good old days. Well now wins...
Good old days:
We were given a sized down clone of a ~20 year old Disneyland. There was no new tech developed, hardly any originality (MMR,which was ripped out), a joke of a Tommorowland and 2 nice hotels.
Now the entertainment quality and new tech introduced in the last 15 years puts the first 15 years to shame:
The amazing and impressive Animal Kingdom (which was the result of a decade of research and development), including
Dinosaur, Kali River rapids (short, but beautiful), and the safari.
The equally impressive Animal Kingdom Lodge and Wilderness Lodge.
The build-out of Downtown Disney/Pleasure Island.
Body Wars/Star Tours
Fantasmic
Rock and Roller Coaster
Tower of Terror
Test Track
Philharmagic
Mission: Space
Quality LIVE shows all over instead of the few lip sync junk they used to serve up.
Landscaping is more diverse, lush and more beautiful than it ever has been.

Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks

What less? Are you insane? WDW offers so much more than ever on so many levels for so many interests that it boggles the mind, at costs less than other limited theme parks charge?
Or are you one of those still hung up on the concept that the MK used to stay open until 2am back when there was only 1 dinky little park in order to accomodate the multitude of guests. Get real! Park hours have ALWAYS been based on attendance, were then, are now.
We have 4x high quality parks to choose from as well as high quality water parks.
We have many high quality dining choices now, many featuring characters. We see many many many more characters thoughout the parks.
More parades and more spontaneous entertainment.
The Cast Members are just as friendly and tons more fun than they've ever been.
more HIGH QUALITY merchandise to help you remember your special time with.
We have many diverse night-time activities to enjoy including fine dining, mini-golf, movies, CircDeOle(or whatever it's called), nightclubs, shopping, or park-hop to see Fantasmic or Reflections of Earth.
In the good old days you had long lines, now we have Fast Pass.
In the good old days you had to pay for every ride, now we can park hop and ride whatever we want to.

...who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence.

I have no idea what this means?!?

a greedy CEO to continue strip mining Disney for his personal fortune.

What are you talking about??? Eisner's pay is not excessive for a CEO in his position. This is nothing but a low, crass, baseless shot at a man who had devoted his life to the company and created a remarkable entertainment empire...and like Walt, made the Earth a happier (and more magical) place to live.

Oh, and let me try to understand...we are suppose to be boycotting Disney for what?
They just opened Philharmagic and Mission: Space and are agressively building the Everest Project in AK, the proven Stunt Car show in MGM and the proven Soaring over California in Epcot all three of which are unique original Disney creations.
Disney easily won the box office crown in 2003 (for about the 7th time in the last 10 years), with the #1 and #3 film. And the marvelous Pirates of the Caribean entertained millions and just won the people's choice award for best film (beating Lord of the Rings II). Brother Bear did a respectible $83,689,855 in 2003.

Oh, and let me be the first to post a typical glib, meaningless response for those of you who don't seem to know the difference between constructive criticism and baseless bashing and slander...
"Yadda, yadda, yadda"