I'm put out--vent

Wow. From reading your post, you sound like an overbearing, pressuring parent, and at 16, I would be pretty put out with you, in all honesty, and would probably NOt study, just to tick you off. LOL Not all kids desire to go to a #1 college. It's not the end of the world if people don't go to Harvard or Yale. Some don't go at all. She's 16, and more concerned about boys right now, than college and tests. It kind of sounds like you want her to live your life, and not choose one of her own. I do think that teens do need some health hudges in the right direction, I'm glad my mom helped me, but I didn't get serious until senior year. And I'm a college theatre major. :) It's hard work, and rewarding. So please don't dismiss us. :) Give her some time, have a heart to heart talk about what her future plans are, and see if she's interested in talking about future goals with the guidance councelors at school. Good luck!!

Well, if, like in your example, a kid did not study and sabotaged their own chances at college admissions just to "tick off" their parents, then there would definitely be a maturity issue there that might indicate the kid is not ready for college, imo.

Also, the OP was quite upfront about her dd's low gpa and ACT scores. Certainly no one mentioned Harvard or Yale. :confused3

Most of the kids I know are focused on college from freshman year, in their course selection, test preparation, looking at potential colleges, looking into majors/career paths, etc. Why do you say the OP's dd is more concerned with boys than college and tests? (The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.) Maybe some kids are more concerned with boys than college--but isn't it our job as parents to show them the big picture compared to the drama of who's doing what this Friday night?

I am very glad I got my undergrad and professional education completed and my career started before I had my kids. I am encouraging my kids to do the same. It is hard enough to juggle family and career without throwing school into the mix, imo. Especially in the OP's case, her dd is interested in theater and dance-doesn't that require long hours, flexibility to travel/relocate, etc.?
 
...General laborers fall into a different category. To be a plumber, electrician, general contractor, etc. the rules are different. You can hire people to WORK for you that are not, but generally that pay is not very good. Roofing isn't considered a "skilled" trade and the licensing requirements are different.

You have decided that you are going to "win" this discussion, haven't you... ;)
 
I think you are limiting your DD with your lack of research. With her GPA and ACT she will easily get into any state school or smaller liberal arts college, even those that are somewhat selective. Also, there are plenty of scholarships she would qualify for with her dance background and her ACT score. As for paying for college, if you really can't afford a state school there is a VERY good chance you will qualify for financial aid in some form and more of it at a private college. If she scored over 30 on the ACT she would get free ride offers to many, many schools reguardless of her GPA. Also, if she has a full load of AP courses with a B average in those she will be more likely to be accepted then someone with a straight A average with no AP classes. You are putting too much emphasis on her GPA and not enough on her course load, ACT and dance.

are there really schools that give a free ride for scoring over 30 on the ACT? Regardless of GPA? I have never seen any that don't have a corresponding gpa requirement.
 
are there really schools that give a free ride for scoring over 30 on the ACT? Regardless of GPA? I have never seen any that don't have a corresponding gpa requirement.

I had an ACT above 30, a high GPA and a high school ranking and I did not get one offer of a free ride. They always showed how to use student loans to get the out of pocket expenses down.
 

I grew up outside NYC and growing up we knew girls that did not go to college. Most of them would get secretarial/administrative assistant-type jobs in NYC for brokerage firms, banks, big law firms, etc. Those women did very well and some did advance within their companies. The Wall Street ones would even get good bonuses! I don't know if that is still the case with the recent upheavals, etc. It was a very viable career option for many years, though.
 
are there really schools that give a free ride for scoring over 30 on the ACT? Regardless of GPA? I have never seen any that don't have a corresponding gpa requirement.

Most will list a GPA but the ACT score will get you in on that alone. It's all about demographics. The college can then boast that what ever percentage of their students are in the top what ever percent of ACT scores. Some good friends of our's DS sluffed his way through high school and barely scraped by with a B average but scored 35 on his ACT. He has a full ride at Purdue (he is a sophomore pharmacy major). His sister has a straight A average, is graduating #1 in her class but only scored a 29 on her ACT and has yet to get any scholarship offers. She will most likely get plenty but all of his college acceptance letters came with full ride offers, her's did not.
 
