Is this math problem 3rd grade appropriate?

[castleview]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you want critical thinking, but not multiple step problems, mental math, or challenging vocabulary that you have to use context clues to figure out?

I never said that. My problem has been that my kid is being thrown problems like this sporadically when he doesn't have the proper foundation and teachers are not allowed to use techniques that work well.

 

[castleview]

I agree on all accounts.



As a Special Education teacher, I can tell you that I hate all the standardized testing. It rarely shows the progress my students have worked so hard to achieve. But, this problem was around LONG before the Common Core came into existence. I've been seeing my students beaten down by the MCAS since it first came out in 1998? I believe.

IMO - the big problem isn't really the standards. MA has had similar (higher in many cases) standards for many years and when implemented well, the overwhelming majority of students can achieve them. The problems are what is being done when someone can't achieve them: children are made to feel stupid, teacher's jobs/ pay are on the line, schools can be taken over by the state, parents are frustrated etc... To me, the standards are not the problem, it's the high stakes involved in trying to get everyone to achieve them.

Bingo. There's no reason for my kids to have to take weekly vitals, pre-tests, and then spend the entire month of March prepping for the tests. What's really annoying is the administrators who try to convince me that testing enhances the curriculum.

 

[luv2sleep]

OP my son is I first grade and gets similar single digit word problems. By third he would be able to solve this two digit subtraction problem. I'm new to school as he's only in 1st. I'm familiar with CC standards and understand what's expected of my son for 1st and second grade. I don't have any other math teaching curriculum to compare things too. I do not remember how I was taught math so this CC stuff is all I know. So how do YOU think your 3rd grader should be asked to learn 2 digit subtraction? Since you don't like how this problem was presented, what way would you want him to learn the concept that is being presented in the posted problem? I ask to try to understand he concerns parents are having with this. I'm a literal person. I know the history behind the development of the CC standards but I'm not familiar with what ways kids were taught before vs how they are being asked to learn these concepts now.

 

[sam_gordon]

70 to 95 percent of kids taking the tests on these Common Core standards failed in the only two states that actually tested kids on the standards. How can that remotely be considered successful?

I've asked before and never got an answer... which test results show the "true" knowledge of students... the results where 95% "passes" or the results where 95% "fail"? Just because a high number of students fail doesn't mean the tests are bad.

I also mentioned this in a previous thread... one of DS's soccer teams is undefeated (6-0-1) in league play. They have outscored their opponents 22-12. Sounds pretty good, right? They've played five games in two tournaments, lost all 5 by I think ~30 goals total. Now, should they be considered "successful"? Which standard (league play or tournament) is a more realistic statement on their skills?

ETA: Added thought... yes, there will be kids who don't "mesh" with CC. But it would be impossible to come up with standards or curriculum that works with 100% of students. I thought that's why IEPs were implemented, to let teachers and parents and administrators come up with plans to help kids who "fall through the cracks" learn what they need to.

 

[castleview]

OP my son is I first grade and gets similar single digit word problems. By third he would be able to solve this two digit subtraction problem. I'm new to school as he's only in 1st. I'm familiar with CC standards and understand what's expected of my son for 1st and second grade. I don't have any other math teaching curriculum to compare things too. I do not remember how I was taught math so this CC stuff is all I know. So how do YOU think your 3rd grader should be asked to learn 2 digit subtraction? Since you don't like how this problem was presented, what way would you want him to learn the concept that is being presented in the posted problem? I ask to try to understand he concerns parents are having with this. I'm a literal person. I know the history behind the development of the CC standards but I'm not familiar with what ways kids were taught before vs how they are being asked to learn these concepts now.

Basically line up one number on top of the other. I don't think they were given enough time to master that. They also had several boxes for the kids to fill in so they could figure out what the numbers would be when they were borrowing. I didn't care for that method. Rather than just taking one away from the number, they had to write out a step to get there. When dealing with bigger problems, I could understand writing out the step so the teacher can see where a kid was messing up. But anyone can easily see where the child is messing up when doing simple two digit math problems. Overall, the past few curriculums were very heavy on estimating. While estimating definitely has its place, basics are more important in my opinion.

While only knowing the way your child is being taught has its benefits, I know that a lot of methods simply don't work. I'm also from a family of teachers who would be rich if you gave them a dollar for every time they were told to teach something they already knew how to teach in a different manner. Ex: My stepmom taught when whole language came into play. She didn't let it dominate her lessons and still "snuck in" phonics because she knew her students spelling would be atrocious if she didn't.

