Investments

I do. :(



I am sorry for what you have been through. How did you manage financially when all of your funds disappeared? Can you share some lessons learned?

I can see it happening here. We are printing, borrowing, and spending money faster than it's legitimately being made. It isn't sustainable. There is chatter of the US losing our AAA rating, which will grossly effect our economic status. I think we are teetering on the brink. :sad2:

Iceland went from AAA to this in a few months:

Ratings of Icelandic Treasury bonds: Foreign currency

Moody's Investors Service Nov. 2009
Affirmed:Baa3
Short term:P-3
Outlook: Stable

Standard & Poor's Jan. 2010
Affirmed: BBB-
Short term: A-3
Outlook:Negative

Fitch Jan. 2010
Affirmed:BB+
Short term: B
Outlook: Negative


Ratings of Icelandic Treasury bonds: Domestic currency

Moody's Investors Service Nov. 2009
Affirmed: Baa3
Short term: P-3
Outlook: Stable


Our world came crashing down when we lost our stock. Most of it were investments made with my inheritance (my mother died in 2002). We had just built a house and I was just working part time. We have 5 children and after having struggled financially through our studies (our first was born when I was 16) we were finally financially stable and able to provide our children with a great lifestyle, including lots of extra curricular activities.

In a matter of days we went from that, to fighting to save our house. Our currency plummeted and since many people, including my husband (for his business) had loans in foreign currencies it affected us tremendously. Loans have doubled to tripled, tens of thousands (this is an economy of only 300.000 people) have lost their jobs, food prices have skyrocketed (almost everything we eat is imported).

Luckily the government made some incentives that have helped us out, such as "freezing" mortgages and car loans and offering people to turn them into longer loans, meaning they´ll maybe pay them off over 30 yrs.

To be honest, it feels as if we´re screwed. Don´t get me wrong though, I still feel very lucky compared to many others. I still have my job, my husband is fighting to save his company (he had invested in some property and taken foreign loans, which now are sky high and no renters to be found) and we have managed to save our house. We might even be taking a holiday with the kids this summer. I feel very privileged for that opportunity.
 
Only thing that has changed is that I have doubled the amount I am putting into my 457...buy low and hope it pays off....I have a pension though so the 457 is just "extra" forthe future.
 
We're buying more mutual funds shares than normal....get'em while their cheap.

I have about 25 years until retirement so Im not that concerned.....yet!
 
Yes, all our investments were in stock and most of them in the Icelandic banks. In a matter of 7 days it all disappeared. There were "only" 3 big banks in Iceland at that time and they all went bankrupt and were nationalized in a matter of days in October 2008. It turned out the banks were 10 times bigger than Iceland´s GDP.

This is a good example of why diversification and proper asset allocation is the key to whether markets like we had on '08. It doesn't mean you will not lose money but your losses can be minimized and regained more quickly. I know a lot of people that have the majority of their money in company stock, yet if that company fails or even reports lower profits, etc. and the stock value decreases, you can lose most, if not all, of your money overnight.
 

I'm actually ok with my retirement choices. Considering most is in Disney, I don't think they're going to fall under any time soon. And I've seen them rise over the past year or so to a decent profit from the original amount invested. Of course I've got years and years to worry about this stuff later.

As great of a company as Disney is, I wouldn't trust too much of my retirement money to it. Diversify. It's safer. I had friends that worked at Enron years ago. Believe it or not, to the typical guy in IT there, it seemed like a great, safe company. One of them had virtually all of his retirement money there. Now it is gone.

I was fairly heavily overweighted in US stocks until I hit 40. At that point, I started focusing on my asset allocation. I shifted money into international stocks, bonds, and TIPS. I also "invested" in my house by paying it off.

My philosophy is to keep investment costs low by investing primarily in index funds and to focus more on my asset allocation than on stock picking or market timing.

I have made one significant change because of the market decline. Since my mid-20s, I've been an over-saver. I liked the notion of having a lot more money to spend "someday." The market decline has made me realize that there are no guarantees about that "someday." As a consequence, I still save enough to meet my mid-term and long-term needs, but I'm spending more money here and now. I'm balancing my portfolio across "time" now.
 
Losing our AAA status is years, maybe even decades away. It will happen though, that is a near certainty.

