Important changes to Rent/Trade Posting Rules

[jarrandale]

Thank you!

 

[dusten]

Wow, after a couple hours of reading, I got my mind wrapped around this new policy. Definitely more than I wanted to know as a points renter. Thank you to the admins/mods for taking the time to respond to comments on this issue. Having rented points here before using a "reservation wanted" post it seems frustrating because I had such a good experience renting (from Murphyjh). I felt like I really needed to understand why what I did previously was now banned. From the perspective of a DVC owner it makes sense to protect your investment.

 

[rthornton]

I am new to both DIS and the whole "points rental" process and first read about it in "The Ultimate Disney World Savings Guide" (by Beth Haworth). I have no problem with the DIS rules, I am just trying to get up to the minimum number of posts so that I can start interacting with DVC members.

 

[aggiemullins]

sasmmb's got a great idea here. I like that alot.

I also happen to feel in terms of determining fair market value for points, having nobody request points distorts the market value (pushes the price down). Someone posted a few pages ago saying that removing RW threads would help push up the prices - sorry but that's wrong!! A natural economic balance that determines correct price can only be achieved if both sides participate. Econ 101. If only sellers post prices then they bid down the prices to gain buyers.

The R/T board has definitely shifted to a Buyer's Market since the RW's were removed. The RW threads (along with the Pnts for Rent threads) served as a Virtual Storefront Door. If there were more customers coming through the door then sellers, then you got a decent idea of how much to ask or how much you were going to pay. Now that the RW threads are gone, the R/T board has the perception that it's nothing but desperate sellers.

You can say it's the economy, but even a year ago when the economy was at it's worst, $12 was still a decent price. 3 years ago I was able to sell my points for $14 all day long. Forgive me for being bold, but there's evidence that $9 is starting to become the new norm. And this doesn't take into account the firesales.

I very much appreciate what you guys (the moderators) do for us and how you've built IMHO the best site on the web for all things Disney, but I also disagree with your decision on Reservations Wanted. Between the eroding of the prices and the added difficulties in the renting of or renting out points, the ends simply do not justify the means. It's like using a nuclear bomb to kill a mosquito. If that's what it takes to kill it, then maybe it just might be better to let it live.

 

[CarolMN]

The R/T board has definitely shifted to a Buyer's Market since the RW's were removed. The RW threads (along with the Pnts for Rent threads) served as a Virtual Storefront Door. If there were more customers coming through the door then sellers, then you got a decent idea of how much to ask or how much you were going to pay. Now that the RW threads are gone, the R/T board has the perception that it's nothing but desperate sellers.

You can say it's the economy, but even a year ago when the economy was at it's worst, $12 was still a decent price. 3 years ago I was able to sell my points for $14 all day long. Forgive me for being bold, but there's evidence that $9 is starting to become the new norm. And this doesn't take into account the firesales.

I very much appreciate what you guys (the moderators) do for us and how you've built IMHO the best site on the web for all things Disney, but I also disagree with your decision on Reservations Wanted. Between the eroding of the prices and the added difficulties in the renting of or renting out points, the ends simply do not justify the means. It's like using a nuclear bomb to kill a mosquito. If that's what it takes to kill it, then maybe it just might be better to let it live.

Everything you say may be true, but none of the objectives for the the DIS R/T Board ever included maximizing rental prices for owners.

The original purpose of the R/T Board was to provide DIS DVC members who occasionally had points they could not use with a way to get some value from them. That's still its purpose today.

The R/T Board was never meant to support spec renting or even frequent renting. We believe the recent changes are in keeping with the original stated purpose of the R/T Board. The DIS continues to provide this service free of charge.

 

[aggiemullins]

Everything you say may be true, but none of the objectives for the the DIS R/T Board ever included maximizing rental prices for owners.

Honestly, I'm trying not to take offense to what you said above. Owners have been at a price disadvantage since shortly after the R/T Board inception and this only further hinders them. I've been a member since 2004 and I can honestly save the average price per point on R/T is still pretty much the same today as it was then. If anything the R/T has held true to maximizing savings to the Buyers.

