Is this a scam?

[_auroraborealis_]

Wait, what? The DVC owner contract refers to renting points?

Yes. It is explicitly permitted. Contract between owner and renter required

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Wait, what? The DVC owner contract refers to renting points?

Yes. It has since day one and still does. Or at least I've not heard it has changed although the last contract I saw was for the Poly resort. It allows renting and also designates you are to have a contract with the renter. Also that it can't be done as a business and I believe it also designates that you are to notify DVC that the people staying are not members. They have a check box for online bookings that covers that.

 

[MICKIMINI]

Too risky! I only rent to families through a broker unless it is a personal friend- protection for both parties is worth a bit extra.

 

[mort1331]

FWIW, the DVC owner contract requires that we use contracts when renting points. So if someone isn't offering you a contract, that is also a red flag.

Yes but it doesnt outline what has to be a contract. An exchange of emails back and forth outlining dates and payment could be seen as a contract. FWIW most of the ones I have seen on here are worht as much as the emails. So I wouldnt say that without a formal contract thats a red flag.
Disclosure. I have rented many times. And now have 2 familiesnthat email me yearly to see if I have extra. Sometimes yes sometimes no. But not once have I or them had pen.to paper.

 

[cruisin5]

Thank you for your advice, everyone. I agree... the whole thing seemed very sketchy. I'm now working with a different owner who takes payment with a check and is very upfront about giving us a confirmation and contract before payment. I'm feeling a lot better about it.

You should always get the confirmation email forwarded to you before paying.

Some may want a small deposit (like $100) to make the deposit but I've never heard of anyone wanting payment before providing the confirmation. Also, the confirmation number is not enough IMO, you want the original email forwarded to you and note that the owner's name matches that of the seller. (This could be a husband/wife or other legit name difference, but I would question it anyway. Honest, reputable owners aren't hiding anything.

 

[WalloghbyWay]

I'm looking to rent vacation points from a DVC member. It is a large reservation -- 9 nights at BLT in a 2 bedroom. At the beginning, they said we could use PayPal. Now they're saying they don't want to do PayPal because it isn't good for timeshares, but would rather me pay them with multiple Disney e-gift cards, saying I would be protected through my credit card that way. Does this seem like a scam to anyone who has been doing this a long time? I would appreciate any advice before proceeding!

Yeah I’d stay away from that one...... PayPal or Venmo is fine...... This reminds me of the IRS scam about paying your taxes with a target gift card lol

 

[bumbershoot]

PayPal isn’t good for timeshares that’s true (they do not protect the DVC owner if a deal goes bad)

PP doesn’t protect anyone with a timeshare rental.

I think they did, as a courtesy, once to someone who was renting points and posted here, but it certainly isn’t an official thing.

If you buy gift cards and send them, your credit card gives you zero protection there.

Exactly.

Wait, what? The DVC owner contract refers to renting points?

Yes. Why is this a surprise?

 

[Marionnette]

You should always get the confirmation email forwarded to you before paying.

Some may want a small deposit (like $100) to make the deposit but I've never heard of anyone wanting payment before providing the confirmation. Also, the confirmation number is not enough IMO, you want the original email forwarded to you and note that the owner's name matches that of the seller. (This could be a husband/wife or other legit name difference, but I would question it anyway. Honest, reputable owners aren't hiding anything.

Scammers have been “booking” reservations with legitimate owners, then “selling” the reservation to victims. They use the confirmation email that the owner forwards to them to appear legitimate. When they don’t pay the actual owner, the reservation gets canceled but the scammer is long gone with their victim’s money. Getting a copy of the original confirmation email is no guarantee that the seller is legit.

 

[Chuck S]

Yes but it doesnt outline what has to be a contract. An exchange of emails back and forth outlining dates and payment could be seen as a contract. FWIW most of the ones I have seen on here are worht as much as the emails. So I wouldnt say that without a formal contract thats a red flag.
Disclosure. I have rented many times. And now have 2 familiesnthat email me yearly to see if I have extra. Sometimes yes sometimes no. But not once have I or them had pen.to paper.

Well, an email can be a contract as long as it clearly shows both parties agreeing. There are also ways online to sign a contract, I've used them when buying/selling real estate. Verisign and E-Signature are a couple of them.

 

[.landry]

before I purchased, I used to rent points (and have done so when i needed a few extra). I only purchase from people on this board (or one of my owners groups on FB) who have a long track record that I can see in the groups. Then all of the other precautions that are outlined in the pinned post here in the rent/trade subthread. Unless i could vet the owner more thoroughly, id steer clear of this transaction.

