Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

[Flyerjab]

We know a lot about Walt, his personality and his management style. When it came to Disneyland, he was a hands on guy. We know that he frequently visited the park alone, toured the way a guest does, and that he made decisions based on what he saw and heard.

I have never heard of Iger or one of his top lieutenants doing that. And it shows. To take only one tiny but important example, Walt sat on benches to eat his hot dog, watch and listen. Now the parks are being de-benched. Say what you want about greater crowds, traffic flow, gift shop sales, etc. ... But I doubt that any top decision making authority at Disney would say that the park experience is better for guests when there are fewer benches. If they were ever personally in the position of having a hot, fries and soda in their hands and were looking for somewhere to eat it.

If you're going to insist that Walt's dead and therefore we will never be able to learn anything from him, I'm going to respectfully say, you're wrong. Theme parks have hardly changed except in details, and customers are still the same. When it came to building and improving theme parks, Walt's style was not the slightest bit obscure, mysterious, old fashioned or irrelevant.

And yes, I'm going to dare to nitpick, criticize, second guess and grouse about the way that parks are run. With all modesty, I know more about the theme parks from a customer's perspective than anyone who's in top decision making authority right now. And I also have the distinct impression that I know significantly more about their original vision and history. And I'll bet you do too.

Good post. I like when people can respectfully disagree, that is one of the reasons I have started posting more on this site as I enjoy many of the posters' styles here.

And I will be honest, although I am old enough to be @rteetz 's father, I only started going to WDW in 2009. I know that I am in a discussion pool with people that have been swimming in for a much longer time than I have. My love for everything Disney is only recent. I have had the good fortune though of learning some things over the past several years.

But I will admit, it is wonderful to think of how Walt was as a businessman, entrepreneur, artist and visionary. I just don't think that how things were in the 50's translates into the reality of the world today. When I think of America in the early 50's, we were just coming off of victories in Europe and the Pacific theaters. There was a very pro-American sentiment that resonated in the world then. I always see those times as when the concept of Americana was at its peak, epitomized in my mind in very Norman Rockwellian brush strokes. I think that those concepts were evident in the type of park that Walt designed in DL.

The WDW of today has become this mega resort that Disney seems to treat as its premier worldwide destination (although some might argue that the quality experience would be in TDL and TDS). I honestly don't expect the Disney that was to exist anymore in today's world, especially in Orlando. It seems that there is a bit more nostalgia that has been successfully preserved in DL, but WDW is a bit different when it comes to that.

The scale to which WDW has grown it still is amazing to me that they are able to deliver the quality of product that they do. And again, keep in mind that I am a recent die hard fan, so that is my perspective. For example, the Hub with benches is something that I have never experienced so I can't speak to it. But I will say that I can just as easily eat a hotdog while sitting on the new planter walls that are in the Hub now. They are designed to serve multiple purposes and I see people sitting on them all of the time. And I have seen photos of the Hub when the trees blocked the view of the castle from Main Street, and I will admit, it looked beautiful. For I have learned that at that time, the castle was the true beginning of Fantasyland. But today, with crowds that border on insanity at times, I understand the changes that were recently made to the Hub, and love what it looks like now.

However, one thing that I can't disagree on with you concerns Iger's lack of presence in the parks. Maybe he enjoys the movie and TV sides of the business instead. But yes, someone that runs a resort like this should visit it…and not with an entourage. He should visit like the rest of us and get a QS lunch, or wait in a 240 minute line, or tour Future World and see just how soulless it has become, or use a bathroom in Tomorrowland. I am in complete agreement with you there.

 

[Josh Hendy]

America isn't like it was in the 50s any more ... But to some degree it would be worth trying to recapture and emulate the conditions which led to the boom and the feeling of optimism.

Too complicated to get into, but I'll throw this out:

Disney is "too big" imho. Meaning it has so many businesses and divisions and so many customers that it can't respond well to most of their needs. It has millions of customers in America and Europe and a billion customers in Asia ... Can it concentrate its brains and energy enough to make them all happy? Not if you think that the reason why WDW is suffering is because they "have to" deal with the messes in Paris and Shanghai.