I apologize if it came off that way, but I don't believe anyone has asked DIS to maximize rental prices for owners. I think you might be misinterpreting what I (and a few others) have said, which is simply that we believe allowing a true free market to exist within the parameters of the DIS rules, is better for the Members then protecting the Members from a few Stealth Spec Renters. By removing RW, it further handicaps the Members and makes it much more difficult and intimidating for the novice renters to jump in.

The original purpose of the R/T Board was to provide DIS DVC members who occasionally had points they could not use with a way to get some value from them. That's still its purpose today.

The key words here being "some value." Prices are closing in on maintenance dues and in many cases go for well below dues prices. While my definition might be different from yours, I would hope that "some value" means not taking a severe dollar loss on your points, especially given todays rack rates and if you planned far enough out to not have to fire sell them.

The R/T Board was never meant to support spec renting or even frequent renting. We believe the recent changes are in keeping with the original stated purpose of the R/T Board.

Having rented out my points only once, I by no means am a frequent renter nor spec renter. I fully support you in trying to rid the Disboards of these people and I would be happy to volunteer my time in purging DIS of these abusers.

However, I think by attempting to rid us of these few bad apples, it is harming us, the DVC Members, worse then it is helping. Isn't the whole purpose of this policy supposed to be for the betterment of the Members?! If what I said in my other post is true, (which you said might be) is it really worth the massive devaluing of everyone's points just to make sure there's a few extra MK View Studio's on Christmas Eve?

I'm sensitive to this issue because I've got an add-on in closing. I've got a heavy heart because the responsible father/provider in me says I should cancel the add-on, keep my money and just rent points in the future because the R/T board is weighted heavily towards the renters and is a much better bargain since R/T has a solid history of never increasing prices.

The DIS continues to provide this service free of charge.

True, but it's in no small part I believe because DIS has generous sponsors who either A) Make money by reselling DVC contracts to people who find renting more expensive then owning or B) Rent other people's points at a premium and keeping the spread. You could call me a fear-monger, but how much more will the price per point drop before these two sponsors find themselves not making as much money as they used to because the bargains are too great on the R/T board?

Even if you hate the idea of renting points period and/or love the new policy, every single one of us became an owner because of the long-term value in DVC. If this policy (regardless of the original intent of the R/T) is accidently and indirectly eroding that value, isn't it more important to protect every Member's long-term value even if it means not fully protecting their right to book a room late and hope that they can get it without the severe off-chance a rogue spec renter is holding it?

Forgive me for speaking my mind. DW is hacked I've spent the whole night writing this! I've never seen anyone argue with a moderator this much, so please don't ban me!

 

[Chuck S]

Honestly, I'm trying not to take offense to what you said above. Owners have been at a price disadvantage since shortly after the R/T Board inception and this only further hinders them. I've been a member since 2004 and I can honestly save the average price per point on R/T is still pretty much the same today as it was then. If anything the R/T has held true to maximizing savings to the Buyers.

I apologize if it came off that way, but I don't believe anyone has asked DIS to maximize rental prices for owners. I think you might be misinterpreting what I (and a few others) have said, which is simply that we believe allowing a true free market to exist within the parameters of the DIS rules, is better for the Members then protecting the Members from a few Stealth Spec Renters. By removing RW, it further handicaps the Members and makes it much more difficult and intimidating for the novice renters to jump in.



The key words here being "some value." Prices are closing in on maintenance dues and in many cases go for well below dues prices. While my definition might be different from yours, I would hope that "some value" means not taking a severe dollar loss on your points, especially given todays rack rates and if you planned far enough out to not have to fire sell them.



Having rented out my points only once, I by no means am a frequent renter nor spec renter. I fully support you in trying to rid the Disboards of these people and I would be happy to volunteer my time in purging DIS of these abusers.

However, I think by attempting to rid us of these few bad apples, it is harming us, the DVC Members, worse then it is helping. Isn't the whole purpose of this policy supposed to be for the betterment of the Members?! If what I said in my other post is true, (which you said might be) is it really worth the massive devaluing of everyone's points just to make sure there's a few extra MK View Studio's on Christmas Eve?

I'm sensitive to this issue because I've got an add-on in closing. I've got a heavy heart because the responsible father/provider in me says I should cancel the add-on, keep my money and just rent points in the future because the R/T board is weighted heavily towards the renters and is a much better bargain since R/T has a solid history of never increasing prices.



