Interesting -- diplomats want Bush voted out

[jrydberg]

wvrevy, don't freak out or anything, but you do have some valid points

While there certainly are foreign terrorists coming to Iraq to take their shots, there is also a segment of the Iraqi population who opposes us (there was, after all, a significant minority who benefitted from Saddam's regime and stands to lose a lot by allowing a transition to a democratic state). I'm sure there are also some who honestly are just fighting to get the US out. But I'd bet that's a small minority.

As to labelling people terrorists, true not all who oppose us are terrorists. But those who drive car bombs certainly are. Those who place roadside bombs are. Those who attack Iraqi police stations are. I guess my point is, there are plenty of terrorists there, but they're not all terrorists.

As to unpatriotic, I'm certainly not going to call anyone who voices their honest opinion unpatriotic or say they support terrorism. To do so is ridiculous, IMO.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
If you don't listen to the news how will you know how things have changed? What is new? Especially with the hearings now? Is what you are basing your opinion on, things that happenned in the past? How do you stay current, or informed then?

Please don't misunderstand me. I watch news programs (I do not consider O'Reilly or Limbaugh news programs -- they are opinion programs); I read newspapers (print and online); I check websites, etc. It is quite easy to stay informed today. But one has to be able to separate news from opinion.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by jrydberg
wvrevy, don't freak out or anything, but you do have some valid points

While there certainly are foreign terrorists coming to Iraq to take their shots, there is also a segment of the Iraqi population who opposes us (there was, after all, a significant minority who benefitted from Saddam's regime and stands to lose a lot by allowing a transition to a democratic state). I'm sure there are also some who honestly are just fighting to get the US out. But I'd bet that's a small minority.

As to labelling people terrorists, true not all who oppose us are terrorists. But those who drive car bombs certainly are. Those who place roadside bombs are. Those who attack Iraqi police stations are. I guess my point is, there are plenty of terrorists there, but they're not all terrorists.

As to unpatriotic, I'm certainly not going to call anyone who voices their honest opinion unpatriotic or say they support terrorism. To do so is ridiculous, IMO.

Honestly, I'd be shocked if more than 10% of the forces opposing us in Iraq are from outside of that country. And the people opposing us most strongly at the moment are being led by a shiite cleric - not exactly someone who "benefitted from Saddam's regime".

And yes, I realize that not everyone on the right is labling people as unpatriotic. But it makes me physically ill to see someone post (or hear someone say) that a vote against Bush is a vote for terrorism. As far as I'm concerned, that's about as low as it's possible to get on the political slime scale.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Please don't misunderstand me. I watch news programs (I do not consider O'Reilly or Limbaugh news programs -- they are opinion programs); I read newspapers (print and online); I check websites, etc. It is quite easy to stay informed today. But one has to be able to separate news from opinion.

Why ? The president doesn't After all, he has people to read the news for him....Readily admits that he doesn't read the paper.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Why ? The president doesn't After all, he has people to read the news for him....Readily admits that he doesn't read the paper.

WHY? Just a habit I developed as a child and encouraged by my parents. It really has nothing to do with what President Bush does or doesn't do.

 

[jrydberg]

And yes, I realize that not everyone on the right is labling people as unpatriotic. But it makes me physically ill to see someone post (or hear someone say) that a vote against Bush is a vote for terrorism. As far as I'm concerned, that's about as low as it's possible to get on the political slime scale.

Agreed.

As for the Shiites, I'm not sure it's accurate to say that those opposing us most strongly right now are Shiites. Al Sadr has pretty much thrown his hat into the ring in the political process, and appears determined to have his say in the new Iraq through that process now.

 

[Van Helsing]

how do you know that the Presidents plan won't work unless it's carried thru without caving in to the insurgents

Ohh come of it - have a look at IRAQ over the past year. Do your really think for one minute its working

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Ohh come of it - have a look at IRAQ over the past year. Do your really think for one minute its working

Right ... the coalition was going to walk in, overthrow Saddam and everything would be roses and sunbeams from that point on. All the centuries of internal strife would be forgotten in moments. Everyone from every tribe, group, religion, ethnic background would just embrace everyone else and instant peace would spring up wherever coalition forces set foot.

Welcome to reality VH/jj ... war is not easy, not pretty, not fun. And when you have the situation you have in Iraq, the creation of a power vacuum is going to result in some turmoil. That was inevitable. The fact is they are working toward establishing a new government and a new nation. It won't be easy, but it is working. At least if you are willing to look with an open mind...

 

[jrydberg]

Not to bring things back to reality, but anyone who expected less trouble than this in Iraq was fooling themselves. And yes, I think the administration was fooling themselves with the rosy scenario. I did a lot of contingency planning involving these scenarios. None of this should have been a surprise. But the reality is a lot of this was going to occur regardless. It's a messy business. That's not to say there haven't been serious mistakes made or that we shouldn't try to improve... but no amount of planning would have made this a smooth transition IMO.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Right ... the coalition was going to walk in, overthrow Saddam and everything would be roses and sunbeams from that point on. All the centuries of internal strife would be forgotten in moments. Everyone from every tribe, group, religion, ethnic background would just embrace everyone else and instant peace would spring up wherever coalition forces set foot.

I think you just outlined the Bush plan for post-war Iraq

Sorry...what was your point again ?

 

[Van Helsing]

Welcome to reality VH/jj ... war is not easy, not pretty, not fun.

Ohh we all know that - day after day after day more deaths. The Abuses of POW's.

