Is Disney really hurting that bad financially?

[TiggerBouncy]

Exactly.

Universal has nothing new for the next 3 years, then all at once they open a new park. So, yes, in 2025 - that one year - Universal will introduce more than Disney. But if you count what Universal and Disney introduce in 2020-2025 or 2015-2025, still advantage, Disney.

Right, But they are not adding a fifth gate. For some reason, people have deadlocked into that need for a fifth gate. Disney has a different perspective. They feel that the 4 parks they have currently embrace the concepts they want. There has been - for many years - a desire to see a villain park. From what I have heard in the rumor mill, Disney actually sees some merit in the idea; but they want to place it within MK (and I can not say I disagree). They do not believe that warrants a full park by itself. Not that they couldn't come up with enough ideas. Just that they do not see it as a separate park concept.

If you example the parks, each has a distinct purpose.

So far any concept that Disney has had would feed into one of those 4 base themes. They have not had something that justifies in and of itself a new concept which cannot be met by the existing parks, and adding a new park adds a LOT of infrastructure which just seems unnecessary. I.E. you can add a Villian land in MK easily. But to add a fifth gate, you need ticket counters, roads, busses, parking lots, other mass transit. You need a lot more staff. You need backend / behind the scenes infrastructure. You need to do a TON of IT work. That's all before you even approach that a new park needs a dozen+ rides, shows, dozens of venues for food (your guests can't have to go to another park just to eat), etc, etc, etc.

Compare this to adding a villain section to MK which basically requires a few rides, a bathroom, 1-2 restrooms, and that's about it.

Universal HAS to make a new gate. They can't expand where they are and they do not have the infrastructure to support it, and conceptually they do not have the same layout that Disney has. Apples to Oranges. A new gate completely makes sense for Universal. It does not make sense for Disney.

 

[bbeagle]

Right, But they are not adding a fifth gate. For some reason, people have deadlocked into that need for a fifth gate. ....

Universal HAS to make a new gate. They can't expand where they are and they do not have the infrastructure to support it, and conceptually they do not have the same layout that Disney has. Apples to Oranges. A new gate completely makes sense for Universal. It does not make sense for Disney.

Agreed. Very well said.

 

[wkrainey]

Right, But they are not adding a fifth gate. For some reason, people have deadlocked into that need for a fifth gate. Disney has a different perspective. They feel that the 4 parks they have currently embrace the concepts they want. There has been - for many years - a desire to see a villain park. From what I have heard in the rumor mill, Disney actually sees some merit in the idea; but they want to place it within MK (and I can not say I disagree). They do not believe that warrants a full park by itself. Not that they couldn't come up with enough ideas. Just that they do not see it as a separate park concept.

If you example the parks, each has a distinct purpose.

So far any concept that Disney has had would feed into one of those 4 base themes. They have not had something that justifies in and of itself a new concept which cannot be met by the existing parks, and adding a new park adds a LOT of infrastructure which just seems unnecessary. I.E. you can add a Villian land in MK easily. But to add a fifth gate, you need ticket counters, roads, busses, parking lots, other mass transit. You need a lot more staff. You need backend / behind the scenes infrastructure. You need to do a TON of IT work. That's all before you even approach that a new park needs a dozen+ rides, shows, dozens of venues for food (your guests can't have to go to another park just to eat), etc, etc, etc.

Compare this to adding a villain section to MK which basically requires a few rides, a bathroom, 1-2 restrooms, and that's about it.

Universal HAS to make a new gate. They can't expand where they are and they do not have the infrastructure to support it, and conceptually they do not have the same layout that Disney has. Apples to Oranges. A new gate completely makes sense for Universal. It does not make sense for Disney.

I think the big factor on why Disney doesn't do a 5th is the average length of an American vacation. Most people only take vacation for around a week at a time in the US. Adding a 5th park doesn't extend the overall length of vacation time used by guests and in turn doesn't generate additional revenue on existing guests coming to visit. I think it's one of the big reasons why Disney focuses on seasonal merchandise as much as it has lately. People will buy new merch when it comes out season after season. We've seen the mickey ears and popcorn bucket lines people wait in. However, what we didn't see post land opening was extended month over month delays to get into SW:GE, Pandora, Toy Story, or Avengers Campus. The diehard regulars flooded the parks when those opened. The rest of the crowds just went during regular vacation visits. Not doing a 5th park is a calculated move based around vacation length in my opinion more than necessity.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I think the big factor on why Disney doesn't do a 5th is the average length of an American vacation. Most people only take vacation for around a week at a time in the US. Adding a 5th park doesn't extend the overall length of vacation time used by guests and in turn doesn't generate additional revenue on existing guests coming to visit. I think it's one of the big reasons why Disney focuses on seasonal merchandise as much as it has lately. People will buy new merch when it comes out season after season. We've seen the mickey ears and popcorn bucket lines people wait in. However, what we didn't see post land opening was extended month over month delays to get into SW:GE, Pandora, Toy Story, or Avengers Campus. The diehard regulars flooded the parks when those opened. The rest of the crowds just went during regular vacation visits. Not doing a 5th park is a calculated move based around vacation length in my opinion more than necessity.

