Is anyone getting as turned off as I am?

[rebbyparker]

I think Disney knows it's repeat guests go back to their corners of the country/world and sing Disney's praises and get more new guests coming in more than advertising. We are all like little resellers without taking any profits. That should be valuable to them.

They may know that but they also need to know that people will do the opposite. I've told many people not to bother going to DW until they get this mess straightened out, friends and family and co-workers. Because I was always talking Disney, they would ask and up until the past year I was always ready to help. But as recently as just yesterday, I had a girl ask me about DW for her family and after I explained what was going on (there was a lot of confusion and irritation and finally disgust) she's going to talk to her husband about going somewhere else. And you know what? She actually asked me how she was going to explain this to her husband. How do you explain to someone that they need to do all this major pre-planning when they think they're just going to the World! Just the concept of planning park days, restaurants, character meets and rides months before you even leave. Try telling that to someone who's not a Disney addict and they'll laugh in your face. No other theme park has this amount of planning. I know, I just planned an 8 day vacation to Universal/DC/SW and it took as long as the phone call to rent the hotel, buying tickets online and voila! So you better believe when people ask, I'm not talking Disney up anymore but Universal is getting a few props from me.


And yes, I'm still steamed at what they pulled last year. Rolling out MB's only to certain resorts and then taking regular FP's away from those resorts and not telling the guests (you know, the actual guests who were staying there during their implementation period?). It was a crap shoot every week trying to figure out if the resort that you were going to be staying at would still have the ability to pull regular FP. Because you know? MB's and FP+ didn't really work that well in the beginning and regular FP's were a backup plan. Just making changes that affected everyone going without telling them. Who gets to do that? Disney sure doesn't get a pass from me on that. The company with Customer Service so high that other companies paid them to teach the same Customer Service that they've forgotten or lost or just dumped because they don't care anymore? And watching what they've done since has done nothing to endear Disney to me. So good news spreads but bad news spreads faster.

 

[PrincessV]

How many businesses can afford to piss off their most loyal customers? For now, Disney appears to be getting enough first timers to make up for any shortfall. But how is that sustainable in the long run?

That's the magic question, really. I don't know the answer... but I'm willing to bet Disney crunched the numbers long and hard and concluded this is their best model for maximizing profit... for now. They can just change things up when or if it begins to fail.

How much of this "turned off" feeling is simply naturally growing tired of something that once had greater appeal?

I can only speak for myself, but I can answer that with 0%. WDW itself hasn't lost any appeal for my family; we simply don't enjoy some of the latest changes. So far, we've found ways to still enjoy the things that make us happy while minimizing our engagement with the things that don't. But that's much easier as a semi-local who can afford to say, "Wow, things just aren't working out today. Let's make this the last ride and head home - we'll try again in a couple weeks." Honestly, if I lived farther away, if it cost me more than $20 in gas to get to WDW, I'd be taking a long, long break.

1. They wont lose many of you
2. They know how many they can afford to lose

Nothing personal, just math - and a little behavioral science.

Yep.

 

[surferdave]

1. They wont lose many of you
2. They know how many they can afford to lose

Nothing personal, just math - and a little behavioral science.

I think it's some combination of math, science & hubris. I think there's more of the last ingredient than a lot of folks here do.

 

[OtherScott]

I can only speak for myself, but I can answer that with 0%. WDW itself hasn't lost any appeal for my family; we simply don't enjoy some of the latest changes. So far, we've found ways to still enjoy the things that make us happy while minimizing our engagement with the things that don't. But that's much easier as a semi-local who can afford to say, "Wow, things just aren't working out today. Let's make this the last ride and head home - we'll try again in a couple weeks." Honestly, if I lived farther away, if it cost me more than $20 in gas to get to WDW, I'd be taking a long, long break.

I was talking to the turned off crowd, and wondering to what degree personal preferences play into becoming turned off.

I suspect that some of this is based on personal changes and not so much Disney - which is typical with just about everything else we used to do.

As George Costanza said, "(Maybe) it's not you, it's me."

EDIT: On second thought, George was the eventual victim of this "routine."

George: You're giving me the "it's not you, it's me" routine? I invented "it's not you, it's me". Nobody tells me it's them not me, if it's anybody it's me.

Gwen: All right, George, it's you.