True, but it's in no small part I believe because DIS has generous sponsors who either A) Make money by reselling DVC contracts to people who find renting more expensive then owning or B) Rent other people's points at a premium and keeping the spread. You could call me a fear-monger, but how much more will the price per point drop before these two sponsors find themselves not making as much money as they used to because the bargains are too great on the R/T board?

Even if you hate the idea of renting points period and/or love the new policy, every single one of us became an owner because of the long-term value in DVC. If this policy (regardless of the original intent of the R/T) is accidently and indirectly eroding that value, isn't it more important to protect every Member's long-term value even if it means not fully protecting their right to book a room late and hope that they can get it without the severe off-chance a rogue spec renter is holding it?

Forgive me for speaking my mind. DW is hacked I've spent the whole night writing this! I've never seen anyone argue with a moderator this much, so please don't ban me!

Had you seen what we moderators saw as far as the sheer number of persistent spec renters with a complete and total disregard for board rules, you would likely have a different opinion of what erodes value.

If you do not wish to use the DIS R/T Board, no one forces you to do so. You are welcome to offer your points on other sites that allow spec renters to post their reservations, if you personally feel that better enhances the value of your membership.

 

[aggiemullins]

Had you seen what we moderators saw as far as the sheer number of persistent spec renters with a complete and total disregard for board rules, you would likely have a different opinion of what erodes value.

If you do not wish to use the DIS R/T Board, no one forces you to do so. You are welcome to offer your points on other sites that allow spec renters to post their reservations, if you personally feel that better enhances the value of your membership.

That, Sir, may quite possibly be true. As I know there are only a few of you, I really do applaud and appreciate your efforts to rid DIS of the rotten apples who only seek to make the most money by whatever means they can.

As DIS is the only Member home I've known, I wouldn't dream of going anywhere else. I just hope it's worth it and it truly rid us of them. I fear that where there's a will (and money to be made) there's always a way.

I'm still not quite sure how they were using the RW threads, but I hope that in the future if technological advances allow RW to return without interference from spec renters, that DIS will highly consider allowing them to do so.

 

[LisaS]

The R/T board has definitely shifted to a Buyer's Market since the RW's were removed. The RW threads (along with the Pnts for Rent threads) served as a Virtual Storefront Door. If there were more customers coming through the door then sellers, then you got a decent idea of how much to ask or how much you were going to pay. Now that the RW threads are gone, the R/T board has the perception that it's nothing but desperate sellers.

You can say it's the economy, but even a year ago when the economy was at it's worst, $12 was still a decent price. 3 years ago I was able to sell my points for $14 all day long. Forgive me for being bold, but there's evidence that $9 is starting to become the new norm. And this doesn't take into account the firesales.

I very much appreciate what you guys (the moderators) do for us and how you've built IMHO the best site on the web for all things Disney, but I also disagree with your decision on Reservations Wanted. Between the eroding of the prices and the added difficulties in the renting of or renting out points, the ends simply do not justify the means. It's like using a nuclear bomb to kill a mosquito. If that's what it takes to kill it, then maybe it just might be better to let it live.

As one of the Rent/Trade board moderators, I read a lot of R/T board posts so I have a pretty good feel for what has been going on there the last few years. A couple of years ago, I recall the price per point was edging up to the $11-$13 range. At that time there were also many members still offering their points for $10, sparking some heated debates on the other DVC boards about why some members were still willing to rent their points for $10 when dues had risen so much over the years. There were even offers of $8-$9 for distressed points but in general rates were trending higher.

Then the economy tanked. Many members opted to rent out their points instead of using them themselves. The number of DVC members has grown significantly over the past few years and more members means more point renters which increases the pressure on prices as people start undercutting each other, especially if a job loss has made them desperate to get rid of their points.

The economy also reduced the number of people shopping for points and made those who were still doing so more determined than ever to get the best deal possible. Disney was also scrambling to keep hotels full so they started offering great deals ("pay for 4 nights, stay for 7" among others). Renting a reservation from a DVC member isn't so compelling when you can get a good deal directly from Disney with a cancellation policy and no fear of getting scammed. Those who were still shopping on the R/T board seemed to expect members to offer great deals too if they wanted their business. No surprise then that the price per point dropped back to $10 and in some cases even lower for those particularly desperate to unload their points.