And I highly suggest that before it does happen, you have a basket of international currencies (not euros) so when the dollar becomes worthless you are all protected.

If you have a brokerage account at Interactive Brokers, you can convert your US Dollars to various international currencies and then invest with your currencies.

I've started doing this small and will continue to do so over the next decade until I see signs of a President and Congress that actually have a clue what's going on.

I don't know. I think it depends on what source you read. I've read if the variables don't change it could happen much sooner.

Uncle Sam Could Risk AAA Status As Early As 2012


What does it take to risk losing your triple-A status? For Moody's, your AAA-rating starts to become an issue once interest payments
reach 10% of your revenue.


Unfortunately, given rising debts and falling tax revenues, the US could hit this level as soon as 2012. While Moody's has recently stated that America's AAA isn't at risk, they have definitely started to give the US some polite nudging.

WSJ: In its report Wednesday, Moody's singled out the U.S. and the U.K. as two countries that "have lost altitude" among those with triple-A ratings, but noted they remain in the group of "resilient" economies, better placed to keep their ratings intact than Spain, which it called "vulnerable."

"Although highly unlikely, it's conceivable that a large and wealthy economy could lose its Aaa rating if it were to experience a material and irreversible deterioration in its debt conditions over the next five years or so, following the fate of Japan in the 1990s," said Pierre Cailleteau, managing director of Moody's Sovereign Risk Group.

Given the higher interest costs that would come with a ratings downgrade, hopefully the risk of losing triple-A status alone will spur increased fiscal responsibility. If this seems like a pipe dream, then maybe the ratings agencies can stretch their criteria just one more time for old times’ sake.

And if they don't, well, we hope they remember their privileged regulatory status...

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-debt-could-risk-aaa-status-as-early-as-2012-2009-9

Does loss of Triple-A rating matter?

Now that General Electric and Berkshire Hathaway have lost their Triple-A credit ratings, only five U.S. companies are left with that status. With fewer companies standing at the top, what does losing an A really mean? Jeremy Hobson reports.


TEXT OF STORY

Kai Ryssdal: Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway holding company has gotten a financial poke in the eye. It lost its AAA credit rating today. The downgrade from Fitch -- that's one of the three big credit rating agencies -- leaves Berkshire at what's called AA plus. That means it has a slightly higher risk of defaulting on its debt than before. The decision by Fitch came just hours after S&P did the same thing to General Electric. It is now at AA plus as well. And that means each company will have to pay more to borrow money -- not a good thing in a time of tight credit. Here's Marketplace's Jeremy Hobson with more on rating deflation.

Jeremy Hobson: So, what does it mean to be AAA? It's kind of like the way the credit card companies look at you if you've got a great FICO score.

Nicki Riccio: You are going to pay back your debt without any doubt.

Nick Riccio is managing director in corporate ratings at Standard and Poors. He says the number of companies that can pay back their debt without any doubt has been falling for years.

Riccio: There are five left. Alright? At one time that number was about 32, but over the last couple of decades, we've been kind of sliding a little bit.

More than a little bit. Riccio says the vast majority of American companies are rated junk these days. Gerald Epstein is an economist at the University of Massachusetts. He says with these downgrades, the rating agencies are just stating the obvious.

Gerald Epstein: Anybody who looks carefully at what's going on in the financial markets knows that Berkshire Hathaway is -- it has some investments that are in trouble. You don't really need the credit rating agencies to tell you that.

Epstein says agencies like S&P lost his confidence when they failed to rate mortgage backed bonds correctly. He says their ratings on companies are more reliable. But he says they're not quick enough on the draw.

Epstein: They really in a sense contribute to the business cycle by the way that they do these ratings. I would prefer to see them do ratings in a much more long-term kind of way, rather than go up with the cycle and being over-pessimistic on the way down.

Epstein says until the rating agencies get more transparent about the way they do business, that extra A in the rating doesn't mean much.

In New York, I'm Jeremy Hobson for Marketplace.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/03/13/pm_aaa/

----------------------

I am very concerned about personal finance in these uncertain times. I want to thank everyone for their input. It's nice having a civil discussion. :)
 
What will the affects of losing the AAA rating? Higher interest rates on loans is the one thing I understood. That when the USA borrows money, it will be much more difficult to pay it back, right? It is times like this that I am so glad I didn't have children. So sad.