George: You're *damn* right it's me.

 

[flicx]

They may know that but they also need to know that people will do the opposite. I've told many people not to bother going to DW until they get this mess straightened out, friends and family and co-workers. Because I was always talking Disney, they would ask and up until the past year I was always ready to help. But as recently as just yesterday, I had a girl ask me about DW for her family and after I explained what was going on (there was a lot of confusion and irritation and finally disgust) she's going to talk to her husband about going somewhere else. And you know what? She actually asked me how she was going to explain this to her husband. How do you explain to someone that they need to do all this major pre-planning when they think they're just going to the World! Just the concept of planning park days, restaurants, character meets and rides. Try telling that to someone who's not a Disney addict and they'll laugh in your face. No other theme park has this amount of planning. I know, I just planned an 8 day vacation to Universal/DC/SW and it took as long as the phone call to rent the hotel, buying tickets online and voila! So you better believe when people ask, I'm not talking Disney up anymore but Universal is getting a few props from me.


And yes, I'm still steamed at what they pulled last year. Rolling out MB's only to certain resorts and then taking regular FP's away from those resorts and not telling the guests (you know, the actual guests who were staying there during their implementation period?). It was a crap shoot every week trying to figure out if the resort that you were going to be staying at would still have the ability to pull regular FP. Because you know? MB's and FP+ didn't really work that well in the beginning and regular FP's were a backup plan. Just making changes that affected everyone going without telling them. Who gets to do that? Disney sure doesn't get a pass from me on that. The company with Customer Service so high that other companies paid them to teach the same Customer Service that they've forgotten or lost or just dumped because they don't care anymore? And watching what they've done since has done nothing to endear Disney to me. So good news spreads but bad news spreads faster.

Nice post! This holds true for our family too. We were always the Disney fanatics talking to friends and telling them what a good time it is etc. Now when I am asked and it happens frequently I say basically the same thing you do to people. I explain the changes and the pre booking necessary, also how the cost has grown so much and you know many people decide it may not be right for them. I know Disney is busy currently, my theory is it has a lot to do with the current economic recovery we are going through. I however see where all this mess will eventually catch up with Disney. At some point I feel they will see a substantial drop in attendance due to lack of new attractions and constant price increases. At that point it will be catch up time!

 

[Grumpy92]

Right there with you. Been AP holder for 20 years and been going long before that.
As a Floridian and being required to plan so much now Is too much. We went down to Seasonal passes, did not renew our TIW and purchased US APs. Will be spending a long weekend at their new hotel which is cheaper and enjoying the new HP. Have always been WDW homers and we say we just cant believe how the last few years have just turned us off.
* Tried the FP+ and felt like all we did was look at our watch, so we didnt miss our time.
* Refuse to get the band, some of us are allergic to the band then add on the heat and it just doesnt work for us.
* Feel like we just cant do a spur of the moment trip because there is too much planning required now. Too many reservations.
* Used to never leave property for meals and now cant get in or not impressed with the menu choices. We feel alot of the menus are the same offerings. EC seems to be the exception
* The way they have handled DTD, the parking and construction. We always went there but will avoid it until Fall 2015. Hate the parking fee they are adding!!!
* Seems like they are nickel and diming you more on everything. Which used to be my big complaint about US.

 

[OtherScott]

Right there with you. Been AP holder for 20 years and been going long before that.
As a Floridian and being required to plan so much now Is too much. We went down to Seasonal passes, did not renew our TIW and purchased US APs. Will be spending a long weekend at their new hotel which is cheaper and enjoying the new HP. Have always been WDW homers and we say we just cant believe how the last few years have just turned us off.

* Tried the FP+ and felt like all we did was look at our watch, so we didnt miss our time.

Did you use legacy FP? If so, didn't a specified return time require some attention to time and place? The thing I hated most about FP is that I couldn't choose the return time. Sometimes it would have been better to have a return time of 2 hours as opposed to 55 minutes

* Refuse to get the band, some of us are allergic to the band then add on the heat and it just doesnt work for us.

Tickets work the same, no?

* Feel like we just cant do a spur of the moment trip because there is too much planning required now. Too many reservations.

Probably the thing I can relate to most.