All of this happened before we changed the R/T board rules. Has the rule change further depressed rental prices? Perhaps, but I find it hard to believe that the impact is very significant compared to the other things I've listed.

ETA: I don't want my reply to sound like we don't care about your feedback or concerns. We do want people to have a good experience using the R/T board. We discussed eliminating RW threads for months before deciding to go ahead with the change but in the end, we felt we had no other choice.

 

[macleary]

The original purpose of the R/T Board was to provide DIS DVC members who occasionally had points they could not use with a way to get some value from them. That's still its purpose today.

Then why does a particular person (or company apparently) get "Sticky" thread status, trumpting all other everyday common Joe's? I'm referring to "Daddio - Unlimited Points". He gets top billing, even above the FAQ and Rules!! [1], making it difficult for us once-a-year sellers get attention from the renters. I understand paid banner ads, but a sticky thread?? That's ridiculous. It's tricking renters IMO. But hey, he sells his points for $13 and plenty of renters apparently are more than willing to buy from him, so maybe I should be happy his renters are getting used to paying $13.

[1] - Hmm, and the mods complain about us not reading and following the rules? Well then maybe the rules should be #1 top thread??

To the mods: Be careful of implementing too many rules or else you fall into the same trap our big government does everyday by overregulating our society. I know you're just trying to help and that's great, but sometimes it's better to just step back and let things work themselves out on their own. Especially when money is involved, as people have enough common sense to determine on their own what they should pay.

Thanks for your volunteer mod time, I honestly don't know how you have the patience to read hundreds of posts... like mine!

 

[Chuck S]

[1] - Hmm, and the mods complain about us not reading and following the rules? Well then maybe the rules should be #1 top thread??

Sticky threads are like any other thread, which ever one of them is bumped most recently gets top billing.

The sticky threads were in place long before Daddio became a board sponsor, and people still didn't read them, which led to the rule changes.

If you have concerns about a board sponsor, you are welcome to contact admin@wdwinfo.com.

 

[CarolMN]

Honestly, I'm trying not to take offense to what you said above. ....(snip).....Forgive me for speaking my mind. DW is hacked I've spent the whole night writing this! I've never seen anyone argue with a moderator this much, so please don't ban me!

Mike, I was not offended (and doubt any of the others mods were, either). It's OK with me if others do not agree with me. I appreciate hearing other people's' opinions, especially when they are respectfully stated, which yours certainly were. Thanks for taking the time to post. Carol

P.S. Not a good idea to "hack" off the spouse. But you already know that, LOL.

 

[CarolMN]

........

To the mods: Be careful of implementing too many rules or else you fall into the same trap our big government does everyday by overregulating our society. I know you're just trying to help and that's great, but sometimes it's better to just step back and let things work themselves out on their own. Especially when money is involved, as people have enough common sense to determine on their own what they should pay.....

Which is why the DIS takes no position on price per point. That's totally negotiable between the parties. Not getting your point.

 

[rlcerabone]

Beacuse of the few exploting the boards, the rest of of us suffer. i only use it to get rid of excess points that i do not need. i have have to rethink my timeshare.. It very very sad!!!

 

[kbgutknecht]

I was just jumping on here to post a "Reservation Wanted" when I remembered this new rule. While it will be little more work than before, I am aware that NONE of this would be possible if it weren't for the generous volunteering that all of the moderators do. If this is what makes things better for the board and for you, than I am all for it. It's not going to deter me from renting, and I wouldn't be able to rent at all if it weren't for this board.

I'm so thankful for your time, since it allows me to make my son's (an my) Disney dreams a possiblity on our tight budget.

Thanks again, and I'll gladly comply with whatever you ask!

Karen

 

[cdemers024]

Dear Moderator, I currently logged on to post some points and found that my account was on hold because I did not insert a Closed in front of one of my threads. I am sorry about that there was no intent to break the rules. I am still confused howevere on how to do that as I was not able to edit my original Title when I did try and do that. Also, how do I send a PM to a Moderator I cannot seem to find a place to do that. Sorry I am a little older and not as technical maybe as I need to be. Charlie cdemers024@comcast.net

 

[Chuck S]

Dear Moderator, I currently logged on to post some points and found that my account was on hold because I did not insert a Closed in front of one of my threads. I am sorry about that there was no intent to break the rules. I am still confused however on how to do that as I was not able to edit my original Title when I did try and do that. Also, how do I send a PM to a Moderator I cannot seem to find a place to do that. Sorry I am a little older and not as technical maybe as I need to be. Charlie cdemers024@comcast.net

Our database shows only one post made by you on February 23. It was autolocked, and once locked by the system it can not be reopened.