I do not disagree with you. Again, it is apples to oranges for what Universal faces vs what Disney faces. Comparing the 2 is not fair. Universal it makes total sense for a new gate. The way they are structured makes sense. For Disney it does not make sense for a number of reasons. You are absolutely correct that one of those is based on the average vacation length and budget. It doesn't make sense based on infrastructure. It doesn't make sense based on theming.

But again, a lot of people on here see "new park" and "no new park" and that's the end of it.

 

[HashberryOTG]

I like each park for what it is. We are out-of-staters with AP to WDW and UO.

Disney is more immersive, more rides, more experiences, etc. I can spend days just trying festival food in Epcot alone. Most of the rides are more laid back, and the # of restaurants and cuisines (if I have room after festival food!) is awesome. Mostly better theming.

But most of our trips also include a couple of days at Universal. HP is so well done and I enjoy the more thrilling style rides. And who doesn't love a steampunk chocolate dive with giant crazy milkshakes, seriously?

For us UO is only a couple of days, as the parks are smaller with fewer attractions, whereas WDW takes longer. I think they stay roughly caught up with each other for upgrades, considering space, size and $. They're completely different experiences, both (to us) great for what they are. One of these trips we might even make it to Sea World. Afraid to go cuz then I might have to add it to trips all the time.

 

[namelessoracle]

Universal is a competitor to Disney only during Horror Nights (which gives it a de facto additional gate sense the Horror Nights experience is effectively a different park for those who enjoy it). The addition of Epic will make it a for real competitor to Disney. Right now Universal is about a 4 day trip if you max it out. (do literally everything in each park available including Volcano Bay) Horror Nights pushes it out to a week vacation when that is available. Epic will make stuff to do for a week there. 4 days of being in parks, 1 day to rest and enjoy Citywalk. Horror Nights when Epic gets going will make it truly comparable (4 gates, and a water park trip).

The problem that is looming for Universal, is that they try hard to be better than Disney at alot of things (bus services, perks for staying with them, prices, deals, the events they run). And it's going to be hard for them to resist raising their prices like crazy and cutting perks when Epic drops. Look at Horror Nights, it blows away Mickey's Not So Scary in terms of unique offerings. It also costs about twice as much if you get the express pass. (cheaper than Mickey's without it though....)

For all the complaints about Genie Plus, Universals Haves vs Have Nots is way more expensive.

 

[New Mouse]

Disney's biggest issue is it has so much in need of replacement but also needs many new things in different spaces to add capacity as well.

 

[gharter]

For all the complaints about Genie Plus, Universals Haves vs Have Nots is way more expensive.

I have to disagree. Disney has NOTHING that compares to express pass. When we go to Universal, we stay onsite that includes "free" express pass. The room is no more expensive than disney but has the free pass. Now we can go to front of the line at all but 2 attractions with NO restrictions. I don't need to use my phone to reserve a time, or pay extra to ride an attraction.
If you don't use the free add on at some resorts, yes, the cost can be obscene (upwards of $350 per person per day). But imagine what Disney would charge for the same ticket. Oh they had the plaids for about 10K for 10 people per day.

 

[Upatnoon]

I have to disagree. Disney has NOTHING that compares to express pass. When we go to Universal, we stay onsite that includes "free" express pass. The room is no more expensive than disney but has the free pass. Now we can go to front of the line at all but 2 attractions with NO restrictions. I don't need to use my phone to reserve a time, or pay extra to ride an attraction.
If you don't use the free add on at some resorts, yes, the cost can be obscene (upwards of $350 per person per day). But imagine what Disney would charge for the same ticket. Oh they had the plaids for about 10K for 10 people per day.

Universal has 3 deluxe hotels and Disney has 20, so the impact of offering a similar plan may not be practical or end in a poor experience.