* Used to never leave property for meals and now cant get in or not impressed with the menu choices. We feel alot of the menus are the same offerings. EC seems to be the exception

Disney seems stale to me after going 3 times in 12 years. I can't imagine going annually, or even more frequently - for the price they charge.

* The way they have handled DTD, the parking and construction. We always went there but will avoid it until Fall 2015. Hate the parking fee they are adding!!!

* Seems like they are nickel and diming you more on everything. Which used to be my big complaint about US.

 

[crostorfer]

No, we don't represent all Disney guests, but we do represent Disney's most loyal, repeat customers. We post because we are among the most loyal guests. And we are the ones they can least afford to lose. As for Brazil? They already have the Brazilian tour groups, that would be nothing new. And, judging from their reputation, adding more of them would only serve to alienate other guests.

Oh, I disagree, and I disagree whole heartedly. Not only do I think they can afford to lose us, I think they'd do so happily. I think we're the biggest pains in their rear ends and the demographic they least want in their parks. We're vocal, we compare and complain. We know the tricks and cheats, we know how to work the system to the best of it's limited ability. We tell people about the "good old days". We don't spend $1000 every trip on souvineers. We skip every attraction that isn't worth the wait, because we know it isn't, and we clog up the queues for the best ones. Some of us take all of the FP+ reservations at 12:00.45 am on the dot, leaving the rest of us out. Bottom line, we don't equate the biggest bang for their buck.

Now I'm sure someone reading this is saying, "but, I'm a DVC owner, they need me." Not so much, my friends. They don't need YOU, they need your money, which they have. They have your exorbitant down payment, and their contractually guaranteed money from you, regardless of if you ever step foot on their property ever again.

Annual pass holders, they don't really need you either, they got their ridiculous annual fee already. If they needed you, you'd get a lot better perks than you currently do, especially when it comes to FP. Local AP holders are 2nd class citizens.

 

[crostorfer]

Judging from the ever expanding DVC units, Disney NEEDS us loyal repeaters...because the new crowds aren't filling up the rooms as expected...hence the idea floating around of a DVC in a moderate as well. In regards to the parks, its funny how quick frozen can be implemented (maybe not thought all the way through), but how long it takes to get the idea of starwars land or pandora off the ground

No, no, no. They don't NEED people in those units, they just NEED people to buy them. There is a huge difference.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Let's not get crazy here. There are tons and tons of loyal guests who do not post here and who are happy with the new system. This happens with a lot of active online communities where because a small group has similar feelings they believe that EVERYONE feels that way, which is simply not the case.

I didn't say that all loyal repeat customers post in online forums. I said that our opinions are representative of the opinion of the most loyal guests. In other words, it is safe to assume that the majority opinion here offers a good representation of the feelings of the most loyal repeat customers.

I resent it when some people want to pretend that we are just a bunch of kooks that Disney should just tune out. It's well known that Disney insiders read theme park message boards. Would they do that if we were just some kind of tiny, irrelevant clique?

We discussed this at length in a thread several months ago. It was about the 80/20 rule (also known as the Pareto Principle). As it applies to business, it is a rule of thumb which states that 80% of a company's sales come from 20% of its clients. Obviously, in different industries it could be 85/15, or 75/25, or other specific figures. The point is that a bulk of a company's sales come from a core of loyal customers, and there's no reason to think that the theme park industry is any different.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Oh, I disagree, and I disagree whole heartedly. Not only do I think they can afford to lose us, I think they'd do so happily. I think we're the biggest pains in their rear ends and the demographic they least want in their parks. We're vocal, we compare and complain. We know the tricks and cheats, we know how to work the system to the best of it's limited ability. We tell people about the "good old days". We don't spend $1000 every trip on souvineers. We skip every attraction that isn't worth the wait, because we know it isn't, and we clog up the queues for the best ones. Some of us take all of the FP+ reservations at 12:00.45 am on the dot, leaving the rest of us out. Bottom line, we don't equate the biggest bang for their buck.

Now I'm sure someone reading this is saying, "but, I'm a DVC owner, they need me." Not so much, my friends. They don't need YOU, they need your money, which they have. They have your exorbitant down payment, and their contractually guaranteed money from you, regardless of if you ever step foot on their property ever again.

Annual pass holders, they don't really need you either, they got their ridiculous annual fee already. If they needed you, you'd get a lot better perks than you currently do, especially when it comes to FP. Local AP holders are 2nd class citizens.