I don't have a degree either and have done very well. But I am in my 40s. Where I work now, for the federal government, you can't even get a job answering the phones without a degree. Sure, the job description may not *require* it, but when 100 of the 105 people applying for the admin job have a 4-year degree or higher, you've lost your chance to get in if you have no other connection.

Where I live, you can pretty much get into the union trades without a degree (they have their own 4-5 year school) but they are giving preference to those applicants, at least in the electrical union, that have degrees. It will only be a matter of time before non-degreed people are shut out of that.

I think that's why many of us parents feel such panic over this. We all know that not everyone is college material nor should be there. I agree with that 100%. But when you are out there working and you see what competition these young adults are up against trying to just get their foot in the door it is disheartening. Of course it is much worse in the white collar/office jobs (where most women end up). I don't like it/don't agree with it for many positions, but it is a fact of life. I don't have a degree and I don't feel hampered at all because I now have so much experience it doesn't matter. This won't help my daughter though.

That is EXACTLY why I am getting my degree now. I am a contractor for the government, work alongside government employees, answer to MAJs, CPTs, etc and I will probably never be able to get a government job doing exactly what I'm doing now because I don't have that degree.

I lucked into my job starting out, I have worked my way up to a great pay and title, however until I get my degree I have gone as far as I can go. I dont want to be at my peak at the age of thirtysomething!

Oh, and I make almost exactly what DBF makes and he has a degree. (It kind of irritates him actually. lol)

DD has a clear career path in mind. I think as long as she keeps her eye on her goal she will do well in high school. (I'm not crazy about her going to The University of Miami though. lol) I do, occasionally, have to remind her that what she does now will have an impact on her future schooling and career goals.
 
I had an ACT above 30, a high GPA and a high school ranking and I did not get one offer of a free ride. They always showed how to use student loans to get the out of pocket expenses down.

Same here - Had a 31 ACT, 1430 SAT (when 1600 was max), and a 3.86 GPA (when 4.0 was max) and got very little scholarship money. I joined the Army for the college fund...
 
I don't have a degree either and have done very well. But I am in my 40s. Where I work now, for the federal government, you can't even get a job answering the phones without a degree. Sure, the job description may not *require* it, but when 100 of the 105 people applying for the admin job have a 4-year degree or higher, you've lost your chance to get in if you have no other connection.

Where I live, you can pretty much get into the union trades without a degree (they have their own 4-5 year school) but they are giving preference to those applicants, at least in the electrical union, that have degrees. It will only be a matter of time before non-degreed people are shut out of that.

I think that's why many of us parents feel such panic over this. We all know that not everyone is college material nor should be there. I agree with that 100%. But when you are out there working and you see what competition these young adults are up against trying to just get their foot in the door it is disheartening. Of course it is much worse in the white collar/office jobs (where most women end up). I don't like it/don't agree with it for many positions, but it is a fact of life. I don't have a degree and I don't feel hampered at all because I now have so much experience it doesn't matter. This won't help my daughter though.

Christine, would your dd be interested in working as a paralegal? If my dd didn't go to college I would have her get a paralegal certificate. We live outside NYC and that seemed to be a good career choice. How about a COTA (occupational therapy assistant) or pharmacy tech?
 
I think you are limiting your DD with your lack of research. With her GPA and ACT she will easily get into any state school or smaller liberal arts college, even those that are somewhat selective. Also, there are plenty of scholarships she would qualify for with her dance background and her ACT score. As for paying for college, if you really can't afford a state school there is a VERY good chance you will qualify for financial aid in some form and more of it at a private college. If she scored over 30 on the ACT she would get free ride offers to many, many schools reguardless of her GPA. Also, if she has a full load of AP courses with a B average in those she will be more likely to be accepted then someone with a straight A average with no AP classes. You are putting too much emphasis on her GPA and not enough on her course load, ACT and dance.


This just is NOT true. You do NOT need a great GPA to get into most schools. If you are applying to highly selective schools, yes, but the vast majority of the colleges/universities around the country don't require a great GPA and an ACT score in the 20's will get you into many, many schools. Now, if your child MUST go to Harvard, that is a different story.

I've got to disagree with you here. The previously mentioned GPA will absolutely not get you into any state school. While I'm sure there are some state schools that you could get into with a lower GPA/SAT score, there are also many with much higher requirements. In my area specifically, both the University of Georgia and Georgia Tech have VERY high entrance requirements. Other very competitive state schools that come to mind include UVA, UNC Chapel Hill, Penn State, etc. They are excellent schools, but by no means Harvard.

