Is this math problem 3rd grade appropriate?

[castleview]

. I thought that's why IEPs were implemented, to let teachers and parents and administrators come up with plans to help kids who "fall through the cracks" learn what they need to.

IEPs are generally for special needs students. Either way, why would you create a system that would require so many students get IEPs. See Jody's link

"Every year in the United States, nearly 60% of first-year college students discover that, despite being fully eligible to attend college, they are not ready for postsecondary studies."

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml

So many college students shouldn't be in college. But the same people pushing common core are the people who wanted everyone on a college path.

Again, this is specific to your district...not CC. My kids do none of that. But that is because your district is afraid your students will fail and they spend their day teaching to the test. This was a problem with districts struggling 10 years ago when I was sill teaching. Testing does not enhance the curriculum, that is your administrators POV not every administrators.

Can I ask, have you spoken out at a board meeting on this problem? You have been given examples of now two districts who do not buy magic bullet curriculum in a box programs, but actually write their own based on the ability and needs of their students. It would be beneficial if you spoke about doing this in your district. It will take a couple of years, but you could have a new math curriculum implemented and then move to ELA. Help your district see how they are failing the students by implementing the standards in this way.

I will say these threads scare me for our children's future. Not because I think CC is a problem, but CC brought to light the sad, sad state of the American Education system. Students are so far behind that reasonable K standards are things that were not introduced until 6th grade in some districts. Teachers cannot teach because they themselves are lacking the knowledge/skills and our administrators do not know what tools their students need and think that buying and implementing a curriculum without any changes to meet their specific students works

**My last paragraph is not talking about all students, all teachers or all administrators.....but based on the threads and blog post it appears to be a large chunk of our nation.

OMG yes. I've been to plenty of meetings. But I disagree that CC is bringing to light the "sad state of our education system". That's exactly what slimy corporate reformers - the same ones that only test scores to evaluate teachers - want you to believe. Please don't fall for that. CC is just a boon for private curriculum writers and testing software companies.

A few friends of mine our professors at several different colleges, and they tell me all the time how the kids are not ready for their work. One friend teaches English and the students can't even do a basic outline for an essay.

I'm back in school now and can attest to that. But as I stated above, that will happen if you attempt to prepare kids for college when they would be better off going into a trade.

There's no guarantee at all that Common Core will fix any of that. In fact, it may make it much worse, as Dr. Milgrim points out.

That 60 percent would need help doesn't surprise me as these kids are victims of NCLB and Everyday Math and the like. Also, more and more kids are being forced on a college track who 20 years ago would have done something more trade orientated that they were better suited for.

The numbers are so hard to compare to when I was growing up, because far fewer went to college. Most the kids in our neighborhood are going to U-M and MSU, and they don't need any remedial help.

But what if we start graduating far less people from high school? That is where I fear Common Core is leading many children who aren't highly auditory.

Bill Gates said it will take a decade to see the results of CC. That's nice, but my child's schooling will take place during that decade, so no thanks.

This is getting WAY off topic, but this is my biggest beef with the K-12 education system as it stands now. Not everybody can go to college. Not everybody SHOULD go to college. Apprenticeship is something I think should be seriously considered.

See my above comments. What's sad is that schools are taking the blame for that when just about every teacher and administrator I know is against putting all kids on the same path.

There's also no guarantee CC won't help. YOU pointed out most kids went to college before CC (implying things were fine), FlightlessDuck simply pointed while they went to college, the majority weren't prepared for it.

Have you gone to a school board meeting to express your concerns?

If you are speaking to me, yes I bug the school board. We did have a problem a few years ago when they saw their job as simply rubber stamping what the superintendent said. But that has improved a little. As for whether CC will work, my kid shouldn't be the guinea pig. He's already dealt with teaching tactics (forced upon the teachers) that I think have hurt him.

I have to be missing something because there is not only nothing wrong with the problem but it isn't related to CC in the slightest. I would have seen this exact same word problem in the 80's when I was in 3rd grade and that was long before CC or NCLB.

If the student didn't know what domestically means they just ask their parent or the teacher and then do the math problem once they know the vocabulary. It is simple subtraction. The point of word problems is to force the student to apply mathematical concepts to real world scenarios and I had a lot of word problems in school.