Read my post above. There's no way in hell they can afford to lose the 20%. They've just been taking us for granted, assuming with great arrogance that we will always keep coming back at the same rate. I don't think it ever occurred to them that FP+ would cost them some repeat business. Why should they? They're Disney, sitting on top of a multi-billion dollar media empire. When you're on top, it's hard to imagine ending up anywhere else.

I think it's some combination of math, science & hubris. I think there's more of the last ingredient than a lot of folks here do.

Indeed.

 

[kbelle8995]

Did you use legacy FP? If so, didn't a specified return time require some attention to time and place? The thing I hated most about FP is that I couldn't choose the return time. Sometimes it would have been better to have a return time of 2 hours as opposed to 55 minutes

I have FP- at least you had an option on how many you had. You could just get one if you wanted or more and then you could do what you wanted.

With the FP+ system it seems that you have to pick three. So far I can't find a way around this. And it's three at a certain time of day usually very close together. I guess you could change when you get there. But still it's a pain.

As someone from Florida we tour a little differently. Sometimes it's just a quick run, sometimes it's a day, sometimes it's a long weekend. So you don't do everything everytime. Plus WDW has one plus if you are from Florida, NO AIRPLANES. That is a big cost of a trip.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

How much of this "turned off" feeling is simply naturally growing tired of something that once had greater appeal? It happens in all facets of life, in all walks of life. People simply gravitate in different directions as life's circumstances change. Disney is probably no different.

Yes, that is us, to a point.

The flip of that is that attractions like the conservation movie in the Land (does anyone even know this attraction?) was barely worth sleeping through when it was new. The film in Epcot's France, features outfits from the 1980's. (and last time I went, also put at least half the audience to sleep). It would be a blip in WDW budget to replace both films with something fresh.

I could go on, I used to love Living with the Land, when it had live CM's who modified the tour a little each trip. Now, it's pretty dated.

Captain Eo's return was fine for a few months. Now it's just lame they can't replace it.

There are countless simple, inexpensive things Disney could do that would make the parks fresh. I mean how hard would it be to remodel the volcano room in Buzz? And really, would it blow the budget to update the shooters. MIB is hardly new, and the shooters it has are WAY better.

They may know that but they also need to know that people will do the opposite. I've told many people not to bother going to DW until they get this mess straightened out, friends and family and co-workers.

I've had the same experience with my extended family. We've had many WDW trips together. Much of the trip was about family time, not the attractions/dining per say.

Still, we just want to be able to eat when we're hungry. Dining at WDW is dumb. They don't have restaurants, they have a dining factory...cramming more folks in faster and faster, squeezing ever higher profits. Guests should feel like guests, not cows herded into the slaughter house.

I can't imagine enjoying a trip to WDW with my extended family under the current FP and ADR policies.

It's too much effort, too much risk, and not enough reward to bother.

 

[OtherScott]

I didn't say that all loyal repeat customers post in online forums. I said that our opinions are representative of the opinion of the most loyal guests. In other words, it is safe to assume that the majority opinion here offers a good representation of the feelings of the most loyal repeat customers.

I resent it when some people want to pretend that we are just a bunch of kooks that Disney should just tune out. It's well known that Disney insiders read theme park message boards. Would they do that if we were just some kind of tiny, irrelevant clique?

We discussed this at length in a thread several months ago. It was about the 80/20 rule (also known as the Pareto Principle). As it applies to business, it is a rule of thumb which states that 80% of a company's sales come from 20% of its clients. Obviously, in different industries it could be 85/15, or 75/25, or other specific figures. The point is that a bulk of a company's sales come from a core of loyal customers, and there's no reason to think that the theme park industry is any different.

Isn't that the argument - that Disney is tuning you out?

 

[FLchick415]

Right there with you. Been AP holder for 20 years and been going long before that.
As a Floridian and being required to plan so much now Is too much. We went down to Seasonal passes, did not renew our TIW and purchased US APs. Will be spending a long weekend at their new hotel which is cheaper and enjoying the new HP. Have always been WDW homers and we say we just cant believe how the last few years have just turned us off.
* Tried the FP+ and felt like all we did was look at our watch, so we didnt miss our time.
* Refuse to get the band, some of us are allergic to the band then add on the heat and it just doesnt work for us.
* Feel like we just cant do a spur of the moment trip because there is too much planning required now. Too many reservations.
* Used to never leave property for meals and now cant get in or not impressed with the menu choices. We feel alot of the menus are the same offerings. EC seems to be the exception
* The way they have handled DTD, the parking and construction. We always went there but will avoid it until Fall 2015. Hate the parking fee they are adding!!!
* Seems like they are nickel and diming you more on everything. Which used to be my big complaint about US.