Additionally, I had a very competitive application for college, and I did not have schools offering me free rides left and right. I graduated with a 4.118 GPA, 1300 SAT score (out of 1600), numerous extra-curriculars, and a course load of AP and honors classes. My freshman year I attended a small liberal arts college, and I received a quarter tuition scholarship, far from a full ride. After I chose to transfer to UGA, I actually got a free ride then via the state's fantastic Hope Scholarship program.
 
Additionally, I had a very competitive application for college, and I did not have schools offering me free rides left and right. I graduated with a 4.118 GPA, 1300 SAT score (out of 1600), numerous extra-curriculars, and a course load of AP and honors classes. My freshman year I attended a small liberal arts college, and I received a quarter tuition scholarship, far from a full ride. After I chose to transfer to UGA, I actually got a free ride then via the state's fantastic Hope Scholarship program.
I have to agree with this.

We have 2 DD's going through the college process right now. In fact, their decisions have to be made within the next few weeks.

One of my DD's is a solid A student - takes AP courses, scored over 1200 on her SAT's, & is involved in student government and a leadership class in school that plays a significant role in running the majority of school activities.

My other DD is a B+ student, scored almost 1100 on her SAT's, is on the senior class board & also the leadership class at school.

They are both receiving some sort of merit scholarship from all the schools they have applied to, however, even the DD with the A average & better test scores is not getting anywhere close to a full ride. My oldest didn't either.

The first DD will receive more merit awards than the 2nd one, but with the exception of the state schools that they applied to, their not significant enough to really reduce the cost of school by an extreme amount.

We are in the midst of trying to get through this major financial decision. It's a daily conversation at our house. The costs of college are incredible. We would love to be able to send them all to the college of their choosing, let them dorm & get the real "college experience" but it doesn't like it's going to happen. One of them may go away as she really doesn't have a "favorite" that's within commuting distance. I could go on & on.............it's an ongoing headache for us each day - mainly for my DH!
 
General laborers fall into a different category. To be a plumber, electrician, general contractor, etc. the rules are different. You can hire people to WORK for you that are not, but generally that pay is not very good. Roofing isn't considered a "skilled" trade and the licensing requirements are different.


Where did she mention "roofing' or a general laborer?

You do not have to have a degree to be a plumber, electrician or a general contractor. You have to have enough knowledge to get your license to be a plumber or an electricitian. But that is it. Just because there are 2 year degrees in these areas does not mean they are required to be able to work in these fields. A lot of these people are in business for themselves so who exactly is going to require the degree anyway? HVAC is another career that a degree is available, but usually not required. There is also a 2 year degree in carpentery--not required.
 
I've got to disagree with you here. The previously mentioned GPA will absolutely not get you into any state school. While I'm sure there are some state schools that you could get into with a lower GPA/SAT score, there are also many with much higher requirements. In my area specifically, both the University of Georgia and Georgia Tech have VERY high entrance requirements. Other very competitive state schools that come to mind include UVA, UNC Chapel Hill, Penn State, etc. They are excellent schools, but by no means Harvard.

Additionally, I had a very competitive application for college, and I did not have schools offering me free rides left and right. I graduated with a 4.118 GPA, 1300 SAT score (out of 1600), numerous extra-curriculars, and a course load of AP and honors classes. My freshman year I attended a small liberal arts college, and I received a quarter tuition scholarship, far from a full ride. After I chose to transfer to UGA, I actually got a free ride then via the state's fantastic Hope Scholarship program.

A 4.1 weighted GPA is the same as a 3.1 unweighted. I wouldn't consider that a "competitive" application, sorry. A 3.0 unweighted (a B average) is MORE then enough to get you into most state schools. Yes, there are SOME state schools that have higher requirements but countrywide they are few and far between.
 
A 4.1 weighted GPA is the same as a 3.1 unweighted. I wouldn't consider that a "competitive" application, sorry. A 3.0 unweighted (a B average) is MORE then enough to get you into most state schools. Yes, there are SOME state schools that have higher requirements but countrywide they are few and far between.