OP, are you implying that word problems are somehow new to CC because they are not. I remember doing word problems while learning relational operators (<, >, =) in 2nd grade so doing them in 3rd grade is also not something introduced by CC. It seems like CC is now used as the reason why parents or teachers don't like any aspect of curriculum even when CC has nothing to do with it.



It depends on your district. I graduated HS from the same district as my dad and both in the 60's when he graduated and the 90's when I graduated there were both college tracks and vocational tracks and the district still has both today. The vocational choices have changed over time (and it is called something different then vocational) but has not gone away. You can still take your core high school classes like math and English and then go off to class to become a carpenter or auto mechanic all in the same school district. There are also some vocational tracks that meld the two, like medical assisting and programming, where you will likely be going on to college but are getting a better base in your high school years for your future degree then the standard curriculum would offer.

You probably had a much better background before you did that problem. You probably also were taught from a build up theory…which is math as far as I'm concerned. The curriculums he has used are top down and sometimes sideways.

Have you thought about math tutoring programs to help him get the basics you feel he's missing?

Yes. We are still trying to pinpoint exactly what the issue is though. He obviously gets it in the end, but why is he shutting down? I've thought long and hard, and I'm still not sure. I know they are so hung up on writing out the steps that he feels he can ONLY do it that way, even if there is a simpler method.

 

[castleview]

It is math - the ability to memorize and apply formulas and fixed facts is at the heart of the subject. And the ability to articulate why those formulas and facts work is only part of the world beyond K-12 education if you define "the world beyond" as "four-year university". My husband is a building contractor - math is part of his most basic job duties, but he never has to explain why he chose the formula he did to calculate the amount of material he needs, or explain the steps in his reasoning. The ability to do it is enough. I've worked in IT, hold two associate degrees and am working on my bachelors, I manage a household and the office side of my husband's business... at no time have I ever needed to explain a math problem in paragraph form. Proofs in college algebra are the closest example I can think of outside of K-12 education, and that is specific to a particular educational and career path.

QUOTE]

He would if he had a customer who didn't agree with the amount of materials he was billing for. He would then have to show his work to convince the customer that what he was billing for was indeed accurate. I am pretty sure that most people do not accept because I said so as an answer when spending thousands of dollars.

And to answer a pp...our HS does offer "shop" type classes and tracks as well and they are a top ranking HS in the nation. So it is not just college tracks.

Are you in a wealthy district? I'm asking because they are doing the best to fend off the "you'll be punished if the test scores go down" rule. Other school systems feel very threatened with lack of funding if what the state wants isn't implemented. Believe me, I want a superintendent who will stand up to the state. But even the bravest have to tread lightly. As I've said - CT is normally a high performing state (probably still is), but the state has been infiltrated with advocacy groups funded by hedge fund managers.

 

[sam_gordon]

IEPs are generally for special needs students. Either way, why would you create a system that would require so many students get IEPs. See Jody's link

My three kids ALL have had IEPs to cover speech issues. They are FAR from special needs. My point is you can't build standards OR curriculum that works for 100% of the students. So you work for the majority, then handle the remainder on a case-by-case basis, hence the IEPs.

So many college students shouldn't be in college. But the same people pushing common core are the people who wanted everyone on a college path.

But you can't point to the kids who are in college (or went to college) and are "unprepared" and say CC is a failure. CC has only been out for 2 years now, and only in a handful of states.

I think parents (general) have been looking for a "magic bullet" for education for decades. What has rolled out hasn't worked quick enough, so lets scrap it and go to the next plan.

I understand your point about not wanting our kids to be guinea pigs and agree to a certain extent. But will the public be willing to wait 12 years (assuming you roll out a curriculum for 1st graders and keep it going until they graduate HS) to see if the plan works?

From what I've read on here, and experienced, I also believe the problems many have with CC is how their state/district/school/teacher is being implemented/taught, NOT the standards themselves.

 

[castleview]

My three kids ALL have had IEPs to cover speech issues. They are FAR from special needs. My point is you can't build standards OR curriculum that works for 100% of the students. So you work for the majority, then handle the remainder on a case-by-case basis, hence the IEPs.


But you can't point to the kids who are in college (or went to college) and are "unprepared" and say CC is a failure. CC has only been out for 2 years now, and only in a handful of states.

