Introducing - The Cleveland Guardians

[wenrob]

I couldn't care less what a baseball team wears on their uniforms, lol.

But there is nothing in the universe that will not bother somebody.

There are also some people who actively search for things to be "offended" by. For some, it's a mission; for others, it's their livelihood.

Florida State University has intermittent problems with some Indian advocates because their nickname is Seminoles. The Seminoles are a revered part of Florida history, and that is the context that led to the selection. It's a sign of respect and admiration.

What those advocates don't realize is that FSU actively sought the advice and approval of the Seminole Tribe of Florida prior to using that name. Not only the name, but the logos and every detail of the depiction was approved by the tribe before implementation. That includes Chief Osceola riding the length of the football field and stabbing his spear into the opponent's end zone. It also includes the "tomahawk chop" and the accompanying chant. Every detail was developed with the tribe, and was approved by the tribe.

I think it was 2-3 years ago, some self-appointed advocate made a fuss, and got the Seminoles in Oklahoma to complain. The Florida Seminoles basically told them to mind their own business.

I don't know about conditions everywhere, but I know locally our Indian populations have much more serious problems on their hands than what players for some billionaire's toy wear on their baseball caps.

They are much more worried about health care, food, adequate housing, employment, alcoholism and drug addiction, etc than what some sports fan wears posing for selfies.

My point was that her grandfather doesn’t speak for the whole Blackfoot Nation or any other Indigenous People. And they can care about more than one thing at a time. Just because it’s not the first thing on their mind doesn’t mean it’s not on their mind.

 

[Kitty 34]

No disrespect to Native Americans; my great great grandmother was full blooded Osage from Oklahoma for what it's worth; but why not name them:

The Cleveland Slots or Jackpots.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

I'm glad they got rid of their old name but I'm not thrilled with the new one.

 

[JimMIA]

My point was that her grandfather doesn’t speak for the whole Blackfoot Nation or any other Indigenous People. And they can care about more than one thing at a time. Just because it’s not the first thing on their mind doesn’t mean it’s not on their mind.

I got your point. Neither does anyone else speak for the whole Blackfoot Nation or any other indigenous people.

Unless there is some recognized tribe speaking out, these self-appointed advocates have no more standing than the other poster's grandfather.

The larger point, though, is that people who care about any group of people would be much more helpful working on the real issues (in many cases crises) affecting those people.

As long as folks focus on silly symbols like baseball caps, the big issues will not be solved. Sure we can all think about more than one thing, but the reality is that people don't focus their work on more than one issue -- and it's usually the easy stuff like baseball caps.

 

[robinb]

I like the new name.

• It has the same number of syllables
• It has the same "dians" ending
• It's named after something really cool, the Guardians of Traffic on the nearby Hope Memorial Bridge
• It's not offensive to Indigenous and Native Peoples.

 

[wenrob]

I got your point. Neither does anyone else speak for the whole Blackfoot Nation or any other indigenous people.

Unless there is some recognized tribe speaking out, these self-appointed advocates have no more standing than the other poster's grandfather.

The larger point, though, is that people who care about any group of people would be much more helpful working on the real issues (in many cases crises) affecting those people.

As long as folks focus on silly symbols like baseball caps, the big issues will not be solved. Sure we can all think about more than one thing, but the reality is that people don't focus their work on more than one issue -- and it's usually the easy stuff like baseball caps.

Again, folks can do both. It’s not an either/or issue. We don’t know what went into this decision but I can guarantee they hired someone much smarter than you or I to weigh the pros and cons of changing the name. In the end it’s not about who is okay with it and who is not. It’s about what the people who own this team felt was right.

 

[JimMIA]

Again, folks can do both. It’s not an either/or issue. We don’t know what went into this decision but I can guarantee they hired someone much smarter than you or I to weigh the pros and cons of changing the name. In the end it’s not about who is okay with it and who is not. It’s about what the people who own this team felt was right.

Well, I don't know or care how "smart" the decision makers are, but you're right that it was their choice to make. And in these situations, "make no waves" is often more important than anything else.

If people outside the organization disagree with the decision, they have the option of not buying tickets and not watching on TV.

But in the end, this "issue" will make no difference in the lives of Native Americans. It's just a baseball cap.

 

[starvenger]

The Cleveland Slots or Jackpots.

This sort of implies that the team has won something in the past 70-odd years.

 

[wenrob]

This sort of implies that the team has won something in the past 70-odd years.

Well they’ve won the hearts of people who can’t help rooting for the underdog. My dad loved them (and the Cubbies) his entire life and found himself heartbroken every year. Never stopped believing, lol.

 

[starvenger]

Well they’ve won the hearts of people who can’t help rooting for the underdog. My dad loved them (and the Cubbies) his entire life and found himself heartbroken every year. Never stopped believing, lol.

Living in the heart of Leafs Nation as I do, I see heartbroken fans every year. Although the Leafs are more underachievers than underdogs.

 

[wenrob]

Well, I don't know or care how "smart" the decision makers are, but you're right that it was their choice to make. And in these situations, "make no waves" is often more important than anything else.