Not included in the 20 are the Swan/Dolphin/Swan Reserve and Four Seasons.

It is fun to compare Disney and Universal, but they are really different because of scale.

Before COVID, Universal had 27,000 employees and Disney had 77,000.

 

[drenalin'junkie]

Having stayed at most of the upscale hotels for both, Disney has less than a half dozen that compare to UO deluxe resorts. Particularly the grounds. Resort restaurants quality is a draw with the exception of V&A. Disney does have far more for sure though.

And as mentioned there is no comparison between the Express Pass that comes with them for the same price and any Disney Genie pass.

 

[New Mouse]

Universal has 3 deluxe hotels and Disney has 20, so the impact of offering a similar plan may not be practical or end in a poor experience.

Not included in the 20 are the Swan/Dolphin/Swan Reserve and Four Seasons.

It is fun to compare Disney and Universal, but they are really different because of scale.

Before COVID, Universal had 27,000 employees and Disney had 77,000.

Don't do it for every hotel. Simple as that. Or do It in a rotating fashion based on day or park to spread attendance. It's probably work well to manage crowds better than their current garbage.

 

[namelessoracle]

I have to disagree. Disney has NOTHING that compares to express pass. When we go to Universal, we stay onsite that includes "free" express pass. The room is no more expensive than disney but has the free pass. Now we can go to front of the line at all but 2 attractions with NO restrictions. I don't need to use my phone to reserve a time, or pay extra to ride an attraction.
If you don't use the free add on at some resorts, yes, the cost can be obscene (upwards of $350 per person per day). But imagine what Disney would charge for the same ticket. Oh they had the plaids for about 10K for 10 people per day.

Maybe my experience is different. But when we went to both universal and Disney in June. We stayed in a deluxe hotel for both (Animal Kingdom Lodge and Portofino Bay). Last week of June.

Animal Kingdom Lodge was about 250 less a night and the room quality was better, better bed, better pillows/blankets and so were the amenities, (Disney resort restaurants blow away Universals, and in hotel activities do too) we got early park access and late hours for Epcot and Magic Kingdom. Portofino had early entry (which we got for having an annual pass anyways) and Express pass as its only edge over Animal Kingdom. But with the difference of price, your basically paying for them as part of the hotel in my mind.

For Portofino we got the Express Passes. This is probably controversial, but Express Pass performed worse than Genie Plus did for us. If we had a Genie Plus lane, we basically walked on to whatever ride we had it for. Express Pass just basically halved whatever the line time was. So yes we didnt have to wait an hour, but still had to wait 30 minutes on a few rides even with Express. Express pass costs 10x what Genie Plus does, (more actually, it was 200 a day when we went to Universal) and yes Genie Plus sucks, but when it does work it does what it says it does much better to me than Express Pass does.

Also Express Pass is a separate sku for Horror Nights, so you spend 150 bucks a head per night even if you are staying in a Deluxe. Horror Nights is basically the big draw to go every year, sense its 10 new attractions every year. (and some of the houses do feel comparable to actual attractions)

Hotel Prices are still cheaper than Disney, but park ticket prices are comparable. Universal does still offer Annual Passes and you have some stuff you can leverage with that (discount Hotel rooms, if you can find the discount, big if), but Disney does sales too if you are staying on top of that.

The big edges to me is that merch and food at Universal is still not gone as insanely priced in the park as Disney has. But you can easily spend as much as a Disney trip if you get unlucky with your dates and what the prices are for the hotels. I dont see this getting better as more people flee Disney to Universal. And they could easily decide to get greedy when they open Epic and see the demand for people wanting to go there.

 

[Miffy]

Maybe my experience is different. But when we went to both universal and Disney in June. We stayed in a deluxe hotel for both (Animal Kingdom Lodge and Portofino Bay). Last week of June.

Animal Kingdom Lodge was about 250 less a night and the room quality was better, better bed, better pillows/blankets and so were the amenities, (Disney resort restaurants blow away Universals, and in hotel activities do too) we got early park access and late hours for Epcot and Magic Kingdom. Portofino had early entry (which we got for having an annual pass anyways) and Express pass as its only edge over Animal Kingdom. But with the difference of price, your basically paying for them as part of the hotel in my mind.

For Portofino we got the Express Passes. This is probably controversial, but Express Pass performed worse than Genie Plus did for us. If we had a Genie Plus lane, we basically walked on to whatever ride we had it for. Express Pass just basically halved whatever the line time was. So yes we didnt have to wait an hour, but still had to wait 30 minutes on a few rides even with Express. Express pass costs 10x what Genie Plus does, (more actually, it was 200 a day when we went to Universal) and yes Genie Plus sucks, but when it does work it does what it says it does much better to me than Express Pass does.