However, one autolock does not prevent you from submitting a new thread. But, because of new rent/Trade posting rules effective in July, you must have 50 or more non-Rent/Trade board posts to have a Points for Rent thread approved. See the new rule in post #4 of this thread.

You currently have only one non-Rent/Trade post. The Rent/Trade board moderators invite you to take 7 to 10 days to browse through the DIS Boards and reply to threads that you find of interest before resubmitting your Rent/Trade thread. Posts must be on topic and contribute to the thread discussion. Posts are reviewed by Rent/Trade moderators. [COLOR=80000]We have declined posts from people who obviously had made short "hit-n-run" type posts solely to reach the required 50 posts, or have posted 50 posts in a short time. So please, no posts like "Great info, thanks!" and no posts that are all smilies/emoticons. [/COLOR]

It is also to your benefit, as we encourage potential renters to review posts made by DVC Owners to get a feel of their general personality and posting style.

Sending a PM to a Rent/Trade Moderator is the same as sending a personal Message to any user. You may send a PM to WebmasterDoc,
CarolMN, LisaS, JimC or me, Chuck S. The DVC R/T Board user name does not accept PMs. It is the user name of our automated processing program, and can only send out PMs, not receive. Also the Caskbill user name can not receive PM. Our friend Bill passed away last year, and his name shows on the moderator list as an honorarium. The PM function for his name has been disabled. Just click on the Private Massages link under your user name in the to right hand corner of any DIS page.

 

[DaraAllen]

I am curious as to why the 30-day rule is in effect. Most true Disney-ites are planners extraordinaire, so why hold us to 30 days? Wouldn't it benefit everyone if something came up and the realization hit that the pre-planned Disney trip might need to be canceled, but I could rent those points out sooner rather than later?

I'm trying to understand the logic to waiting until 30 days and increasing stress on the family holding the ressies. Conversely, the family renting those points would benefit from longer lead time in terms of airline costs.

 

[LisaS]

I am curious as to why the 30-day rule is in effect. Most true Disney-ites are planners extraordinaire, so why hold us to 30 days? Wouldn't it benefit everyone if something came up and the realization hit that the pre-planned Disney trip might need to be canceled, but I could rent those points out sooner rather than later?

I'm trying to understand the logic to waiting until 30 days and increasing stress on the family holding the ressies. Conversely, the family renting those points would benefit from longer lead time in terms of airline costs.

You can offer points for rent (that is to say, offer to make a reservation for someone else using your points) at any time. The 30-day rule applies to renting existing reservations. This restriction is in place to discourage members from tying up inventory by booking a high-demand reservation months in advance in the hopes of selling it to the highest bidder. We allow existing reservations to be offered only within 30 days of check in, when cancelling the reservation would cause the points to go into holding.

 

[DaraAllen]

You can offer points for rent (that is to say, offer to make a reservation for someone else using your points) at any time. The 30-day rule applies to renting existing reservations. This restriction is in place to discourage members from tying up inventory by booking a high-demand reservation months in advance in the hopes of selling it to the highest bidder. We allow existing reservations to be offered only within 30 days of check in, when cancelling the reservation would cause the points to go into holding.

Lisa, yes, I am sorry for not being specific, but that's what I meant, an existing reservation.

I hadn't thought about the "tying up inventory" because I don't think that way. Silly me, I'm honest!

I was just curious because I have an existing ressie for MLK weekend @ BLT (tacking on a few extra days) and I was thinking about listing it (DH and I aren't 100% certain of it yet), but when I read the rules, realized I could not.

Regardless, thank you for clarifying. That makes sense, although it is very unfortunate that people do things like that. This is my first potential foray into renting my points. I guess I have a lot to learn.

Thanks for providing the information in this forum. If we do decide to go that route, it will prove invaluable.