If people outside the organization disagree with the decision, they have the option of not buying tickets and not watching on TV.

But in the end, this "issue" will make no difference in the lives of Native Americans. It's just a baseball cap.

Or they decided it was about time to come into this century.

Maybe not seeing offensive, degrading imagery on a baseball cap *will* make a difference to some. With all due respect that’s the part I don’t get (and what kind of catapulted me into this conversation). It’s blatantly racist imagery. If it was black face with accompanying name would you feel it doesn’t matter?

 

[JimMIA]

Or they decided it was about time to come into this century.

Maybe not seeing offensive, degrading imagery on a baseball cap *will* make a difference to some. With all due respect that’s the part I don’t get (and what kind of catapulted me into this conversation). It’s blatantly racist imagery. If it was black face with accompanying name would you feel it doesn’t matter?

Well, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I just tend to view symbolism as less important, and I think many people fight symbolic battles because the real battles are too difficult.

Personally, I don't see the use of Native American imagery as anything but complimentary. To me, that imagery is an acknowledgement of both the rich cultural and historical importance of native people.

Atlanta using "Brave" as a symbol -- to me, at least -- is nothing but admiration for Indian courage in battle. The word "Indian" is not objectionable to most Native Americans -- in fact, it is a part of many of their official tribal names.

OTOH, if you had a team called "Savages" and it was depicted as one particular race, that would certainly be offensive. In the same way, I can understand people objecting to "Redskins" because that can clearly be considered as racial -- although the context of that name was to indicate that the football team was to be feared, not to criticize any group of people.

But "Indians" doesn't bother me.

 

[nuclearturtle]

Or they decided it was about time to come into this century.

Maybe not seeing offensive, degrading imagery on a baseball cap *will* make a difference to some. With all due respect that’s the part I don’t get (and what kind of catapulted me into this conversation). It’s blatantly racist imagery. If it was black face with accompanying name would you feel it doesn’t matter?

None of it matters... too many people with too much time on their hands and all with fragile egos.... I could care less if any team referenced my ancestral decent... Toughen up !!
All of this woke nonsense is just that nonsense.

 

[penn19]

They can change their name all they want, we still beat them in the 1997 World Series.

Yes! I was living in Florida at the time. I went to one of the games. Game 4? 5? Can’t remember. But it was exciting!

 

[JimMIA]

Yes! I was living in Florida at the time. Game 4? 5? Can’t remember. But it was exciting!

We won the World Series with a walk-off single in the bottom of the 11th by El Nino (Edgar Renteria). Craig Counsel kind of danced in from third and the place went nuts.

Games 1,2, 6, and 7 were played at Dolphins Stadium and we went to all of them. That walk-off was one of the most exciting moments I've ever seen in sports. I was hoarse for a week.

 

[georgina]

This sort of implies that the team has won something in the past 70-odd years.

It implied to me that native Americans are associated with casinos. Not very nice thing to stress.

 

[penn19]

We won the World Series with a walk-off single in the bottom of the 11th by El Nino (Edgar Renteria). Craig Counsel kind of danced in from third and the place went nuts.

Games 1,2, 6, and 7 were played at Dolphins Stadium and we went to all of them. That walk-off was one of the most exciting moments I've ever seen in sports. I was hoarse for a week.

I went to bed during the final game. My husband came in and danced on our bed he was so excited. Good times!

 

[starvenger]

It implied to me that native Americans are associated with casinos. Not very nice thing to stress.

It's not that hard to make that association if you're looking to do so. And we could probably have an entire thread talking about the good and bad of casinos on Native Land.

Regardless, I didn't even think about that when I made my comment, and yeah, you could certainly look at it from your perspective.

 

[JimMIA]

It implied to me that native Americans are associated with casinos. Not very nice thing to stress.

To me, it just implied that Cleveland has a lot of casinos. I don't know if that's true, and if it is true I have no idea who owns casinos in Cleveland.

I also don't know how implying Indians are associated with casinos would be "...not very nice" to say. Some tribes have casinos. So what?

In fact, the Seminole Tribe of Florida owns the entire Hard Rock hospitality group, including their casinos.

And finally, I don't know what @Kitty 34 meant to imply, if anything. Nor would I put words in her mouth.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Well, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I just tend to view symbolism as less important, and I think many people fight symbolic battles because the real battles are too difficult.

Personally, I don't see the use of Native American imagery as anything but complimentary. To me, that imagery is an acknowledgement of both the rich cultural and historical importance of native people.

Atlanta using "Brave" as a symbol -- to me, at least -- is nothing but admiration for Indian courage in battle. The word "Indian" is not objectionable to most Native Americans -- in fact, it is a part of many of their official tribal names.

OTOH, if you had a team called "Savages" and it was depicted as one particular race, that would certainly be offensive. In the same way, I can understand people objecting to "Redskins" because that can clearly be considered as racial -- although the context of that name was to indicate that the football team was to be feared, not to criticize any group of people.

But "Indians" doesn't bother me.

Maybe the symbolism doesn’t bother you because you aren’t in the targeted groups. While we’re all allowed our opinions, when we’re not affected personally by those mascots and team names, our opinions don’t really matter.