Imagineering - Ei$ner style

[YoHo]

I'm not worried about WDI in the sense that I think they will go away. I worry about them in the sense that I think it will take a couple of years of bad results to get them back into some correct form of managment. Attractions is likely getting a very long rope with which to hang itself. I think DCA is a good example of what can go wrong. You have a couple great Ideas mired in cost concious mismanagment.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Sorry to be so long. Daughter's graduation over the weekend. OK, Let's get to it!!!

LandBaron, to compare the number of resorts to the number of parks and strike a ratio first requires that the original ratio was optimal. I don't believe that it was.

Neither do I. This wasn't my argument. It was the other poster's. All I tried to do, with a little humor (very little is seems) and as non-flaming as possible was correct a premise that was within that post. I'll try once again in VERY plain English.

For example, He states at the beginning of the article that Disney has focused on building 3 times the number of resort rooms it had in 1984, but Disney has created four times the number of parks it had since the 80's as well.

That is simply not true!!! In 1984 (Hill's date, not mine) there were TWO theme parks. Not one! As the post says, we now have FOUR times the amount of parks!! That is not true. We have (at best) doubled. THOSE ARE THE FACTS!!!! My editorial comment was that MGM and AK together do not compare with a MK and EPCOT together. Pretty simple isn't it?

Or it can be sized up in another way:
"blah blah blah blah blah blah blah"

LandBaron, as much as I know it gives you stomach aches, there are thousands of guests that really enjoy their stay at the All Stars. The atmosphere is great, kids love it, many adults love it.

I never said it was bad. They are probably one of the best of that category of accommodations. My only problem with it (and one that I'm sure many will not understand) is that in order for Disney to build and operate these 'economy' resorts they had to lower their standards. Something that, IMO, Disney should have never done. (start another thread somewhere and we'll talk) .

JimB

DVC - No. But that does not mean bigger is worse, either.

See!! Here I am, trying to have a little fun and you pose a question for me. And I answer back with a question, and you reply. Now if I take the next step and we enter into this conversation I know it will add three or four pages, easy. And people seem not to enjoy this. So, I'll ask you, if you are interested and really want to talk to post a new thread asking what you will. Then in the very least I'll be "on-topic" for that thread.

It puts all of this bickering about what is & isn't great about Disney in it's proper place ............................. tremendously unimportant and trivial.

But still kinda' fun.

Hooray!!! We have found common ground. That is my take exactly!!

Thank you tiggerstheman1 for corroborating that Mr. Hill is right or at least accurate. I have always felt that way and it is reassuring that someone from the inside has backed him up. And taking the opportunity to speak for Mr. Hill and myself I'd also like to say, ""blah blah blah blah blah blah blah"

Thedscoop writes:

If all else fails, try the rumor/news board at www.intercot.com . Pretty good info without constantly have debate based threads bumped to the top (as I have unfortunately done here).

Hmmm. I wonder if the handle "DVC-LandBaron" has been taken at that site already? Thanks Thedscoop!! Fresh meat!!

Given the couple of insiders that have replied it seems that he is not too far off base with this one. Doesn't this make you worry about the future of WDI!

You bet it does!! Right down to my Mickey Mouse socks!! And it has for the past three years or so.

Phew!! Almost caught up. YoHo:

I'm not worried about WDI in the sense that I think they will go away. I worry about them in the sense that I think it will take a couple of years of bad results to get them back into some correct form of management.

What makes you think they will have the ability or lack of ego to even properly identify the problem? What makes you think they aren't, not only happy, but ecstatic with the results?

 

[YoHo]

What makes you think they will have the ability or lack of ego to even properly identify the problem? What makes you think they aren't, not only happy, but ecstatic with the results?

First of all, As I work at 3Com, the land of ever changing corporate structure and buisness plan, I would have to say its really easy, egos or no to figure out that the managment is incorrect. The key is installing the correct form of managment, That may be hard. I don't think you'll ever see things back the way they were, since WDI was not performing up to requirements as it was (I have postulated that this is due to lack of oversite from the time Walt Died.

Why do I think they aren't happy?
DCA. the Suits are unhappy with DCA and they can blame all the other outside sources they want, but in the end, they know that it was them misreading the market. HOW do I know this is possible? Well, the execs at 3Com are famous for it. And with all their Eisner Sized Egos, they still are forced to admit when they are wrong (although they do it in round about ways)

In my Department, we built a Cadillac when our customers wanted and would only pay for a pinto. DCA is a Pinto when everybody wanted a Caddy.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I think we are in basic agreement. But I think that a change in management will be required before they admit a mistake. In other words - Ei$ner ain't gonna own up to it!!

In my Department, we built a Cadillac when our customers wanted and would only pay for a pinto. DCA is a Pinto when everybody wanted a Caddy.

