Is Universal Orlando Repeating Disney World's Mistake?

[Allen Conway]

I'm guessing they are referring to the Florida resident passes. They introduced Silver and Gold, both of which DO have blackout days. So perhaps from a Florida resident standpoint (although I don't have historical prices), the statement was true. However, not stating that it was exclusive to Florida residents is misleading.

Yes that's what I was referring to; I am a Florida Resident AP holder and quoting my pricing experience over the last several years. I would gather that the lion's share of AP holders are in-state as the closest border is almost 3 hours from the park by driving, so I would think I'm speaking to the majority in this case when it comes to AP purchasing.

 

[Madonna3]

Things aren't going to change until a recession happens.

I completely disagree. I think in a recession Disney became the best value for the very small vacation dollars. Now, people have money and confidence to go on vacation and they're looking for the best experience for their dollar. I think things are changing because
a: the community spoke when Disney launched the ridiculous paid EMH. Even giving it away didn't make people want to pay for it so it went away.
b: attendance is dropping, but hotels are holding so people are staying at Disney hotels (no resort fees, good transportation), but venturing off property for other experiences
c: Disney has priced it so that people are taking "once in a lifetime" trips and then going elsewhere.

So, I completely disagree that it is going to take a recession to change things. I think things are headed for change because the community is fighting back with their wallets.

I said on another thread (I'm a poet and don't know it!) that I'm glad to see APs rise in price. #1 - As said above, all APs do is make weekends at WDW unbearable. #2 - Why should someone pay so much less than I do to enjoy the same experiences? It's just not right. They're still too cheap in my opinion.

I hope this is some kind of satire. You think the $2400 a year that I pay in annual passes is too cheap?! Not only do I pay that a year for just tickets, but I pay over $5,000 a year in DVC dues and fees, I normally pay for a 1-2 night hotel stay at a deluxe or the minimum a moderate when I do visit the parks once or twice per month, I always eat on property, and we always buy t-shirts or some other cute item we just had to have. So tell me how it is that I am paying so much less than you to enjoy the same experiences??

Edit to add: We also take three long trips per year at Flower and Garden, 4th of July, and then again in the fall or Christmas.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

That's actually who I am - a Florida Resident AP holder Yes we do go on the weekends and might spend less overall on tickets/admission per day via an AP. However, we also spend a lot more at Disney Springs, souvenirs, food, long weekend visits at Disney hotels, etc. on a routine basis that makes Disney a bunch of $$ as compared to the person that might only come once every year or 2.

Exactly...those comments were hall of fame silly...

I was differentiating what I said...which is i'm glad they don't have a $200 Florida AP...it would be a quagmire...

But $400 a year is FINE...for the seller and sell-e

Not $1000...which is where this out of control train is heading...

They have pumped chests and tight pants going into their Star Wars development...
...which I'm sorry - has just as much of a chance of being high volume, low innovation, age "friendly" meat market attractions behind facades that blow the budget...
...as it does being "great"

 

[rteetz]

I completely disagree. I think in a recession Disney became the best value for the very small vacation dollars. Now, people have money and confidence to go on vacation and they're looking for the best experience for their dollar. I think things are changing because
a: the community spoke when Disney launched the ridiculous paid EMH. Even giving it away didn't make people want to pay for it so it went away.
b: attendance is dropping, but hotels are holding so people are staying at Disney hotels (no resort fees, good transportation), but venturing off property for other experiences
c: Disney has priced it so that people are taking "once in a lifetime" trips and then going elsewhere.

So, I completely disagree that it is going to take a recession to change things. I think things are headed for change because the community is fighting back with their wallets.

When I say a recession will change things is I mean Disney will discount heavily and won't raise prices as much or as high because people don't have the money.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Things aren't going to change until a recession happens.

I agree...

Actually two things:
1. Global recession
2. The current management completely overplaying their hand. They are short term stock greedy and getting bad advice - if any at all.

Iger is a sitcom guy - not the chairman of the Fed or a noble prize winning economist. Just like his predecessor (a movie creative guy)...as time goes on they are trusting their unfiltered opinions too much and longterm
Sound decisions are starting to be ignored.

 

[Madonna3]

When I say a recession will change things is I mean Disney will discount heavily and won't raise prices as much or as high because people don't have the money.