As for my son's learning style, he's definitely not auditory. His teachers have told me that he does well, but he doesn't move on to one question until he solves the last one…even if it's something he's never done before. Hence, his horrific bench mark scores. They've never picked him up for intervention because he gets it by the end of the chapter. My thing is he needs to get things smoother and it needs to be less frustrating because it's only going to get more complicated.

 

[jodifla]

I've asked before and never got an answer... which test results show the "true" knowledge of students... the results where 95% "passes" or the results where 95% "fail"? Just because a high number of students fail doesn't mean the tests are bad.

I also mentioned this in a previous thread... one of DS's soccer teams is undefeated (6-0-1) in league play. They have outscored their opponents 22-12. Sounds pretty good, right? They've played five games in two tournaments, lost all 5 by I think ~30 goals total. Now, should they be considered "successful"? Which standard (league play or tournament) is a more realistic statement on their skills?

ETA: Added thought... yes, there will be kids who don't "mesh" with CC. But it would be impossible to come up with standards or curriculum that works with 100% of students. I thought that's why IEPs were implemented, to let teachers and parents and administrators come up with plans to help kids who "fall through the cracks" learn what they need to.

Most kids from our high schools graduate, go on to college, and have jobs. So all of a sudden, all these kids are too dumb to go to college?

Common Core curriculums are made up and have no scientific backing behind them to show that they will work. The only math professor on the review team refused to sign off on the Common Core because he said it is based on a failed Russian K-12 experiment that was abandoned, and yet that is what we are blindly throwing our children into. In fact, he said the CC curriculum ends up not covering enough material for kids to do well in college. Instead they just yakkety yak about math instead of actually learning the facts of math.

A look at the other 4th grade math problem on this board shows the inanity of Common Core math. Particularly where teachers talk about having two Common Core coaches who told them exact OPPOSITE things about how and what they should be teaching.

Ten years ago, we thought it was a good idea to leave no child behind. Now, however, we are fine with leaving many, many children behind.


http://dianeravitch.net/2013/09/11/james-milgram-on-the-common-core-math-standards/

James Milgram is a professor emeritus of mathematics at
Stanford University. He served on the validation committee for the
Common Core mathematics. He did not agree to approve the standards.
He sent me the following letter. He has spoken out against the
standards in various states.


"Dear Diane, In
your own writings you mention that the biggest issue with Core
Standards is the lack of evidence. This is largely true. But at
least in math there is significant international evidence that
major parts of the standards will not work. For example, the only
area we could find that has had success with CCSS-M's method of
treating geometry is in Flemish Belgium. But it was tried on a
national scale in Russia a number of years back, and was rapidly
dropped. ..."

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Actually, I would argue it's a badly worded problem because even though the question writer wants you to subtract, I would answer 89.

Why?

Because all 89 letters were sent within the United States ("domestically"). 54 of them were received outside the United States and 35 within the United States.

The question should be rewritten:

"The U.S. Postal Service sends out 89 letters, 54 of which are to foreign countries. How many are received domestically?"

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Most kids from our high schools graduate, go on to college, and have jobs. So all of a sudden, all these kids are too dumb to go to college?

"Every year in the United States, nearly 60% of first-year college students discover that, despite being fully eligible to attend college, they are not ready for postsecondary studies."

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I don't think any kid knows what a letter is these days.

THIS is the other problem. The question isn't relevant.

"The U.S. Postal Service sends out 89 Amazon.com packages, 54 of which are to foreign countries. How many are received domestically?"

 

[nugov2]

[/B]

Bingo. There's no reason for my kids to have to take weekly vitals, pre-tests, and then spend the entire month of March prepping for the tests. What's really annoying is the administrators who try to convince me that testing enhances the curriculum.

Again, this is specific to your district...not CC. My kids do none of that. But that is because your district is afraid your students will fail and they spend their day teaching to the test. This was a problem with districts struggling 10 years ago when I was sill teaching. Testing does not enhance the curriculum, that is your administrators POV not every administrators.

Can I ask, have you spoken out at a board meeting on this problem? You have been given examples of now two districts who do not buy magic bullet curriculum in a box programs, but actually write their own based on the ability and needs of their students. It would be beneficial if you spoke about doing this in your district. It will take a couple of years, but you could have a new math curriculum implemented and then move to ELA. Help your district see how they are failing the students by implementing the standards in this way.