 

[cruisin5]

Scammers have been “booking” reservations with legitimate owners, then “selling” the reservation to victims. They use the confirmation email that the owner forwards to them to appear legitimate. When they don’t pay the actual owner, the reservation gets canceled but the scammer is long gone with their victim’s money. Getting a copy of the original confirmation email is no guarantee that the seller is legit.

While the confirmation email isn't a guarantee it's not a scam, in the above the name on the "Welcome Home, Owner's Name" wouldn't match. Also, the email thread would be broken, the person renting the points wouldn't receive an email directly forwarded from Disney.

The confirmation email holds clues to the legitimacy of the owner and the transaction.

 

[Marionnette]

While the confirmation email isn't a guarantee it's not a scam, in the above the name on the "Welcome Home, Owner's Name" wouldn't match. Also, the email thread would be broken, the person renting the points wouldn't receive an email directly forwarded from Disney.

The confirmation email holds clues to the legitimacy of the owner and the transaction.

As an owner, I won’t forward the mail. A longtime member of another board, who frequently rents her points, was scammed in this manner. The scammer used her confirmation email, an email address similar to hers, had potential victims check the references that she had provided, and bilked an unsuspecting renter out of thousands of dollars. And who got harassed by the irate renter? Not the scammer! The poor owner, who had to prove her innocence. I’ve seen this scam repeated on Facebook.

Nope. A confirmation number that can be confirmed in MDE should be sufficient IF the renter has enough confidence that the owner is legit. Talk to the owner on the phone. Check the O.C. comptroller’s website to verify ownership. Get references and check them. Use legitimate methods of payment that are traceable. Run away fast if you don’t feel comfortable at any point in the process.

 

[cruisin5]

As an owner, I won’t forward the mail. A longtime member of another board, who frequently rents her points, was scammed in this manner. The scammer used her confirmation email, an email address similar to hers, had potential victims check the references that she had provided, and bilked an unsuspecting renter out of thousands of dollars. And who got harassed by the irate renter? Not the scammer! The poor owner, who had to prove her innocence. I’ve seen this scam repeated on Facebook.

Nope. A confirmation number that can be confirmed in MDE should be sufficient IF the renter has enough confidence that the owner is legit. Talk to the owner on the phone. Check the O.C. comptroller’s website to verify ownership. Get references and check them. Use legitimate methods of payment that are traceable. Run away fast if you don’t feel comfortable at any point in the process.

The non-matching owner's name on the confirmation and the email not forwarded directly from Disney are red flags that would not have been raised if only the confirmation number was given.

I can't see the downside of forwarding the email.

 

[Marionnette]

The non-matching owner's name on the confirmation and the email not forwarded directly from Disney are red flags that would not have been raised if only the confirmation number was given.

I can't see the downside of forwarding the email.

Let me put it a little more simply.

1. The scammer got the owner to forward the confirmation email. The reservation was in the owner’s name until a contract was signed.
2. The scammer posed as the owner and offered the confirmed reservation to the renter, using the owner’s references and the confirmation email as “proof”. Email still showed the actual owner’s name in the body of the email. Victim is told that this will be changed once signed contract and payment is received.
3. Renter paid the scammer without having the names on the reservation changed, so no way to check MDE to make sure it was legit. The scammer never paid the owner. The owner canceled the reservation.
4. Scammer repeated the scam using the same confirmation email on other victims and telling them to check the references supplied by the owner. Angry victims start contacting police in the owner’s locale.
5. Owner had to prove their innocence. Victims are out of thousands of $. Owner’s reputation is tarnished.

A more recent scam involved an owner on Facebook who made a reservation for a scammer. This time, the scammer “sold” the confirmed reservation to a victim who asked for a confirmation email that showed their names on the reservation. Scammer asked for a good faith deposit from victim, then asked the owner to place the victims’ names on the reservation and forward the confirmation email. Scammer forwarded the email to the victim. Victim checked the reservation in MDE and sent the scammer final payment. Real owner never received payment, so they removed the names provided by the scammer from the reservation. Reservation disappeared from the victim’s MDE account. Scammer disappears.

I was just able to bounce a confirmation email that I have between 3 email accounts just by doing a c/p of the body of the email and changing the “To:” email address to the one from which it was forwarded. It was very easy for me to do. And if I figured that out, you can bet that a scammer did, too.