But there has to be a time when you say to yourself we've got to try something different or we're not wanted and its time to go home.

I think you just outlined the Bush plan for post-war Iraq

Yes

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Ohh we all know that - day after day after day more deaths. The Abuses of POW's.

How convenient for you to forget the beheading of an American, the bombing and abuse of 4 American contractors, the kidnapping of several Americans. Yeah, these aren't so important. What's important is "The Abuses of POW's".

But there has to be a time when you say to yourself we've got to try something different or we're not wanted and its time to go home.

Great plan. Give up, pull out, go home.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Please don't misunderstand me. I watch news programs (I do not consider O'Reilly or Limbaugh news programs -- they are opinion programs); I read newspapers (print and online); I check websites, etc. It is quite easy to stay informed today. But one has to be able to separate news from opinion.

Yes, but it's also interesting to get the public response too. It's fun and sometimes informative to hear the callers, or emailers opinions too. We also discussed on here how all news sources are considered biased anyway, so the more that I listen too, the better a picture I can get. Thats kind of why I like to hear it from all sides.

One view that bothers me a lot, is that some people will label you "unpatriotic" if you disagree with the current administration. This is so wrong, and does a disservice to everyone. I don't mean you Steve, but I hear it all the time and it just drives me nuts.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
How convenient for you to forget the beheading of an American, the bombing and abuse of 4 American contractors, the kidnapping of several Americans. Yeah, these aren't so important. What's important is "The Abuses of POW's". Great plan. Give up, pull out, go home.

1 - No, the abuses of Iraqi POW's are not more important than the deaths of Americans. It was more SHOCKING (and, therefore, got more news coverage), simply because we expect that kind of thing out of the enemy, not our own troops. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

2 - Unfortunately, the time to pull out of Iraq is long past. We have no choice now but to stay in the country and help them get back to some semblance of stability. However, doing so requires planning, and aside from this ceremonial handover of soveriegnty (but we'll be staying wether you like it or not), I've seen no signs of anything of the sort from this administration, and little understanding of the complexities involved. We had our choice about invading, and chose wrongly. Now that we're there, we have to finish the job.

But to do so correctly, make sure you vote Kerry in November

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
One view that bothers me a lot, is that some people will label you "unpatriotic" if you disagree with the current administration. This is so wrong, and does a disservice to everyone. I don't mean you Steve, but I hear it all the time and it just drives me nuts.

That makes me crazy, too. I may disagree with someone and I may disagree with them intensely. But I'd never call into question someone's patriotism just because they disagreed with the administration in the WH. That's just wrong.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
1 - No, the abuses of Iraqi POW's are not more important than the deaths of Americans. It was more SHOCKING (and, therefore, got more news coverage), simply because we expect that kind of thing out of the enemy, not our own troops. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

I do not find it more SHOCKING. I don't expect civilized people to act that way at all. Expecting that kind of behavior from someone shows a very low regard for those people -- JMO.

2 - Unfortunately, the time to pull out of Iraq is long past. We have no choice now but to stay in the country and help them get back to some semblance of stability. However, doing so requires planning, and aside from this ceremonial handover of soveriegnty (but we'll be staying wether you like it or not), I've seen no signs of anything of the sort from this administration, and little understanding of the complexities involved. We had our choice about invading, and chose wrongly. Now that we're there, we have to finish the job.

Wowzers ... you mean you've missed all the news reports about the handover of sovereignty on June 30th? "No signs from this administration?" I know WV is "wild and wonderful", but you do at least get TV and radio signals there, right?

But to do so correctly, make sure you vote Kerry in November

Don't think so. Even if Sen. Kerry were the ONLY candidate on the ballot, I'd spend the time to write in someone else -- ANYONE ELSE.

 

[jrydberg]

But to do so correctly, make sure you vote Kerry in November

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but doesn't Kerry's plan basically involve Bush's plan plus an apology for Bush's actions?

 

[Van Helsing]

Great plan G Bush has - what is it again 5 points or something like that.

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Ohh we all know that - day after day after day more deaths. The Abuses of POW's.

But there has to be a time when you say to yourself we've got to try something different or we're not wanted and its time to go home.



Yes

we have been trying different things,,they have been adjusting the plans along the way..


I would never want you on a sports team of mine, whether it be half time or the seventh inning stretch..it's quite obvious that if your team was losing you would take your ball and go home...rather than giving 100% and staying 'till the game was over....


I'm no military expert, but I can't recall any war that was ever won. without loss of life or loss of a few battles here and there..


as far as going home because we're not wanted,,, that would have worked wonders in the past....I'm pretty sure Hitler didn't want us in Europe..I guess we should have gone home....

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
I do not find it more SHOCKING. I don't expect civilized people to act that way at all. Expecting that kind of behavior from someone shows a very low regard for those people -- JMO.

Well, yes, I do expect that kind of behavior out of terrorists and thugs that want to rule by terror....So sue me I didn't say I expected it out of Muslims, or Iraqis, or anything else...just our ACTUAL enemies.

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Wowzers ... you mean you've missed all the news reports about the handover of sovereignty on June 30th? "No signs from this administration?" I know WV is "wild and wonderful", but you do at least get TV and radio signals there, right?

Umm, I kinda mentioned the handover....Did you miss that part ? I mean, they do have reading comprehension classes where you live, right

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Don't think so. Even if Sen. Kerry were the ONLY candidate on the ballot, I'd spend the time to write in someone else -- ANYONE ELSE.

Which is exactly how I feel about Dubya, so I understand exactly how you feel.