I think parents (general) have been looking for a "magic bullet" for education for decades. What has rolled out hasn't worked quick enough, so lets scrap it and go to the next plan.

I understand your point about not wanting our kids to be guinea pigs and agree to a certain extent. But will the public be willing to wait 12 years (assuming you roll out a curriculum for 1st graders and keep it going until they graduate HS) to see if the plan works?

From what I've read on here, and experienced, I also believe the problems many have with CC is how their state/district/school/teacher is being implemented/taught, NOT the standards themselves.

It's the same mentality. CC may be needed in some states, but over the past 15-20 years, we've seen this push to make public schools look like they were failing. I don't believe they were. Our own state test considers a B- failing.

 

[luv2sleep]

I've researched the common core standards a great deal. For math it's pretty abstract. However, I don't have a problem with that. As someone who has a doctorate I can see where abstract ways of approaching things early on can be helpful. It should, in the long run, have students handling problems more rapidly than before. Again my kid is only in first but I can still see it's merits.

 

[castleview]

I've researched the common core standards a great deal. For math it's pretty abstract. However, I don't have a problem with that. As someone who has a doctorate I can see where abstract ways of approaching things early on can be helpful. It should, in the long run, have students handling problems more rapidly than before. Again my kid is only in first but I can still see it's merits.

I guess that's where I'm old school. I think you need balance with concrete.

 

[sam_gordon]

It's the same mentality. CC may be needed in some states, but over the past 15-20 years, we've seen this push to make public schools look like they were failing. I don't believe they were. Our own state test considers a B- failing.

IMO, the goal of CC is a good one... make sure the majority of students (because again, you're not going to get 100%) across the country learn the same skills at the same time. Does it make sense for a school in Mississippi to teach long division (for example) in third grade, but a school in Minnesota doesn't cover it until fifth? Won't the kids from Minnesota be "behind" when it comes to all the concepts that follow long division?

Of course, it's easy to say teachers should go at the speed of the kids, which sounds like it makes sense, but if you "slow things down", are you helping or hurting?

And yes, there are going to be exceptions. You can't come up with a single plan that will suit all kids all the time.

ETA: If your state says a B- is failing, that's a problem with your state.

 

[castleview]

IMO, the goal of CC is a good one... make sure the majority of students (because again, you're not going to get 100%) across the country learn the same skills at the same time. Does it make sense for a school in Mississippi to teach long division (for example) in third grade, but a school in Minnesota doesn't cover it until fifth? Won't the kids from Minnesota be "behind" when it comes to all the concepts that follow long division?

Of course, it's easy to say teachers should go at the speed of the kids, which sounds like it makes sense, but if you "slow things down", are you helping or hurting?

And yes, there are going to be exceptions. You can't come up with a single plan that will suit all kids all the time.

ETA: If your state says a B- is failing, that's a problem with your state.

I never said to slow things down. But I am in need of my son catching up and catching on (sorry to end with a preposition). I'm still iffy on the nationalized education plan…at least with high stakes testing attached to it. Honestly, the only result I've seen is that good schools have had to downgrade in order to be on a level playing field.

 

[luv2sleep]

I guess that's where I'm old school. I think you need balance with concrete.

I can only go by personal experience. As I got into subjects that required more abstract thinking like physics and advanced math I struggled in comparison to some of my peers. More prep in the abstract when I was younger would have helped. It even affected me in medical school where some physiology required the application of physics concepts. Same went for statistics.

In terms of language arts I feel my education didn't prepare me adequately for college level composition courses. My comprehension was adequate but my ability to form complex sentences well was lacking at first. I had to catch up. I was educated in 2 of the top 3 school districts in my state. I went to a top tier college. So based on my experience I can see how CC will benefit and advance our kids as a whole. The basics are going to have to be taught by me or a tutor from what I can see.

This is a great discussion. My kid struggles too. I'm glad to see we aren't the only ones dealing with this. I've had to start tutoring him on my own for math (I purchase inexpensive items from teacher sites) and he goes to Kumon for reading. It's all working out so far and he's keeping up.

 

[Colleen27]

Also, more and more kids are being forced on a college track who 20 years ago would have done something more trade orientated that they were better suited for.