That is beautifully put. With your permission, I may borrow it sometime. You know, I may need it for intercot!!

 

[YoHo]

Go ahead, and Incidently, I was assuming that Eisner would fire or reorg the attractions managers which even with Bizarro Ei$ner (as I will now call him) has a chance to succeed.

I mean, If your gonna build that pinto, you better at least make it a good car right? With a well built DCA, you'll pull in at least a few more visitors, at least make the park worth expanding on. You'd have something akin to AK (for different reasons) where there's just one or too key ingredients missing as opposed to the mud pie that is DCA.

 

[PJesse25]

OK, I want to post a reply and hope it sounds as well thought out as the others on this post.

It seems surprising to me that everyone expects all things Disney theme-park related to spring forth fully formed like Athena from the head of Zeus. Wasn't one of Walt Disney's basic principles that he wanted the parks to be ever-changing and expanding? Why do we want everything yesterday? Yes, when MGM and AK opened, they were less than they were capable of being and less than they are now. What is the answer? Not open them so that people could enjoy what was ready? Keep them closed until for years until they are "done"? Will they ever be "done"? I hope not!

Now I know some will accuse me of being a "Stepford Disney Fan", blindly accepting whatever Disney throws at me and that is simply not true. I am deeply stressed about the recent round of attraction closings and lack of new attractions on the planning board. However, I am mindful that there is a new gate in CA (whatever you think of it, it did cost money) and new gates opening in Paris and Tokyo (Yes, I know that there is other money being invested there besides Disney's, but Disney is pitching in some). Even Disney doesn't have a bottomless pit of funds to draw from. Eventually, they will come back to WDW development and I'm sure there will be great things to come!

Now others have a different opinion and that is fine. I know at our core, we all love Disney and want our time spent there to be the best it can be. However, I think that one important element of that has to be to take it for what it is, not for what it isn't.

Have a Disney Day!

 

[All Aboard]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
I never said it was bad. They are probably one of the best of that category of accommodations. My only problem with it (and one that I'm sure many will not understand) is that in order for Disney to build and operate these 'economy' resorts they had to lower their standards. Something that, IMO, Disney should have never done.

I don't believe that Disney has lowered their standards. I just believe that, like in the theme parks, they are now offering B-E ticket resorts. B's being the All Stars, C's being the moderates, D's being the Lodges and E's being the deluxes.

That said, I think Disney makes a pretty mean B-ticket resort, with all of the quality that meets their standards, especially in comparison to other "outside the gates" offerings. I never pay more than $49 or $59 to stay at the All Stars. It's great value.

I think that we have a differing opinion on what standards are. If I can go back to the theme park example, and compare say, the Tower of Terror with Dumbo - an E with a B. Without a doubt, ToT is tops anywhere in terms of quality, standards and all of the things we have discussed elsewhere that make a Disney attraction, a Disney attraction. But, in my opinion, so is Dumbo. Just on a much smaller scale.

Compare it to the carnival and other amusement park spinners and it set the standard for its day. It's delightfully themed, fun, colorful, imaginative, inviting, happy, and everything that makes it a life-long fit and fantastic part of Fantasyland.

I can say the same thing about the All Star Resorts. No, they are not incredibly detailed like the Tower, nor are they on the cutting edge in design, but they are wonderfully themed, fun, colorful, imaginative, inviting and happy and everything that makes them a great entry into the Disney resort mix.

 

[YoHo]

gcurling, to add fuel to the fire, Disney didn't lower their standards with the Values, because Walt planned from the beginning to have Motel quality buildings on site anyway. If anything, All-stars is a huge leap above the typical motel.

None of which changes the fact that I personally find them ugly.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

gcurling, to add fuel to the fire, Disney didn't lower their standards with the Values, because Walt planned from the beginning to have Motel quality buildings on site anyway.

Is this the fourth or fifth thread that you've said this in? OK, I'll bite. Other than a sketch that bicker referred to, what else that Walt ever did leads you to believe that he would have included ordinary 'motels'? And even given the bicker reference it was a concept sketch!! Nothing more. You should take a look at the first draft of Disneyland if you want to see some LAME ideas, concepts and names. For all I know he looked at the sketch, saw a piece of prime real estate that could be developed and quickly wrote "motel". But I don't know what he was thinking at all! He could have been thinking cheap, but somehow I doubt it. He also could have meant Poly style. I'd like to see the original concept drawing for the first phase of the project. Maybe he quickly wrote 'futuristic motel', meaning the Contemporary.

Don't get me wrong YoHo. I'm not saying you're wrong. All I'm trying to get across is that this concept flies in the face of everything else I've ever read or heard about Walt and WDW. So an obscure sketch means nothing. We need a little bit more corroboration.