But that's where we disagree. People do have the money, they just don't want to spend it on Disney for the price Disney is asking.

ok. Let me put it this way. I am a high income earner. So is my husband. We have plenty of money to go on vacation. However, I don't want to pay what Disney is asking anymore. So, it's not that I don't have the money to go and many others like me are in the same position. It's just for the money I spend at Disney, I can go to Europe and that's what we're doing.

Disney is no longer the value for me it once was. I can use my DVC points to convert to RCI and travel overseas.

Don't get me wrong. I still go to Disney because it's in my backyard and I enjoy it, but as I said earlier, we take 3 long vacations a year and when I say long I mean around 5-7 days. It used to be a no-brainer to just book Disney for that time. However, this year, instead of going to Disney for Christmas, we're going to St. Augustine.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

When I say a recession will change things is I mean Disney will discount heavily and won't raise prices as much or as high because people don't have the money.

I would agree...
...except that's NOT what happened In the last - by far the biggest recession in history.

Just like the dining plan being a screen for price increases that I screamed about (which is exactly what happened)...

...the free dining effect had them raise base prices only to discount. "Kohls pricing". The problem is we all are now getting hit on the backswing...as again predicted.

...this ticket discussion is the next manifestation...huge jumps that will never be Reversed in "good times"...with short duration gimmicks in the bad times.

Every single person gets squeezed longterm by these policies.

Unless you book a single trip on a depth of the economy promo and never look back...but that's not how Disney markets it's business.
Can't have it both ways.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

But that's where we disagree. People do have the money, they just don't want to spend it on Disney for the price Disney is asking.

ok. Let me put it this way. I am a high income earner. So is my husband. We have plenty of money to go on vacation. However, I don't want to pay what Disney is asking anymore. So, it's not that I don't have the money to go and many others like me are in the same position. It's just for the money I spend at Disney, I can go to Europe and that's what we're doing.

Disney is no longer the value for me it once was. I can use my DVC points to convert to RCI and travel overseas.

Disney knows they have a captive audience with little self control...

If people actually had the intestinal fortitude to say "no"...things would be much better now...to say nothing of the future.

 

[Roxyfire]

Disney knows they have a captive audience with little self control...

If people actually had the intestinal fortitude to say "no"...things would be much better now...to say nothing of the future.

The sooner people realize what's good for the consumer is not good for wall street the smarter they will be. There's way too many people willing to throw their money at faceless corporations for very little return.

 

[Madonna3]

Exactly. When Free Dining first came out, it was amazing. I got a room at POFQ (I was still a grad student then so POFQ was the best I could do), we already had AP's, I only had to buy a 1 day ticket at @ $80 per ticket, and I got FREE food with tips and appetizers for around $937. I spent a week at Disney for $937 all inclusive. It was an awful trip (for different reasons), but it was one of the BEST values. Immediately after that, the dining plan changed and they took tips away. Ok, fine. I can pay tips. But then they took the apps away and that's when I started looking really hard at the big picture. I switched to Tables in Wonderland after that.

My annual passes started at around $400/year. I got into all the parks, free parking, water parks, and Disney Quest. It was a great value. Then, they raised the price. Then they raised it again. Then they raised it again. Then it went up again, but I lost Disney Quest. Now I pay around $600/year per pass.

Hotel room prices soared. Deluxes made more sense than moderates. So, I bought DVC. Now, I can't get into the hotels I purchased because "owners" rent out their points. And when I say "owners" I mean businesses posing as "owners"

But Disney did it. They gave me a $937 trip in 2007 and hooked me. Now, I'm sitting on the fence with do I keep going, or do I rent out my DVC points, pay off the contract, and just make money off the investment until Disney finds a way to end that. Btw, if that were to happen, I don't think I would be totally against it.

I never ever, ever, wanted to go to Universal.... until last year. Now, I am trying to decide if I should give up my WDW passes in exchange for a year at Universal.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

But that's where we disagree. People do have the money, they just don't want to spend it on Disney for the price Disney is asking.

ok. Let me put it this way. I am a high income earner. So is my husband. We have plenty of money to go on vacation. However, I don't want to pay what Disney is asking anymore. So, it's not that I don't have the money to go and many others like me are in the same position. It's just for the money I spend at Disney, I can go to Europe and that's what we're doing.

Disney is no longer the value for me it once was. I can use my DVC points to convert to RCI and travel overseas.

Don't get me wrong. I still go to Disney because it's in my backyard and I enjoy it, but as I said earlier, we take 3 long vacations a year and when I say long I mean around 5-7 days. It used to be a no-brainer to just book Disney for that time. However, this year, instead of going to Disney for Christmas, we're going to St. Augustine.