And that's where I think the issue with remedial college courses comes in - we're pushing kids on to college that simply aren't suited for it. Parents, educators, administrators, and society as a whole discourage and deride other educational or job training options as inferior to a four-year university education, and they do so without regard for the individual child's abilities and interests. My son is only a freshman and I'm already seeing it in our high school culture - he talked to his counselor about his career plan (which involves a voc-ed magnet program in a high-demand skilled trade) and his counselor's first response was to advise him to take a standard college-prep path "to keep his options open". This to a kid who has struggled academically since day one, who learns best in a hands-on fashion, and who has a practical, in demand, lucrative career in mind...

The tech program he's interested in is in jeopardy because with this advice being handed out county-wide and earning a diploma now requiring the same course load semi-selective colleges expect from applicants, fewer and fewer students are taking advantage of the program. Fitting in the graduation requirements and the tech classes is difficult and needs to be planned for starting in 8th grade if possible, 9th at the very latest, but school staff are ridiculously reluctant to help students with that planning. They'd rather see them go on to college, even if it means taking the same program at college prices when it could have been accomplished as part of their high school experience.

 

[nugov2]

Are you in a wealthy district? I'm asking because they are doing the best to fend off the "you'll be punished if the test scores go down" rule. Other school systems feel very threatened with lack of funding if what the state wants isn't implemented. Believe me, I want a superintendent who will stand up to the state. But even the bravest have to tread lightly. As I've said - CT is normally a high performing state (probably still is), but the state has been infiltrated with advocacy groups funded by hedge fund managers.

We are a upper middle class area. We rank in the top 20% as an elementary school district in the nation and in our state we rank almost at the bottom in terms of spending.... only 9 schools in our state spend less money per pupil than our district does. So money has little to do with it. We also do not rely on state funding. They cannot hold something over our head that we do not need. Our district operates without planning for state funds when it comes to the budget.

 

[castleview]

We are a upper middle class area. We rank in the top 20% as an elementary school district in the nation and in our state we rank almost at the bottom in terms of spending.... only 9 schools in our state spend less money per pupil than our district does. So money has little to do with it. We also do not rely on state funding. They cannot hold something over our head that we do not need. Our district operates without planning for state funds when it comes to the budget.

Therein lies the difference between most school systems. I don't know where you are, but I do hope you can nip in the bud any "reform" organization sneaking into your state. They started with the urban schools and are trying to work their way up. I know many of the wealthier districts will tell them where to go, but a lot of damage can get done in that time.

 

[Colleen27]

[
He would if he had a customer who didn't agree with the amount of materials he was billing for. He would then have to show his work to convince the customer that what he was billing for was indeed accurate. I am pretty sure that most people do not accept because I said so as an answer when spending thousands of dollars.

And to answer a pp...our HS does offer "shop" type classes and tracks as well and they are a top ranking HS in the nation. So it is not just college tracks.

Actually, competing quotes rather than abstract math lessons tends to be the means of consumer verification of the reasonability of a proposal. Certainly he can, will, and has explained how he measures for roofing and siding but it is from a very pragmatic point of view. He isn't using the proper names for theorems and mathematical properties.

I'm in a fairly rural blue-collar area, and our schools haven't offered shop in years. The required sequence dictates 19 of 24 high school credits, so many electives and technical courses that don't advance the requirements are going away for lack of demand.

A lot of young people here are interested in the skilled trades as an alternative to university. They have parents, grandparents, neighbors, and friends who work in the trades, and they see that general labor is a lousy path but skilled positions earn a decent living. For the most part, families in our community are in that working class gap where they make too much for significant need-based aid but too little to fund college without big loans, so college isn't the taken-for-granted next step that it is in more affluent areas. Non-college training options have immense value to those students who aren't sure enough about their interest in or readiness for post-secondary education to go into debt to try it out, but more and more they're a casualty of a "college readiness" approach to education as a whole.

 

[luv2sleep]

OP have you looked into IXL? I just reviewed it and signed up. Looks great!

http://www.ixl.com/math/grade-3

 

[NHdisneylover]

I can only go by personal experience. As I got into subjects that required more abstract thinking like physics and advanced math I struggled in comparison to some of my peers. More prep in the abstract when I was younger would have helped. It even affected me in medical school where some physiology required the application of physics concepts. Same went for statistics.