Also Express Pass is a separate sku for Horror Nights, so you spend 150 bucks a head per night even if you are staying in a Deluxe. Horror Nights is basically the big draw to go every year, sense its 10 new attractions every year. (and some of the houses do feel comparable to actual attractions)

Hotel Prices are still cheaper than Disney, but park ticket prices are comparable. Universal does still offer Annual Passes and you have some stuff you can leverage with that (discount Hotel rooms, if you can find the discount, big if), but Disney does sales too if you are staying on top of that.

The big edges to me is that merch and food at Universal is still not gone as insanely priced in the park as Disney has. But you can easily spend as much as a Disney trip if you get unlucky with your dates and what the prices are for the hotels. I dont see this getting better as more people flee Disney to Universal. And they could easily decide to get greedy when they open Epic and see the demand for people wanting to go there.

@namelessoracle, would you mind saying how much each room was per night? I'm curious because the last time I checked AKL it was about $700/night and I think that was with an AP discount. That's for savanna view. Perhaps you were in a standard view room? Or did you rent DVC points?

I understand if you don't want to say, but if you do, TIA.

 

[namelessoracle]

@namelessoracle, would you mind saying how much each room was per night? I'm curious because the last time I checked AKL it was about $700/night and I think that was with an AP discount. That's for savanna view. Perhaps you were in a standard view room? Or did you rent DVC points?

I understand if you don't want to say, but if you do, TIA.

We did Standard view (but still got to see Giraffes when we woke up, I hear thats pretty lucky), and it was about 360 a night, where as Portofino was 700 a night. (so more than 250 actually) We used a special they did in January/February (early in the year) to get the Animal Kindgom lodge room discounted. Its my understanding Disney regularly does that early year discount and people look forward to it to plan their trip for the year.

The only comparable discount I know of is Annual Passholder rate, and those rooms go super fast, (they have a small pool of rooms at that rate) where as Disney was just giving everyone who booked a room the discount to any deluxe when the special was going on.

 

[_19disnA]

The Disney 'company' is more then just amusement parks. They are now this diversified conglomerate with a lot of different types of entertainment offerings. Clearly top management has to juggle a lot of priorities with various unrelated businesses. No one can be an expert in every business so you will find many companies in the past who diversified into so many different areas, they lost their focus.

 

[Jrb1979]

The Disney 'company' is more then just amusement parks. They are now this diversified conglomerate with a lot of different types of entertainment offerings. Clearly top management has to juggle a lot of priorities with various unrelated businesses. No one can be an expert in every business so you will find many companies in the past who diversified into so many different areas, they lost their focus.

Everyone should have seen this coming when the focus shifted to Disney+. The parks aren't the big thing for them anymore.

 

[OKW Lover]

Everyone should have seen this coming when the focus shifted to Disney+. The parks aren't the big thing for them anymore.

Historically, the "parks" were only about 1/3rd of The Walt Disney Company. Historically as in the past 10+ years.

 

[RivShore]

Historically, the "parks" were only about 1/3rd of The Walt Disney Company. Historically as in the past 10+ years.

Right, there is nothing new about their many divisions, they have been a conglomerate for nearly 30 years (at least), since the ABC merger. And I'm not even sure I would consider them a conglomerate in the classic sense (i.e. Berkshire Hathaway, GE, or even Amazon), all the Disney divisions are related industries and feed off each other in one way or another - from movies to products to travel (parks & cruise ships) to network TV and/or D+. Maybe sports is the only thing that does not quite fit? I would consider a classic conglomerate one that could be split apart without any impact to the individual divisions, like GE is doing - aviation, health care, and power systems have nothing to do with each other so splitting them off doesn't hurt any one division. No way you can do that with (most of) Disney.

 

[Jrb1979]

Historically, the "parks" were only about 1/3rd of The Walt Disney Company. Historically as in the past 10+ years.

While true they did tend to invest in them more then they are going forward. Going by D23 they really aren't adding anything major anytime soon. All those blue sky announcements aren't likely to happen.

 

[RivShore]

While true they did tend to invest in them more then they are going forward. Going by D23 they really aren't adding anything major anytime soon. All those blue sky announcements aren't likely to happen.

They are just coming out of a gigantic investment cycle, maybe they need to catch there breath for a bit?