I keep seeing people say that there's going to be a parking fee at DTD, but where is that information coming from? The only parking fees I've seen are going to be for Valet.

 

[OtherScott]

I have FP- at least you had an option on how many you had. You could just get one if you wanted or more and then you could do what you wanted.

I'm sorry, but legacy is always presented as being this simple - but it wasn't.

When you went to pull your first FP, you only knew the return time upon arrival at the attraction. That return time might be 20 minutes or 4 hours.

Obviously the former didn't present much a consideration, but the latter did.

I liked it, because I knew the parks like the back of my hand and was a quick study on how long it took to go other places, do other things.

But many don't, so they passed on it completely.

 

[Praying Colonel]

Oh, I disagree, and I disagree whole heartedly. Not only do I think they can afford to lose us, I think they'd do so happily. I think we're the biggest pains in their rear ends and the demographic they least want in their parks. We're vocal, we compare and complain. We know the tricks and cheats, we know how to work the system to the best of it's limited ability. We tell people about the "good old days". We don't spend $1000 every trip on souvineers. We skip every attraction that isn't worth the wait, because we know it isn't, and we clog up the queues for the best ones. Some of us take all of the FP+ reservations at 12:00.45 am on the dot, leaving the rest of us out. Bottom line, we don't equate the biggest bang for their buck.

Now I'm sure someone reading this is saying, "but, I'm a DVC owner, they need me." Not so much, my friends. They don't need YOU, they need your money, which they have. They have your exorbitant down payment, and their contractually guaranteed money from you, regardless of if you ever step foot on their property ever again.

Annual pass holders, they don't really need you either, they got their ridiculous annual fee already. If they needed you, you'd get a lot better perks than you currently do, especially when it comes to FP. Local AP holders are 2nd class citizens.

Yep. To paraphrase Red from the "Shawshank Redemption," I doubt Disney will throw up any roadblocks to stop me from leaving. They'd rather my offsite-staying, meal-splitting, Tables-in-Wonderland-using, FP+ power-user-trick-knowing, no-souvenir-buying behind get on down the road and make room for some unsuspecting family on their 1st visit who'll be satisfied with what Disney trots out these days as a magical experience.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Isn't that the argument - that Disney is tuning you out?

If they choose to tune us out, that would be a huge mistake. That's all I'm saying. And the reaction to FP+ should tell them a lot about what we want, i.e. excellent new attractions and the replacement of old, outdated, unpopular ones.

If they fast track Star Wars Land, that probably means that they listened.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Yep. To paraphrase Red from the "Shawshank Redemption," I doubt Disney will throw up any roadblocks to stop me from leaving. They'd rather my offsite-staying, meal-splitting, Tables-in-Wonderland-using, FP+ power-user-trick-knowing, no-souvenir-buying behind get on down the road and make room for some unsuspecting family on their 1st visit who'll be satisfied with what Disney trots out these days as a magical experience.

But you keep coming back. That proverbial first timer family probably won't.

I think it's far more likely that they want to keep the repeat business, while getting just as many, or more, first timers. Every additional guest represents $$. Why would they want to lose anyone at all? In the long run, they probably make at least as much money from a frugal but frequent guest, as they do from a family that spends a lot on souvenirs but only comes back once every 5-10 years -- if ever.

As I said earlier, they most likely assumed that their moves could never backfire, just because they're Disney. Hubris, ladies and gentlemen. Just hubris.

 

[OtherScott]

If they choose to do tune us out, that would be a huge mistake. That's all I'm saying. And the reaction to FP+ should tell them a lot about what we want, i.e. excellent new attractions and the replacement of old, outdated, unpopular ones.

What new attractions would you build (specifics matter), where would you build them, what would you replace, and how many current and potential guests agree?

Rhetorical, of course, because Disney spends millions on this thought process annually.