In terms of language arts I feel my education didn't prepare me adequately for college level composition courses. My comprehension was adequate but my ability to form complex sentences well was lacking at first. I had to catch up. I was educated in 2 of the top 3 school districts in my state. I went to a top tier college. So based on my experience I can see how CC will benefit and advance our kids as a whole. The basics are going to have to be taught by me or a tutor from what I can see.

This is a great discussion. My kid struggles too. I'm glad to see we aren't the only ones dealing with this. I've had to start tutoring him on my own for math (I purchase inexpensive items from teacher sites) and he goes to Kumon for reading. It's all working out so far and he's keeping up.

This is one problem I see with the way schools are heading in the US. The need for help at home and tutors for some kids has always been there, but it seems to be increasing at a drastic rate. Which means that kids from families who cannot afford tutors and/or whose parents are unable to help with school work (either because this is material they never covered, or they are not fluent in English to understand it, or they work long hours and are not always home at night to help the child, etc) are at a HUGE disadvantage over those from higher income families or better educated families, or with parents who are fluent in the language, etc.

Interestingly, when Finland (consistently tests at the very top internationally) reformed their school system in the 70s, they were not trying to be the best. What they were trying to do (and did do) was make sure that ALL kids had equally good educations and equally good chances at success. Being unable to afford a tutor, or not having parents who understood your school work and could help was intentionally made to not be a hindrance (the very minimal amount of homework given is one way this happens). Seems to have worked out really well for them.

And that's where I think the issue with remedial college courses comes in - we're pushing kids on to college that simply aren't suited for it. Parents, educators, administrators, and society as a whole discourage and deride other educational or job training options as inferior to a four-year university education, and they do so without regard for the individual child's abilities and interests. My son is only a freshman and I'm already seeing it in our high school culture - he talked to his counselor about his career plan (which involves a voc-ed magnet program in a high-demand skilled trade) and his counselor's first response was to advise him to take a standard college-prep path "to keep his options open". This to a kid who has struggled academically since day one, who learns best in a hands-on fashion, and who has a practical, in demand, lucrative career in mind...

The tech program he's interested in is in jeopardy because with this advice being handed out county-wide and earning a diploma now requiring the same course load semi-selective colleges expect from applicants, fewer and fewer students are taking advantage of the program. Fitting in the graduation requirements and the tech classes is difficult and needs to be planned for starting in 8th grade if possible, 9th at the very latest, but school staff are ridiculously reluctant to help students with that planning. They'd rather see them go on to college, even if it means taking the same program at college prices when it could have been accomplished as part of their high school experience.

I fully agree that the push to have EVERY kid go to college is very detrimental.

I think it hurts the kids who really are college material--by bogging down their classes with needing to try to get the point across to a lot of kids who should not be there and don't want to be there, and by having pushed the need for higher ed to be a Masters or PhD to even stand out anymore.

And, of course, it hurts the kids who would be much better served by being given a different less book and lecture oriented education, and instead be given hands on skills in a trade (not to mention, fewer places will higher the kids who DO gain the skills, without a college degree, even though the degree may have nothing to do with the job, simply because we have all been trained to think of it as a minimum things now.

It even hurts our society and economy as a whole as we graduate hoards of people with useless degrees in areas they can manage but are not really good at (when they could be really good at a skilled labor position) and loads of debt to have paid for that degree.

I really wish attitudes about university would change and we could start valuing having a strongly skilled and VARIED workforce, where we build on individual strengths to create great workers and thinkers in a much broader range of ways.

 

[FireDancer]

You probably had a much better background before you did that problem. You probably also were taught from a build up theory…which is math as far as I'm concerned. The curriculums he has used are top down and sometimes sideways.

That is irrelevant to the question. The question was "Is this math problem 3rd grade appropriate" which I believe it is. It is simple subtraction in word problem form and in 3rd grade a student should be able to both do simple subtraction of two 2-digit numbers and be able to determine from that sentence what number needs to be subtracted from what number. The only thing that "might" make the problem difficult is the meaning of domestic but unless students are not allowed to ask questions in class or of their parents a simple "what does this mean" would make that question not only appropriate but pretty easy.

If the student can't do that the issue isn't with the problem posted, it is with the curriculum but that isn't what was asked.