I will say these threads scare me for our children's future. Not because I think CC is a problem, but CC brought to light the sad, sad state of the American Education system. Students are so far behind that reasonable K standards are things that were not introduced until 6th grade in some districts. Teachers cannot teach because they themselves are lacking the knowledge/skills and our administrators do not know what tools their students need and think that buying and implementing a curriculum without any changes to meet their specific students works

**My last paragraph is not talking about all students, all teachers or all administrators.....but based on the threads and blog post it appears to be a large chunk of our nation.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

"Every year in the United States, nearly 60% of first-year college students discover that, despite being fully eligible to attend college, they are not ready for postsecondary studies."

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml

A few friends of mine our professors at several different colleges, and they tell me all the time how the kids are not ready for their work. One friend teaches English and the students can't even do a basic outline for an essay.

 

[jodifla]

"Every year in the United States, nearly 60% of first-year college students discover that, despite being fully eligible to attend college, they are not ready for postsecondary studies."

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml

There's no guarantee at all that Common Core will fix any of that. In fact, it may make it much worse, as Dr. Milgrim points out.

That 60 percent would need help doesn't surprise me as these kids are victims of NCLB and Everyday Math and the like. Also, more and more kids are being forced on a college track who 20 years ago would have done something more trade orientated that they were better suited for.

The numbers are so hard to compare to when I was growing up, because far fewer went to college. Most the kids in our neighborhood are going to U-M and MSU, and they don't need any remedial help.

But what if we start graduating far less people from high school? That is where I fear Common Core is leading many children who aren't highly auditory.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Also, more and more kids are being forced on a college track who 20 years ago would have done something more trade orientated that they were better suited for.

This is getting WAY off topic, but this is my biggest beef with the K-12 education system as it stands now. Not everybody can go to college. Not everybody SHOULD go to college. Apprenticeship is something I think should be seriously considered.

 

[sam_gordon]

There's no guarantee at all that Common Core will fix any of that. In fact, it may make it much worse, as Dr. Milgrim points out.

That 60 percent would need help doesn't surprise me as these kids are victims of NCLB and Everyday Math and the like. Also, more and more kids are being forced on a college track who 20 years ago would have done something more trade orientated that they were better suited for.

The numbers are so hard to compare to when I was growing up, because far fewer went to college. Most the kids in our neighborhood are going to U-M and MSU, and they don't need any remedial help.

But what if we start graduating far less people from high school? That is where I fear Common Core is leading many children who aren't highly auditory.

There's also no guarantee CC won't help. YOU pointed out most kids went to college before CC (implying things were fine), FlightlessDuck simply pointed while they went to college, the majority weren't prepared for it.

Have you gone to a school board meeting to express your concerns?

 

[pioneer89]

Most kids from our high schools graduate, go on to college, and have jobs. So all of a sudden, all these kids are too dumb to go to college?

Common Core curriculums are made up and have no scientific backing behind them to show that they will work. The only math professor on the review team refused to sign off on the Common Core because he said it is based on a failed Russian K-12 experiment that was abandoned, and yet that is what we are blindly throwing our children into. In fact, he said the CC curriculum ends up not covering enough material for kids to do well in college. Instead they just yakkety yak about math instead of actually learning the facts of math.

A look at the other 4th grade math problem on this board shows the inanity of Common Core math. Particularly where teachers talk about having two Common Core coaches who told them exact OPPOSITE things about how and what they should be teaching.

Ten years ago, we thought it was a good idea to leave no child behind. Now, however, we are fine with leaving many, many children behind.


http://dianeravitch.net/2013/09/11/james-milgram-on-the-common-core-math-standards/

James Milgram is a professor emeritus of mathematics at
Stanford University. He served on the validation committee for the
Common Core mathematics. He did not agree to approve the standards.
He sent me the following letter. He has spoken out against the
standards in various states.


"Dear Diane, In
your own writings you mention that the biggest issue with Core
Standards is the lack of evidence. This is largely true. But at
least in math there is significant international evidence that
major parts of the standards will not work. For example, the only
area we could find that has had success with CCSS-M's method of
treating geometry is in Flemish Belgium. But it was tried on a
national scale in Russia a number of years back, and was rapidly
dropped. ..."

I read the entire link you supplied. The very next line is:

Likewise, the extremely limited high school level content
is so weak that...

Prof. Milgram objects to the standards because they are too weak to be considered standards for 'college readiness'. I interpret his view to be that we need some form of standard, but it needs to be tougher.

I didn't see any comments about individual state or district curriculum, just standards.


I watched something similar to this in Virginia with our SOLs (Standards of Learning). The SOLs provide reasonably high level of performance for our students, teachers, and parents.