It actually might be both. I know a number of people still feeling the effects of the last crisis and just can't afford Disney so just go to the beach, etc. ... and I also know people that are doing quite well and are taking advantage of the strong dollar and going to Europe etc.

I think Disney used to be that nice / special trip that "most" families could take but now with the shrinking of the middle class it kinda lost that position

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It actually might be both. I know a number of people still feeling the effects of the last crisis and just can't afford Disney so just go to the beach, etc. ... and I also know people that are doing quite well and are taking advantage of the strong dollar and going to Europe etc.

I think Disney used to be that nice / special trip that "most" families could take but now with the shrinking of the middle class it kinda lost that position

Exactly...Disney parks were 100% built/designed as middle class destinations...

Iger's abandonment of that reality in pricing approach will prove disasterous.

...which means if that meant not generating as much revenue for his stock options and bonuses...then that is EXACTLY what he should have done.

Disney parks are not "luxury" or "elite"...in fact - in many ways they are currently the reminants of the upper middle class trying to convince themselves that they are "elite".

Real wealth has no interest in the limited services of the grand Floridian or polyneisian...or the non existent services of DVC.

The four seasons? Yeah...maybe that. That's why they sold bill gates the land. You have to be rich to serve rich...not the $100,000 a year "general manager" of beach club.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Exactly. When Free Dining first came out, it was amazing. I got a room at POFQ (I was still a grad student then so POFQ was the best I could do), we already had AP's, I only had to buy a 1 day ticket at @ $80 per ticket, and I got FREE food with tips and appetizers for around $937. I spent a week at Disney for $937 all inclusive. It was an awful trip (for different reasons), but it was one of the BEST values. Immediately after that, the dining plan changed and they took tips away. Ok, fine. I can pay tips. But then they took the apps away and that's when I started looking really hard at the big picture. I switched to Tables in Wonderland after that.

My annual passes started at around $400/year. I got into all the parks, free parking, water parks, and Disney Quest. It was a great value. Then, they raised the price. Then they raised it again. Then they raised it again. Then it went up again, but I lost Disney Quest. Now I pay around $600/year per pass.

Hotel room prices soared. Deluxes made more sense than moderates. So, I bought DVC. Now, I can't get into the hotels I purchased because "owners" rent out their points. And when I say "owners" I mean businesses posing as "owners"

But Disney did it. They gave me a $937 trip in 2007 and hooked me. Now, I'm sitting on the fence with do I keep going, or do I rent out my DVC points, pay off the contract, and just make money off the investment until Disney finds a way to end that. Btw, if that were to happen, I don't think I would be totally against it.

I never ever, ever, wanted to go to Universal.... until last year. Now, I am trying to decide if I should give up my WDW passes in exchange for a year at Universal.

Not to tangent (but these price issues trancend all the different Disney discussions)...
But you bring up DVC and the main reason why it is faltering some is that they forgot why it was created in the first place: which was guaranteed ancillary revenue.

Where do the park profits come from? The merchandise.

What happened with the merchandise? Iger, Eisner and the worse exec in American History - Paul pressler - gutted the stuff and took all desire to buy away from the loyal fanbase. That is a disasterous approach.

So the APs/dvcs stop buying...so they look for ways to increase revenue...so they jack the points up beyond reasonable and start jacking ticket prices...

Which diminish sales and make the whole business more miserable and susceptible to severe
Economic downturns.

You don't have to tell me to stay on topic, rteetz, I'll stop...I'm pointing out all these things are interconnected.

 

[jade1]

II hope this is some kind of satire. You think the $2400 a year that I pay in annual passes is too cheap?! Not only do I pay that a year for just tickets, but I pay over $5,000 a year in DVC dues and fees, I normally pay for a 1-2 night hotel stay at a deluxe or the minimum a moderate when I do visit the parks once or twice per month, I always eat on property, and we always buy t-shirts or some other cute item we just had to have. So tell me how it is that I am paying so much less than you to enjoy the same experiences??

Edit to add: We also take three long trips per year at Flower and Garden, 4th of July, and then again in the fall or Christmas.

we take 3 long vacations a year and when I say long I mean around 5-7 days. It used to be a no-brainer to just book Disney for that time.

Just curious, where do you stay that is about 50 points a night correct? 2BR 3 Bath BLT?

The pass doesn't sound too bad really (still expensive of course) as you do about 18 days on the trips and another 18 or so during the months, about $16 a day?