I'm no financial expert, but I see inflation on our horizon.

ETA- I think that will be just one of the dominoes falling.
 
Iceland went from AAA to this in a few months:

Ratings of Icelandic Treasury bonds: Foreign currency

Moody's Investors Service Nov. 2009
Affirmed:Baa3
Short term:P-3
Outlook: Stable

Standard & Poor's Jan. 2010
Affirmed: BBB-
Short term: A-3
Outlook:Negative

Fitch Jan. 2010
Affirmed:BB+
Short term: B
Outlook: Negative


Ratings of Icelandic Treasury bonds: Domestic currency

Moody's Investors Service Nov. 2009
Affirmed: Baa3
Short term: P-3
Outlook: Stable


Our world came crashing down when we lost our stock. Most of it were investments made with my inheritance (my mother died in 2002). We had just built a house and I was just working part time. We have 5 children and after having struggled financially through our studies (our first was born when I was 16) we were finally financially stable and able to provide our children with a great lifestyle, including lots of extra curricular activities.

In a matter of days we went from that, to fighting to save our house. Our currency plummeted and since many people, including my husband (for his business) had loans in foreign currencies it affected us tremendously. Loans have doubled to tripled, tens of thousands (this is an economy of only 300.000 people) have lost their jobs, food prices have skyrocketed (almost everything we eat is imported).

Luckily the government made some incentives that have helped us out, such as "freezing" mortgages and car loans and offering people to turn them into longer loans, meaning they´ll maybe pay them off over 30 yrs.

To be honest, it feels as if we´re screwed. Don´t get me wrong though, I still feel very lucky compared to many others. I still have my job, my husband is fighting to save his company (he had invested in some property and taken foreign loans, which now are sky high and no renters to be found) and we have managed to save our house. We might even be taking a holiday with the kids this summer. I feel very privileged for that opportunity.

How did you guys make it from day to day with the currency devalued and the food prices soaring? What did you do?

I'm sure you did/do feel screwed. :(
 
I'm no financial expert, but I see inflation on our horizon.

ETA- I think that will be just one of the dominoes falling.

Which then leads you back to the diversification issue, when inflation goes up, bond prices go down so that is a good time to buy bonds but if you bought bonds when the price was high and you are holding them when prices drop, you lose money on them (or they can be called early). Usually when the bond market is good the stock market is bad and vice versa. Then you will find as inflation goes up, so does interest rates so those buying homes and investment properties now at really low interest rates (and prices) are doing really well. By taking everything out of the stock market and putting it into fixed income you are actually subjecting yourself to MORE risk in the long run vs having some money in everything (even an 80/20 bond to stock mix is less risky then 100% bonds). With fixed accounts, if your rate is at about 1.5% , which is pretty common now, and inflation goes up to 5-6% you are losing money because of inflation.
 
Referencing the comment about the FDIC. It was created to give people confidence in the banks during the Great Depression. It does not have the money to reimburse all depositors dollar for dollar if massive bank failures should occeur. Hence the need for the socialist Obama bailouts. There was really no choice.
 
Iceland went from AAA to this in a few months:

Ratings of Icelandic Treasury bonds: Foreign currency

Moody's Investors Service Nov. 2009
Affirmed:Baa3
Short term:P-3
Outlook: Stable

Standard & Poor's Jan. 2010
Affirmed: BBB-
Short term: A-3
Outlook:Negative

Fitch Jan. 2010
Affirmed:BB+
Short term: B
Outlook: Negative


Ratings of Icelandic Treasury bonds: Domestic currency

Moody's Investors Service Nov. 2009
Affirmed: Baa3
Short term: P-3
Outlook: Stable


Our world came crashing down when we lost our stock. Most of it were investments made with my inheritance (my mother died in 2002). We had just built a house and I was just working part time. We have 5 children and after having struggled financially through our studies (our first was born when I was 16) we were finally financially stable and able to provide our children with a great lifestyle, including lots of extra curricular activities.

In a matter of days we went from that, to fighting to save our house. Our currency plummeted and since many people, including my husband (for his business) had loans in foreign currencies it affected us tremendously. Loans have doubled to tripled, tens of thousands (this is an economy of only 300.000 people) have lost their jobs, food prices have skyrocketed (almost everything we eat is imported).