When my kids first entered the school system we heard concern about 'reaching to the test' and such. But after reading the standards, I would never be satisfied if my kids didn't know each item on the SOL. Makes me wonder what kids were learning before SOLs if teaching such basic standards is causing such turmoil.

If someone can point to a specific section they don't think should be required knowledge from the CCS, that's fine. Otherwise we're just talking about individual states and districts failure to teach what should be a base-line minimum.

 

[FireDancer]

The concept is fine, but would a third grader get the vocab?:

"The U.S. Postal Service sends out 89 letters, 54 of which are to foreign countries. How many are sent domestically?"

Please let me know if this would be typical or if it confirms my theory that any author of the Common Core should be put to sleep.

I have to be missing something because there is not only nothing wrong with the problem but it isn't related to CC in the slightest. I would have seen this exact same word problem in the 80's when I was in 3rd grade and that was long before CC or NCLB.

If the student didn't know what domestically means they just ask their parent or the teacher and then do the math problem once they know the vocabulary. It is simple subtraction. The point of word problems is to force the student to apply mathematical concepts to real world scenarios and I had a lot of word problems in school.

OP, are you implying that word problems are somehow new to CC because they are not. I remember doing word problems while learning relational operators (<, >, =) in 2nd grade so doing them in 3rd grade is also not something introduced by CC. It seems like CC is now used as the reason why parents or teachers don't like any aspect of curriculum even when CC has nothing to do with it.

This is getting WAY off topic, but this is my biggest beef with the K-12 education system as it stands now. Not everybody can go to college. Not everybody SHOULD go to college. Apprenticeship is something I think should be seriously considered.

It depends on your district. I graduated HS from the same district as my dad and both in the 60's when he graduated and the 90's when I graduated there were both college tracks and vocational tracks and the district still has both today. The vocational choices have changed over time (and it is called something different then vocational) but has not gone away. You can still take your core high school classes like math and English and then go off to class to become a carpenter or auto mechanic all in the same school district. There are also some vocational tracks that meld the two, like medical assisting and programming, where you will likely be going on to college but are getting a better base in your high school years for your future degree then the standard curriculum would offer.

 

[jodifla]

I read the entire link you supplied. The very next line is:


Prof. Milgram objects to the standards because they are too weak to be considered standards for 'college readiness'. I interpret his view to be that we need some form of standard, but it needs to be tougher.

I didn't see any comments about individual state or district curriculum, just standards.


I watched something similar to this in Virginia with our SOLs (Standards of Learning). The SOLs provide reasonably high level of performance for our students, teachers, and parents.

When my kids first entered the school system we heard concern about 'reaching to the test' and such. But after reading the standards, I would never be satisfied if my kids didn't know each item on the SOL. Makes me wonder what kids were learning before SOLs if teaching such basic standards is causing such turmoil.

If someone can point to a specific section they don't think should be required knowledge from the CCS, that's fine. Otherwise we're just talking about individual states and districts failure to teach what should be a base-line minimum.

Dr. Milgrim's point was that the standards are less rigorous, but still students didn't learn the math effectively. So you have the worst of both worlds. A lot of math IS learning the formulas and being able to work through them.

 

[Colleen27]

To me, requiring students to explain the process is a very important step that was lacking in previous standards. Far too many students in the past could memorize formulas and regurgitate them during an assessment without having any concept of why they were doing it. That isn't comprehension. Being able to articulate one's thought process is not only an effective means of evaluating mastery, but it prepares students for the reality of the world beyond their k-12 education.

It is math - the ability to memorize and apply formulas and fixed facts is at the heart of the subject. And the ability to articulate why those formulas and facts work is only part of the world beyond K-12 education if you define "the world beyond" as "four-year university". My husband is a building contractor - math is part of his most basic job duties, but he never has to explain why he chose the formula he did to calculate the amount of material he needs, or explain the steps in his reasoning. The ability to do it is enough. I've worked in IT, hold two associate degrees and am working on my bachelors, I manage a household and the office side of my husband's business... at no time have I ever needed to explain a math problem in paragraph form. Proofs in college algebra are the closest example I can think of outside of K-12 education, and that is specific to a particular educational and career path.

Many of the requirements of common core stem from the same flawed educational philosophy that has aligned high school graduation requirements with the transcript expected by semi-selective universities, and no one seems to care/mind that it is alienating those students who would have gone into the trades or STEM fields to "escape" the demands of English and the liberal arts disciplines. Nor does anyone seem to want to talk about the fact that "college for everyone" simply isn't rooted in any economic or social reality; there isn't enough demand for college grads to justify it, and it is gutting vocational and technical programs that prepare students for fields that are in high demand.