So in short, forwarding a copy of the confirmation email does not provide an additional layer of protection for the renter. Rather, it just furnishes scammers with another way to lend legitimacy to their scams.

 

[cruisin5]

Let me put it a little more simply.

1. The scammer got the owner to forward the confirmation email. The reservation was in the owner’s name until a contract was signed.
2. The scammer posed as the owner and offered the confirmed reservation to the renter, using the owner’s references and the confirmation email as “proof”. Email still showed the actual owner’s name in the body of the email. Victim is told that this will be changed once signed contract and payment is received.
3. Renter paid the scammer without having the names on the reservation changed, so no way to check MDE to make sure it was legit. The scammer never paid the owner. The owner canceled the reservation.
4. Scammer repeated the scam using the same confirmation email on other victims and telling them to check the references supplied by the owner. Angry victims start contacting police in the owner’s locale.
5. Owner had to prove their innocence. Victims are out of thousands of $. Owner’s reputation is tarnished.

A more recent scam involved an owner on Facebook who made a reservation for a scammer. This time, the scammer “sold” the confirmed reservation to a victim who asked for a confirmation email that showed their names on the reservation. Scammer asked for a good faith deposit from victim, then asked the owner to place the victims’ names on the reservation and forward the confirmation email. Scammer forwarded the email to the victim. Victim checked the reservation in MDE and sent the scammer final payment. Real owner never received payment, so they removed the names provided by the scammer from the reservation. Reservation disappeared from the victim’s MDE account. Scammer disappears.

I was just able to bounce a confirmation email that I have between 3 email accounts just by doing a c/p of the body of the email and changing the “To:” email address to the one from which it was forwarded. It was very easy for me to do. And if I figured that out, you can bet that a scammer did, too.

So in short, forwarding a copy of the confirmation email does not provide an additional layer of protection for the renter. Rather, it just furnishes scammers with another way to lend legitimacy to their scams.

In both of those cases, the "Welcome home, Owner's Name" that appears in the email would be name of the real owner, not of the person they think they are renting from/paying.

I followed the thread in your second example, in this case the person trying to rent points would have received an email saying "Welcome home, ABC", where ABC is a well known person in the group and not the person they were renting from, it *may* have raised a red flag. There were red flags all over that transaction.

The email confirms the name of the owner.




Many spam filters check for spoofed addresses, but people still remove items from spam without giving it a second thought.

I still don't see the reason to not forward the email or to suggest to a renter they receive the email and not just the confirmation number.

There are legitimate reasons for the Welcome home, name to be different - marriage, spouse, renting points for a friend. There are legitimate reasons for an owner not to show up on the OC website, too.

 

[Marionnette]

In both of those cases, the "Welcome home, Owner's Name" that appears in the email would be name of the real owner, not of the person they think they are renting from/paying.

I followed the thread in your second example, in this case the person trying to rent points would have received an email saying "Welcome home, ABC", where ABC is a well known person in the group and not the person they were renting from, it *may* have raised a red flag. There were red flags all over that transaction.

The email confirms the name of the owner.

View attachment 472891


Many spam filters check for spoofed addresses, but people still remove items from spam without giving it a second thought.

I still don't see the reason to not forward the email or to suggest to a renter they receive the email and not just the confirmation number.

There are legitimate reasons for the Welcome home, name to be different - marriage, spouse, renting points for a friend. There are legitimate reasons for an owner not to show up on the OC website, too.

And again, the doctored email would still appear legit because the scammer is posing as the actual owner...using the owner’s actual name, using an email address similar to that of the one the owner uses, using the fraudulently obtained references that the owner provided when they thought they were dealing with a potential renter. The renter who is being scammed thinks they are dealing with the legitimate owner all along.

 

[cruisin5]

And again, the doctored email would still appear legit because the scammer is posing as the actual owner...using the owner’s actual name, using an email address similar to that of the one the owner uses, using the fraudulently obtained references that the owner provided when they thought they were dealing with a potential renter. The renter who is being scammed thinks they are dealing with the legitimate owner all along.

Editing the content of the "Welcome home, Owner's name" graphic in the confirming email is not easily done, by any means.

I'm out. I guess you can't simplify it enough for my simple mind, but thanks for trying!

 

[WalloghbyWay]

I’ll be using redweek.com verified or other websites where I pay them to book the rental. Geez this is rough.