If Iger was to just chill on a bench in DHS the board would say, dude, you've got a billion or so riding on your promise to hit one out of the park in the People's Paradise, get on it. Send some discarded AAs and pirate boats to Orlando and sign off on the next phase of DVC already. Don't touch DHS unless you can pay for it with cash in hand from price increases.

All in order to make money in a place where Iger isn't even respected, where they actually went out of their way to insult him (for reasons which were made in DC and Beijing) ... and in a country where Disney can hardly repatriate its profits anyway.

 

[WillJenDisney]

Seriously? Because the cost of going increases annually (or more frequently)...

Loyalty isn't a buy once and keep forever thing.

True, so I guess it's just a matter of deciding whether the increasing price remains worth it. Given that more people than ever before are still willing to pay the new prices, it seems the value remains in most folk's eyes.

I guess when I think of loyalty, I'm just thinking of whether I still love the place. Which I do, regardless of whether they add new things. Ironically, it seems some here decide the place isn't what it used to be unless it's constantly changing.

 

[Planogirl]

True, so I guess it's just a matter of deciding whether the increasing price remains worth it. Given that more people than ever before are still willing to pay the new prices, it seems the value remains in most folk's eyes.

I guess when I think of loyalty, I'm just thinking of whether I still love the place. Which I do, regardless of whether they add new things. Ironically, it seems some here decide the place isn't what it used to be unless it's constantly changing.

I'm a very vocal critic but I still go too. I complain about the changes but I really don't mind change if it leads to something good. Change just for the sake of change serves no purpose.

I don't care much about the fact that WDW is so popular when it comes to discussions about quality. I see quality TV shows being canceled while the Kardashians stay on year after year. The top movie box office is mostly dictated by entertaining "OK" movies while high quality films often become niche products. And the list goes on. I'm not saying that WDW is anything like the Kardashians but the point is that quality doesn't necessarily have much to do with popularity.

I like the idea of Iger sitting on a bench with a hot dog observing the masses. I can't see him ever doing anything like this but it sure would make him seem a bit human.

 

[jade1]

Been here 2 weeks and its better than ever. Of course perfect weather compared to home certainly helps on its own.

Have spent a day at US and one at the beach. Both days had as amazing nights back at Disney helped even further with FP+.

Now it is seasonal, but US is beyond pathetic compared to WDW this time of year anyway. Walking into MK after a Day at US really hits you.

Have also noticed the production value difference, from Os Lights, to the amazing night shows. MK XMAS Parade just kills it, even Elsa Castle lighting is higher on our list than rides, dinner in Beast Castle same thing last night, castle projection show, Illuminations holiday ending, NYE fireworks preview the 30th, NYE fireworks at EPCOT esp the ending, Frozen first time in forever actors are hilarious and having A&E there for 15 shows a day, Fantasmic still amazes with all the live actors, Gaston was at B&B-not an acor it was him, Star Wars Launch bay after seeing the movie was great, Star wars fireworks every night with a great ending, snow on Main Street and all the decor.

New DVC resorts making deluxe affordable, the rides become secondary for us, but most of favorites are since 2000 on top of everything above.

ME makes it so relaxing as from being driven and no bags, grocery delivery and alcohol as well.

It's a perfect trip, but somehow is going to get even better.

 

[Planogirl]

Been here 2 weeks and its better than ever. Of course perfect weather compared to home certainly helps on its own.

Have spent a day at US and one at the beach. Both days had as amazing nights back at Disney helped even further with FP+.

Now it is seasonal, but US is beyond pathetic compared to WDW this time of year anyway. Walking into MK after a Day at US really hits you.