There are many concepts that I do not expect the schools to have to teach my children. I have no problem with including math facts in that category.

As for the concern about some students not getting this reinforcement at home, I think that, as a nation, we need to stop letting parents off the hook by placing that responsibility on the schools. I think that it is appropriate for schools to help children develop into higher-level thinkers, as that is what the workforce of our future will demand. In order to achieve this, some of the basics that were taken for granted as school-taught will need to be shifted to the home. As a country, we need to do a better job of supporting the parents who struggle, but not by keeping all of the responsibility of learning within school walls. Rather, we need to put in place programs to help parents help their children achieve at a higher level while in school.

ETA: Colleen27, I'm thoroughly enjoying the debate, and I hope you don't take offense to what I've typed. I think this has been a great discourse! I am heading off to bed (need to get up early to teach tomorrow, as usual!).

See, I look at this from the other side - as a nation we resent any expenditure on support for struggling families, so the increasing demand for parents to teach the fundamentals so that schools can focus on flavor-of-the-month approaches to critical thinking and reasoning skills is plainly unreasonable and unlikely to be successful. There's no value in teaching kids to be higher-order thinkers if they lack the basic skills to support their reasoning, but increasingly that's what public education is coming to mean - a lot of nebulous lessons in secondary skills that leave little time for the fundamentals. And for most people, it is the fundamentals that have the greatest relevance in everyday life and the working world.

And don't worry about offending me. I enjoy a spirited discussion and do not take offense easily at all.

Bingo. There's no reason for my kids to have to take weekly vitals, pre-tests, and then spend the entire month of March prepping for the tests. What's really annoying is the administrators who try to convince me that testing enhances the curriculum.

I'm glad that our state at least gets it out of the way in the fall rather than waiting until spring. There are some unintended consequences to that, particularly regarding retention/promotion decisions, but at least by this time of year they're moving on to learning free of the looming specter of state testing. From the start of the year through mid-October is all about the testing, but I think that's less disruptive in the start of the school year, when test prep is basically an extension of the usual back-to-school review, than it would be later in the year.

 

[luv2sleep]

Basically line up one number on top of the other. I don't think they were given enough time to master that. They also had several boxes for the kids to fill in so they could figure out what the numbers would be when they were borrowing. I didn't care for that method. Rather than just taking one away from the number, they had to write out a step to get there. When dealing with bigger problems, I could understand writing out the step so the teacher can see where a kid was messing up. But anyone can easily see where the child is messing up when doing simple two digit math problems. Overall, the past few curriculums were very heavy on estimating. While estimating definitely has its place, basics are more important in my opinion. While only knowing the way your child is being taught has its benefits, I know that a lot of methods simply don't work. I'm also from a family of teachers who would be rich if you gave them a dollar for every time they were told to teach something they already knew how to teach in a different manner. Ex: My stepmom taught when whole language came into play. She didn't let it dominate her lessons and still "snuck in" phonics because she knew her students spelling would be atrocious if she didn't. As for my son's learning style, he's definitely not auditory. His teachers have told me that he does well, but he doesn't move on to one question until he solves the last one&#133;even if it's something he's never done before. Hence, his horrific bench mark scores. They've never picked him up for intervention because he gets it by the end of the chapter. My thing is he needs to get things smoother and it needs to be less frustrating because it's only going to get more complicated.

Have you thought about math tutoring programs to help him get the basics you feel he's missing?

 

[nugov2]

It is math - the ability to memorize and apply formulas and fixed facts is at the heart of the subject. And the ability to articulate why those formulas and facts work is only part of the world beyond K-12 education if you define "the world beyond" as "four-year university". My husband is a building contractor - math is part of his most basic job duties, but he never has to explain why he chose the formula he did to calculate the amount of material he needs, or explain the steps in his reasoning. The ability to do it is enough. I've worked in IT, hold two associate degrees and am working on my bachelors, I manage a household and the office side of my husband's business... at no time have I ever needed to explain a math problem in paragraph form. Proofs in college algebra are the closest example I can think of outside of K-12 education, and that is specific to a particular educational and career path.

QUOTE]

He would if he had a customer who didn't agree with the amount of materials he was billing for. He would then have to show his work to convince the customer that what he was billing for was indeed accurate. I am pretty sure that most people do not accept because I said so as an answer when spending thousands of dollars.

And to answer a pp...our HS does offer "shop" type classes and tracks as well and they are a top ranking HS in the nation. So it is not just college tracks.