 

[Whatsthegoodword]

I hope this is some kind of satire. You think the $2400 a year that I pay in annual passes is too cheap?! Not only do I pay that a year for just tickets, but I pay over $5,000 a year in DVC dues and fees, I normally pay for a 1-2 night hotel stay at a deluxe or the minimum a moderate when I do visit the parks once or twice per month, I always eat on property, and we always buy t-shirts or some other cute item we just had to have. So tell me how it is that I am paying so much less than you to enjoy the same experiences??

Edit to add: We also take three long trips per year at Flower and Garden, 4th of July, and then again in the fall or Christmas.

No satire! $2400 for all those visits is a bargain, and an insult by Disney to someone like me who lives too far away to make weekend or multiple visits. I pay a number approaching that for one trip. You're paying something like $25 a day to go to the park? I pay ~$80. YES, I wish they would jack up the prices of APs, therefore cutting their number, so that the park wouldn't be quite so crowded when I get to go.

 

[PuppyJonathan]

Huh? I wasn't responding to you; merely offering my opinion. ...and you call it "nonsense." You're such a big internet bully.

Honestly just do what I did and hit "ignore member." If not your pretty much just feeding into the troll. Honestly worked great for me!

 

[Allen Conway]

No satire! $2400 for all those visits is a bargain, and an insult by Disney to someone like me who lives too far away to make weekend or multiple visits. I pay a number approaching that for one trip. You're paying something like $25 a day to go to the park? I pay ~$80. YES, I wish they would jack up the prices of APs, therefore cutting their number, so that the park wouldn't be quite so crowded when I get to go.

It's more complex than this - tickets aren't the only revenue for WDW as pointed out previously. The folks that live nearby are pouring money into the parks in a variety of ways.

Anyway, living in proximity to a location isn't something unique to WDW. I live in Florida but also enjoy say skiing out west in the Rocky mountains. A season pass for a local in CO who can drive up to the mountain on a Saturday is going to be a lot cheaper per day than someone like me from Florida that has to fly out, get a hotel, get transportation, and buy single day lift tickets for the whole family. I can't really complain about that fact. Those with passes will be on the slopes a bunch, buying new ski equipment more often, eating at the lodge, staying at the lodge, and pouring money into the resort on a more routine basis than someone like me that comes from FL.

Technically, I always have the option to move to CO, just as anyone that wants can move to Florida The point is, it's not a 'fairness' issue; jokes on the locals who get addicted to WDW and spend a slow steady stream of money there. It's just a teaser to discount APs and then get money in other avenues. Cell phone companies are similar too - discount up front cost to get that monthly fee where they really make their money.

 

[Allen Conway]

When I say a recession will change things is I mean Disney will discount heavily and won't raise prices as much or as high because people don't have the money.

Yep agree. Remember 06'-09' when it was Disney's "Year of a Million Dreams?" The crowds were down and economy was rough, but Disney upped the incentives. I remember they would give you the choice of a free single day ticket to a park, or a gift card for the value of the single day ticket (if you already had a paid admission). I remember going on my birthday and getting a gift card for about $90

I'm glad the economy is better for all of us, and it is a double edge sword to have these perks. It means something else is going on badly in our economy and not good news overall.

 

[DBDiz]

Speaking second hand, I have cousins in FL that used to buy passes (I assume the in-state resident passes), but had to buy AP's this year due to the pass changes. As such, they were subject to blackout dates for the first time, for the majority of the summer. So it's entirely plausible that many in-state guests disappeared this summer because their new pass structure physically limited them from going.

While my cousins may purchase higher level passes next year to avoid black out dates, that's not to say every pass holder will do so.

 

[Madonna3]

No satire! $2400 for all those visits is a bargain, and an insult by Disney to someone like me who lives too far away to make weekend or multiple visits. I pay a number approaching that for one trip. You're paying something like $25 a day to go to the park? I pay ~$80. YES, I wish they would jack up the prices of APs, therefore cutting their number, so that the park wouldn't be quite so crowded when I get to go.

Sounds like a lot of whining to me. So you pay $80/day for 5 days and I pay $25/day for about 45 days. That's $400 compared to my $1125. I also spend more on hotels. I spend more on meals. I may or may not spend more on merch cause I don't always buy stuff when I go and you probably do. If you wanna go more often, get a better job or move closer. However, my status as an AP holder does absolutely nothing to ruin or cheapen YOUR experience.