 

[YoHo]

ITs hardly obscure, more to the point, Having already built Disneyland with all its pitfalls (did you know that every room at the Disneyland hotel has the original concept sketch for Disneyland painted on the Armore'?)

Walt's concepts for Disney World were far further along even in the preliminary Sketch (Which I believe had Poly and contemp already marked off as resorts although not with themes, I'll have to go look again.)

Walt wanted everything to be on his terms including the hotels/motels on property. To me, that suggests that he wanted the cheap hotels built on his terms, RECOGNIZING that there simply were going to be cheap hotels.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

PJesse25 WELCOME!!

I don't know what everyone else's take on this is, but I can give you mine.

It seems surprising to me that everyone expects all things Disney theme-park related to spring forth fully formed like Athena from the head of Zeus.

I don't really have anything to add, but I liked the sentence quite a bit!!!

Wasn't one of Walt Disney's basic principles that he wanted the parks to be ever-changing and expanding?

Yes!! Absolutely!!

Why do we want everything yesterday?

I know what you mean. I don't!! I think this is a common mistake. I don't want things to stay the same. You didn't hear a peep from me when Toad went away. Not a word from my keyboard when 20K disappeared. And I didn't enter the fray when Timekeeper bit the dust. And I don't even complain about the quality of Pooh (replacement for Toad). No. Things cannot stay the same. Things must change. It'd be pretty sad if we still had Mission to the Moon or the Monsanto's House of the future in Disneyland.

HOWEVER, there is one thing that cannot change. That must not change. Walt's standards. The ideals, concepts and philosophy on which he built Disneyland and later that inspired WDW and EPCOT. And that is changing whether we want to admit it or not.

Yes, when MGM and AK opened, they were less than they were capable of being and less than they are now. What is the answer? Not open them so that people could enjoy what was ready? Keep them closed until for years until they are "done"?

YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!
I don't mean to gloss over your intent. I think you're saying that they will never be "done". Just as the MK will never be 'done'. But it goes further than that. They shouldn't keep them closed for years until they are done, but only until they are 'done' up to Disney standards!! And the public is saying, with their attendance, that they are NOT!!

And I believe they are not as well. Don't get me wrong. What they have in AK is wonderful. But it's not enough. So, for me at least, this is one of the few times that 'size matters'!!

. I am deeply stressed about the recent round of attraction closings and lack of new attractions on the planning board.

As am I!!! As are many here!!

Eventually, they will come back to WDW development

See, I don't really care about that. This is where a lot of my fellow "so called fans" and I differ. I don't care if they add 'new' things every year. I think that they should replace an attraction with an attraction, but I'm not clamoring for an e-ticket every year. In fact, I'm one of the few to say thank you Mr. Mouse for the wonderful Aladdin spinner. It's an extra. If it adds to the MK, in even a miniscule way, then I'm in favor of it. And when the time is right, and funding is clearly identified and the stars align in that special way, build us an e-ticket. BUT DO IT RIGHT!!!

BTW. Your post was wonderful. Thanks!

 

[josh_e_washie]

i think it's funny that so many people have so many negative things to say about JHM

 

[2Xited4Disney]

hhhahh how did you even dig this up.... it is from like 5 years ago

 

[mrsR123]

that the Baron had resurfaced.

ANd I too, am surprised that one could get a thread this old to load.

 

[DC7800]

that the Baron had resurfaced.

For a few seconds, I thought the exact same thing...

Aside from how this thread was dug up, why was it done? It's not like we have to go back five years to find an example of Disney doing something negative...and threads which are fairly and honestly critical of the Disney company for its too-common failures and general lack of effort.

 

[YoHo]

It's called VINDICATION!!!

I can't believe how optomistic I used to be. What a fool I was.

Those of you arguing with me now should take this as a cautionary tale.

 

[All Aboard]

That's the YoHo I remember fondly. Middle of the road optimist, much like I am now.

I thought for sure I'd find myself sticking my foot in my mouth somewhere in this thread (like the one somebody else pointed out to me) But, me arguing in support of the All Stars. Geez, how many years have I been doing that? Still agree with what I typed on this topic 5 and a half years ago.

But, I'm sure some archive searches will unearth plenty that I've changed my tune on.

 

[YoHo]

Most of the changes in my opinion can be tied directly to learning new things from boardmembers and books like Disney War. There's no longer any reason for the optimism I once had. I've actually been into DCA since then, I've spent 3 years observing what they've done to ruin DL.

 

[FriendsOfEeyore]

Wow......

I remember this post!!!! This is back when I was in Car #1.

Oh my. Thanks for the memories and Baron come back.....

 

[DisOrBust]

What ever happened to the "cars" sticky on this board anyway??