Have also noticed the production value difference, from Os Lights, to the amazing night shows. MK XMAS Parade just kills it, even Elsa Castle lighting is higher on our list than rides, dinner in Beast Castle same thing last night, castle projection show, Illuminations holiday ending, NYE fireworks preview the 30th, NYE fireworks at EPCOT esp the ending, Frozen first time in forever actors are hilarious and having A&E there for 15 shows a day, Fantasmic still amazes with all the live actors, Gaston was at B&B-not an acor it was him, Star Wars Launch bay after seeing the movie was great, Star wars fireworks every night with a great ending, snow on Main Street and all the decor.

New DVC resorts making deluxe affordable, the rides become secondary for us, but most of favorites are since 2000 on top of everything above.

ME makes it so relaxing as from being driven and no bags, grocery delivery and alcohol as well.

It's a perfect trip, but somehow is going to get even better.

I enjoy and strive for that "pathetic" atmosphere. We can only go during busy times and haven't had the chance to enjoy that in years.

Otherwise thanks for the trip report...

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Ironically, it seems some here decide the place isn't what it used to be unless it's constantly changing.

There's nothing ironic in that at all. At one time the only constant at Disney was change and it wasn't always adding a new attraction. Sometimes and addition as simple as Trader Sam on the JC is enough to show an interest in improvement. No part of Disney design ever involved stagnation.

 

[jade1]

I enjoy and strive for that "pathetic" atmosphere. We can only go during busy times and haven't had the chance to enjoy that in years.

Otherwise thanks for the trip report...

Well your in luck, go to Uni.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Well your in luck, go to Uni.

Honestly, you're just carrying a bucket.

Studios is far more "pathetic" than universal and has been in decline for years.

One middle of the road amusement park flat ride in 16 years...that ain't "magic"

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Honestly, you're just carrying a bucket.

Studios is far more "pathetic" that universal and has been in decline for years.

One middle of the road amusement park flat ride in 16 years...that ain't "magic"

Not sure if you noticed in that babble but I'm fairly sure the alcohol delivery plays a much larger part in that than anything Disney actually does.

 

[Eoghann]

My experience last year was that Universal doesn't (yet) have the level of Christmas extras that Disney has in place. Their parade is fun but not on the same level. However, when looking at the parks as a whole the improvement rate is almost exponential at Universal where as it's flat (at best) at Disney World.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Not sure if you noticed in that babble but I'm fairly sure the alcohol delivery plays a much larger part in that than anything Disney actually does.

That's ok...my most memorable "magic" at wdw had alcohol as its prime ingredient.

 

[jade1]

Honestly, you're just carrying a bucket.

Studios is far more "pathetic" that universal and has been in decline for years.

One middle of the road amusement park flat ride in 16 years...that ain't "magic"

I'm at uni right now, it is what is. Some great rides but it stops there at least for us.

Got here about 3, did Gringotts in 60 min, and Mummy in 60 as well, still great just wish it had as much coaster track and g force as mine train or even Mummy

Took parade pics on the "xmas" decorated block. Fantasmic and Star Wars fireworks are actually a lttle better but just my opinion of course.

At NBC grill now hoping for the Wild game but apprentice even Tampa is not on the radar here.

Might grab some FP'S and over to DHS for some night time quality.

 

[jade1]

K cool games on, but 2 already headed to MK after selecting Splash, BTMRR and Buzz, and pan and pirates avail but passed. Just got these a bit ago.

BLT room so hoping to make Elsa Castle lighting, Projection show, Wishes and the parade no problem. Back to original Wishes tonight so they wanted to see that.

Plus it's open until midnight and only 10 here.

No water carrying, just facts on another great night at WDW.

 

[Planogirl]

Well your in luck, go to Uni.

I do regularly as do others I know. No one has commented that it's pathetic but to each their own.

 

[WillJenDisney]

There's nothing ironic in that at all. At one time the only constant at Disney was change and it wasn't always adding a new attraction. Sometimes and addition as simple as Trader Sam on the JC is enough to show an interest in improvement. No part of Disney design ever involved stagnation.