Luckily the government made some incentives that have helped us out, such as "freezing" mortgages and car loans and offering people to turn them into longer loans, meaning they´ll maybe pay them off over 30 yrs.

To be honest, it feels as if we´re screwed. Don´t get me wrong though, I still feel very lucky compared to many others. I still have my job, my husband is fighting to save his company (he had invested in some property and taken foreign loans, which now are sky high and no renters to be found) and we have managed to save our house. We might even be taking a holiday with the kids this summer. I feel very privileged for that opportunity.

You have been dealt a lousy hand, that's for sure. But you sound like you and your husband will do well, no matter what. I hope everything turns around for you soon.:hug:

As great of a company as Disney is, I wouldn't trust too much of my retirement money to it. Diversify. It's safer. I had friends that worked at Enron years ago. Believe it or not, to the typical guy in IT there, it seemed like a great, safe company. One of them had virtually all of his retirement money there. Now it is gone.

I was fairly heavily overweighted in US stocks until I hit 40. At that point, I started focusing on my asset allocation. I shifted money into international stocks, bonds, and TIPS. I also "invested" in my house by paying it off.

My philosophy is to keep investment costs low by investing primarily in index funds and to focus more on my asset allocation than on stock picking or market timing.

I have made one significant change because of the market decline. Since my mid-20s, I've been an over-saver. I liked the notion of having a lot more money to spend "someday." The market decline has made me realize that there are no guarantees about that "someday." As a consequence, I still save enough to meet my mid-term and long-term needs, but I'm spending more money here and now. I'm balancing my portfolio across "time" now.

I have a friend, in her mid 30's not married and no children. She works as much overtime as possible, lives with the absolute bare minimum, her house is 100% paid for and saves every penny she can. I wish she would learn the same lesson you did, soon!

Which then leads you back to the diversification issue, when inflation goes up, bond prices go down so that is a good time to buy bonds but if you bought bonds when the price was high and you are holding them when prices drop, you lose money on them (or they can be called early). Usually when the bond market is good the stock market is bad and vice versa. Then you will find as inflation goes up, so does interest rates so those buying homes and investment properties now at really low interest rates (and prices) are doing really well. By taking everything out of the stock market and putting it into fixed income you are actually subjecting yourself to MORE risk in the long run vs having some money in everything (even an 80/20 bond to stock mix is less risky then 100% bonds). With fixed accounts, if your rate is at about 1.5% , which is pretty common now, and inflation goes up to 5-6% you are losing money because of inflation.

Interesting.....

Referencing the comment about the FDIC. It was created to give people confidence in the banks during the Great Depression. It does not have the money to reimburse all depositors dollar for dollar if massive bank failures should occeur. Hence the need for the socialist Obama bailouts. There was really no choice.

That makes sense. If they all failed, no way could the FDIC pay everyone.

This has been a civil conversation! Thanks Anne for bringing this up.:goodvibes
 
...
I can see it happening here. We are printing, borrowing, and spending money faster than it's legitimately being made. It isn't sustainable. There is chatter of the US losing our AAA rating, which will grossly effect our economic status. I think we are teetering on the brink. :sad2:

What will the affects of losing the AAA rating? Higher interest rates on loans is the one thing I understood. That when the USA borrows money, it will be much more difficult to pay it back, right? It is times like this that I am so glad I didn't have children. So sad.

I'm no financial expert, but I see inflation on our horizon.

ETA- I think that will be just one of the dominoes falling.


I definitely share your concern about the amount of borrowing that the US federal government is doing. I intent to make it one of the largest issues in deciding how to cast my vote this fall. That said, it's worth reviewing how this borrowing works.

First, there is virtually no risk of the US defaulting on its debts like people fear Greece doing. The difference is that US debts are in US dollars and Greek debts are in Euros. The US can make all the dollars it wants but Greece isn't free to make more Euros. So if the US owes ten trillion dollars, it can create ten trillion dollars right out of thin air to pay its debts.

The problem with the US creating more dollars to pay its debts is that it causes inflation. Every new dollar created makes every existing dollar worth a bit less. Making more dollars doesn't make more goods or services available, so there are more dollars to spend but no more things to spend them on. The result of that is that the increase in the number of dollars results in an increase in prices.