 

[castleview]

That is irrelevant to the question. The question was "Is this math problem 3rd grade appropriate" which I believe it is. It is simple subtraction in word problem form and in 3rd grade a student should be able to both do simple subtraction of two 2-digit numbers and be able to determine from that sentence what number needs to be subtracted from what number. The only thing that "might" make the problem difficult is the meaning of domestic but unless students are not allowed to ask questions in class or of their parents a simple "what does this mean" would make that question not only appropriate but pretty easy.

If the student can't do that the issue isn't with the problem posted, it is with the curriculum but that isn't what was asked.

Yes, it would be great if it were that simple. You're missing the point that the kids have been overburdened with future concepts so that a basic foundation wasn't there. Do I have a problem algebra concepts being taught in third grade? No. But I have a problem with it if you didn't firm up addition and subtraction.

This is one problem I see with the way schools are heading in the US. The need for help at home and tutors for some kids has always been there, but it seems to be increasing at a drastic rate. Which means that kids from families who cannot afford tutors and/or whose parents are unable to help with school work (either because this is material they never covered, or they are not fluent in English to understand it, or they work long hours and are not always home at night to help the child, etc) are at a HUGE disadvantage over those from higher income families or better educated families, or with parents who are fluent in the language, etc.

Interestingly, when Finland (consistently tests at the very top internationally) reformed their school system in the 70s, they were not trying to be the best. What they were trying to do (and did do) was make sure that ALL kids had equally good educations and equally good chances at success. Being unable to afford a tutor, or not having parents who understood your school work and could help was intentionally made to not be a hindrance (the very minimal amount of homework given is one way this happens). Seems to have worked out really well for them.



I fully agree that the push to have EVERY kid go to college is very detrimental.

I think it hurts the kids who really are college material--by bogging down their classes with needing to try to get the point across to a lot of kids who should not be there and don't want to be there, and by having pushed the need for higher ed to be a Masters or PhD to even stand out anymore.

And, of course, it hurts the kids who would be much better served by being given a different less book and lecture oriented education, and instead be given hands on skills in a trade (not to mention, fewer places will higher the kids who DO gain the skills, without a college degree, even though the degree may have nothing to do with the job, simply because we have all been trained to think of it as a minimum things now.

It even hurts our society and economy as a whole as we graduate hoards of people with useless degrees in areas they can manage but are not really good at (when they could be really good at a skilled labor position) and loads of debt to have paid for that degree.

I really wish attitudes about university would change and we could start valuing having a strongly skilled and VARIED workforce, where we build on individual strengths to create great workers and thinkers in a much broader range of ways.

I agree with a lot of this, but some very good educated parents just hit a wall when it comes to teaching their own kids…or at least one of their own kids.

 

[sam_gordon]

Yes, it would be great if it were that simple. You're missing the point that the kids have been overburdened with future concepts so that a basic foundation wasn't there. Do I have a problem algebra concepts being taught in third grade? No. But I have a problem with it if you didn't firm up addition and subtraction.

But of course, you also blamed this on CC. Your child has been in school for two years before this, and unless you live in Kentucky, hasn't been exposed to CC until either last year (NY?) or this year. So CC isn't to blame for not being taught the "foundation".

 

[castleview]

But of course, you also blamed this on CC. Your child has been in school for two years before this, and unless you live in Kentucky, hasn't been exposed to CC until either last year (NY?) or this year. So CC isn't to blame for not being taught the "foundation".

CC is just the latest being pushed by people who have no place in education. I've mentioned that many times. They are the same people that support high stakes testing and supported NCLB. So yes, I group them together.

If you want to keep telling me I suck as a parent and I'm wrong, go ahead. But to attack me for questioning how certain curriculums get into schools without any teacher input/opinion isn't productive.

 

[sam_gordon]

CC is just the latest being pushed by people who have no place in education. I've mentioned that many times. They are the same people that support high stakes testing and supported NCLB. So yes, I group them together.

If you want to keep telling me I suck as a parent and I'm wrong, go ahead. But to attack me for questioning how certain curriculums get into schools without any teacher input/opinion isn't productive.

I never tried to say you suck as a parent and if I gave you (or anyone) that idea, I apologize.

I don't remember you questioning how these curriculums got into schools. I remember you insulting those who made the decisions, and in the OP even said whoever wrote CC "should be put to sleep". If those count as "productive" posts, I don't know what to say.