I agree, but it seems to me those kind of incremental changes have been made over the years. But nobody seems to appreciate those anymore. The NFL change was great IMO, but then I see others hate it. Adding to Soarin and TSM to make the lines shorter. Adding food booths during Food & Wine. Suites at a value resort. Making more room in the Magic Kingdom hub. Making the musical at animal kingdom an indoor show to get out of the sun. Etc etc. Small changes like that matter to me. Doesn't all have to be the greatest E-ticket, incorporating new techs never before seen anywhere, in order for me to appreciate the change.

 

[WillJenDisney]

I'm a very vocal critic but I still go too. I complain about the changes but I really don't mind change if it leads to something good. Change just for the sake of change serves no purpose.

I don't care much about the fact that WDW is so popular when it comes to discussions about quality. I see quality TV shows being canceled while the Kardashians stay on year after year. The top movie box office is mostly dictated by entertaining "OK" movies while high quality films often become niche products. And the list goes on. I'm not saying that WDW is anything like the Kardashians but the point is that quality doesn't necessarily have much to do with popularity.

I like the idea of Iger sitting on a bench with a hot dog observing the masses. I can't see him ever doing anything like this but it sure would make him seem a bit human.

Ouch. The Kardashian analogy hurts...mostly because it's appropriately made. Good point.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree, but it seems to me those kind of incremental changes have been made over the years. But nobody seems to appreciate those anymore. The NFL change was great IMO, but then I see others hate it. Adding to Soarin and TSM to make the lines shorter. Adding food booths during Food & Wine. Suites at a value resort. Making more room in the Magic Kingdom hub. Making the musical at animal kingdom an indoor show to get out of the sun. Etc etc. Small changes like that matter to me. Doesn't all have to be the greatest E-ticket, incorporating new techs never before seen anywhere, in order for me to appreciate the change.

Ok…i'll play…

"new fantasyland" was a repurposing of the closed 20,000 leagues lagoon area that closed in 1999…and the rapunzel bathroom was placed where the 1999 closed skyway station used to be. mine train was built across from the closed snow whites scary adventures and was replaced with a princess meet and greet that was moved from the tent in toontown. enchanted tales with belle was moved…as was dumbo. ariels grotto was moved. toontowns tent was taken down…then replaced with nearly the exact same tent as was there before…the completely "new" portions were be our guest (not breathtaking by any stretch), ariel, and gastons.

I don't "dislike" any of these things…but they are what they are - repurposing by and large.

Soarin and toy story mania…the definition of "c" tickets…are having extra capacity added 11 and 8 years after opening - respectively - to reduce the standby wait from 75-90 minutes down to 45-60. tale of the tape there. and more fast pass slots - probably most importantly to the orwellian disney nerve center.

food and wine is "second verse, same as the first" at this point. Incredibly popular…but far from original and ingenious now. And i had a wedding in that park at that time. But that was 12 years ago - and it was already well established then. That doesn't bother me as much as they CLONED the festival booths for flower and garden. What's unique about 4 months a year of the booths being "special"?

The suites are a good move in many ways. But don't ya think the prices at AoA are whack? $350 a night plus for a place with no restaurant? I mean…disney is crazy for how much they require the customer to pay for things like a hot tub and a monorail and a boat and have been for close to 25 years….but this is on a new level. buy a room at beach club for the same price, have somebody sleep in the bathroom (joking…not saying to do this realistically) and you get a waterpark and a 5 minute walk to france.

they paved over the horticulture and landscaping in the hub to provide a place to sell more $60 cupcakes and give people a spot to "look up" WITH FASTPASS at a 13 year old fireworks display with probably 60% of the bursts as the original…you do get the castle show now. I will call SHENANIGANS on any reference of "guest benefit" on this one…its a pure meat market/cattle drive move.