At first glance, it seems inevitable that we'll need to print more dollars and so inflation must be coming. If that is the case, however, then people making long term loans to the government should be demanding high payments to compensate them for that inflation. Why would any sane person loan the government money for 20 years at 5% interest if they think that inflation will be at 10%? When you look at long term bonds yields, you can see that people are loaning the government money at very low rates, so the people making those loans apparently aren't that worried about inflation.

OK, they are worried about inflation, but relative to the other options they have for their money, this seems like the best option to them. If it wasn't, they would put their money elsewhere and the government would have to increase how much interest it pays on its long term borrowing to get people to lend it money.

So how can inflation expectations be low even though our debt, our deficit, and our projected future deficits are so high? Beats me. Maybe US bonds are in a "bubble" and rates will start to climb rapidly. That would be bad because the interest on the debt would skyrocket and that would make reducing the deficit that much harder. Maybe projections for future tax revenue or spending growth are wrong and we'll get our deficits under control. Maybe the collapse of the shadow banking system has reduced leverage so much that we are struggling against deflation and the two forces are reasonably matched right now. I have no idea.

After all that rambling, I'm just saying that the US government will pay its debts, but the dollars it pays them with may be worth a lot less than the dollars today. Smart people with huge amounts of money to lend are lending it to the government at surprisingly (to me) low rates, so they don't seem to expect inflation.

Knowing all that, what should I do? Put my eggs in a lot of different baskets. US stocks index funds so that I own a lot of US companies and can benefit in any climate where they do well. Foreign stock index funds in case the US goes into relative decline. TIPS funds so that I have money that is safe and reasonably protected from inflation. Bonds to give me a reasonably secure return on my income. Money markets so that I have liquid cash ready for emergencies and opportunities.
 
I don't know. I think it depends on what source you read. I've read if the variables don't change it could happen much sooner.

Uncle Sam Could Risk AAA Status As Early As 2012

Before the US can lose their AAA status, the US Dollar needs to be replaced as the World's Reserve Currency. And this will take a long time to do.
 
Before the US can lose their AAA status, the US Dollar needs to be replaced as the World's Reserve Currency. And this will take a long time to do.

I don't think this is true. I think it's actually the other way around... if the US loses AAA status, the pressure to come up with another viable reserve currency will be intense. Of course, countries holding major reserves in US dollars don't want the US to lose AAA status, but I don't think that they could stop this just by saying "wait till we come up with another reserve currency"
 
I don't think this is true. I think it's actually the other way around... if the US loses AAA status, the pressure to come up with another viable reserve currency will be intense. Of course, countries holding major reserves in US dollars don't want the US to lose AAA status, but I don't think that they could stop this just by saying "wait till we come up with another reserve currency"

You would be surprised how much power the world has when they unite. And this would be an issue they would unite on. Countries would lose BILLIONS!!!
 
How did you guys make it from day to day with the currency devalued and the food prices soaring? What did you do?

I'm sure you did/do feel screwed. :(

I was lucky and was able to work more (more than full time). I was also able to take out a student loan since I have in the past year been a full time university student too. The student loan we used to pay off other more expensive loans.
We have also cut back severely on what we spend money on. We gave up cable, I don´t buy the kids clothes unless they really need them, we don´t eat out, try to cut out any extras when grocery shopping, etc. We used to be able to travel overseas 1-2 every year with the kids and maybe 1-2 without them. We go without such luxury now but luckily we´ve managed to keep the kids in all their extra curricular activities. Birthday and Christmas gifts haven´t been big and are now more likely to be things they might need than want. We don´t drive as much as we did, try to use the small car for as much as possible, etc.

I´m grateful that we, as students with children, had lived such a lifestyle before. We knew that we had been just as happy then and that happiness was not measured in money.

This year we feel extremely privileged to be going on a holiday to Spain. We were lucky to get very cheap plane tickets and do a "home exchange" with a Spanish family, so there´s no cost in accommodation or car rental. Living there is quite cheaper than here, so it will be a very cheap holiday. My DH was very ill last autumn and we have been through a lot in the last 2 years and I hope that this time spent together as a family will help us gather strength for the months to come.
 


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