Which show at animal kingdom? Nemo? which is better that the previous? Not Festival - where they moved it from the "temporary" theater to the permanent that i can't figure out what is different at all? Cause that doesn't move the bar. I won't even bring up that the show was a placeholder to cover for an abandoned section of the original park design using old magic kingdom parade floats….even though its 100% true, i won't mention it


My stance has been without waiver that none of these things have actually added to the guest experience or close to the value of steadily increasing rooms, tickets and food. All of those things have been on a parabolic trajectory up without pause no matter what real life was saying was prudent.
Now, we seem to be getting back to "addition mode"…so things are looking better right now.

But what I…and i venture others…are saying here is that DISNEY operating procedure was never to do "nothing" or "little" for long stretches of time in the parks. not when the man died, not in the 70's recessions, not in the 80's takeover threats, sure as hell not in the 90's or even crazy late eisner circa 2003.

It was certainly not standard operation procedure as it has become dangerous close to recently….

you know what else was unheard of? "mothballing"

wonders of life…imagination in ruins…innoventions a 20 year wreck…everest broken….pleasure island closed….studios 30% closed - and i'm being generous there… animal kingdom still one land short (minimum) 18 years after opening….

thats eisner AND iger - but it is the truth.

I'm thrilled they went from the DOS based resort system of 1986 design to a windows based…in 2004. Also thrilled i have a waterproof rubber band that makes the mickey spin as opposed to reaching into my pocket (could do without those silly finger scanners though).
Those are IMPROVEMENTs….no question.

But they really used a lot of their parks lifespan in ignoring what had made them great in the first place: that they are never "done" and that quality will win out.

just the view from the cheap seats.

 

[RedSox68]

I did not wade through all 29 pages, so I repeat comments -- I apologize. We spent December 2014 at both Universal (4 nights) and Disney (4 nights) for my birthday. This is our third time going in December, and our 7th trip to WDW. But we noticed a huge "decline" in many Disney attractions and restaurants. As mentioned above, DHS has become a "nothing" park now -- when it was once our favorite. If you are not a Star Wars fan, or a stunt show fan, there's nothing there. The Great Movie ride was awful -- several of the props and animatronics were broken. Poor Ingrid Berman's statue's head was broken to one side and one eye was sunken in. What the heck -- why hasn't that ride been better maintained and updated and for goodness sake -- add a movie or two, there's plenty of room! We loved the new Fantasyland and were treated like royalty at Crystal Palace for my birthday. But the inability to handle the crowds was very noticeable this trip and we got stepped on twice by security trying to force people to keep moving on sidewalks during a parade. We finally left as we felt the situation was getting dangerous and security seemed confused as to which direction to send the crowd.

However, our trip to the Universal Parks was a much different experience. Having never been there in December, we found the resorts and parks beautifully decorated. Both Harry Potter lands, the incredible accomplishment of the train trips and illusion of traveling through English countryside were awesome, and the calm pace and wonderful food made us realize that we are leaning toward going back to Universal before we do Disney. Why -- ticket and hotel prices mostly. Our tickets for four day park hoppers for three to Disney were over $1,400, but our tickets to Universal for park-to park for three were only about $900. That's a huge difference. Sure, Universal doesn't have as many parks, but what a wonderful saving of time to be able to walk anywhere you want there or take the river boats. No long waits for buses or the monorail.

In addition, Disney decision to get rid of the Osbourne lights and other areas of DHS to expand the Star Wars part capped it for us. Disney seems to be aiming at a particular consumer in their wish to attract a younger crowd, and yet they closed part of Animal Kingdom for an Avatar park. Now THAT is where I think Disney is "screwed" -- as I think they will regret that decision. By the time it opens, no one will care.

Anyway, with their prices the way they are, the frustrating inability to get restaurant reservations without spending hours online to secure them, and the crowds, we all agreed our next vacation will be more relaxing at Universal. Our reasons are strictly personal and not anything Disney could prevent or avoid, but money-wise Universal is more cost effective for us!

 

[jade1]

they closed part of Animal Kingdom for an Avatar park. Now THAT is where I think Disney is "screwed" -- as I think they will regret that decision. By the time it opens, no one will care!

Not sure how much they removed, but if you are correct AK attendance will fall, my guess is it will increase.