Um, no I did not have a 3.1 unweighted GPA. I'm not at all sure how you arrived at that number. I received very few non-A grades in my high school career (mostly in math, the subject that is the bane of my existence). It's been years, but I seem to remember getting about 4 B's and 1 C out of all my high school courses, with the remainder A's.
 
Um, no I did not have a 3.1 unweighted GPA. I'm not at all sure how you arrived at that number. I received very few non-A grades in my high school career (mostly in math, the subject that is the bane of my existence). It's been years, but I seem to remember getting about 4 B's and 1 C out of all my high school courses, with the remainder A's.

Most weighted scores are based on a 5.0 scale, thus the 4.1=3.1. Around here 4 B's and a C would not put you in the top 20% of the class, maybe the top 30%. Sorry.
 
Most weighted scores are based on a 5.0 scale, thus the 4.1=3.1. Around here 4 B's and a C would not put you in the top 20% of the class, maybe the top 30%. Sorry.

In this area we receive .5 extra credit for honors classes and 1.0 extra credit for AP classes. I graduated in the top 7% of my class. You seem to be implying that my high school was not challenging, so here's a link so you can see for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Walton_Comprehensive_High_School

I'm hoping you don't mean it this way, but you seem to be implying that I have delusions of grandeur about my academic performance. I would never claim to be in the most elite tier of students like our valedictorian who aced the SAT and went on to Harvard, but I did have a competitive college application. Not that I need to justify myself, but I did go on to graduate magna cum laude from UGA with a BBA.
 
A 4.1 weighted GPA is the same as a 3.1 unweighted. I wouldn't consider that a "competitive" application, sorry. A 3.0 unweighted (a B average) is MORE then enough to get you into most state schools. Yes, there are SOME state schools that have higher requirements but countrywide they are few and far between.

I think you need to realize that what you have experienced is not the only way things are. A 4.1 weighted would not convert to a 3.1 unweighted here. It would be higher than 3.1. Scales vary from school to school.

As for your other point, a 3.0 would generally NOT be enough to get into the state universities (mostly flagship schools) that my dd applied to last fall: Penn State, University of Maryland, University of Delaware, Rutgers, UConn, James Madison, Pitt, SUNY Binghamton.

The lower tier state schools, sure. Also the private schools that give the merit scholarships you refer to for 3.0 gpas are lower tier schools. There's nothing inherently wrong with going to those schools-I went to one myself. But some students want to go to the best school they can get into, with the best program, best reputation, etc. especially in this job market. Quite a few top tier schools give only need based aid (no scholarships at Harvard!) Different families make different choices which is great! And I fully understand economics being a factor in choosing a school-I lived that!
 
Okay, I'm better today. I was really upset last night and most of the morning, so I called my massage therapist and she was able to get me in. My whole neck and shoulder girdle is one big knot. She couldn't relieve all of them in one session, so I'll probably go back next week sometime for some more work. AT any rate, Ihave better perspective tonight.

I'm sorry if I offended the theater and cosmetology crowd, the "you're pushing too much crowd", the "push her harder crowd", the no degree crowd, the strong work ethic crowd, and pretty much everybody else. For the record we do not push our daughter, her school does. Every chance they get. We do support her in her theater and dance ventures and I have the bills to prove it. Our daughter does not date much. She has had a total of 2 non-serious boyfriends in her life. We will support her whether she goes to college or not, whatever she wants to be. I only want her to be able to make her ends meet.

I've come to realize that having your kids not go to college isn't the end of the world. It's not leukemia or schizophrenia or traumatic brain injury. We have a court case in Atlanta right now where a young punk fired into crowd and hit a 19yo girl almost point blank right in the chest. She died at the scene. She was a student at Clark-Atlanta Univ with a 3.90 GPA, the first in her family to ever go to college, an only child. I'm sure her mother would give just about anything for her daughter to come home to Kansas City and go to community college.

There are three 2-year residential state community colleges in GA. If dd16 can't get into the school she really wants, I know she can easily get into one of those schools. And perhaps that would be better for her anyway. They are all very small schools, like a large HS. They may not have the theater and dance programs that she wants, but thats what happens when you don't get your GPA up. Maybe she can go there and improve her grades enough to transfer later. I never said I wanted her to get into a top school. I am realistic enough to know that she's not top school material. Nor could we ever pay for an expensive school. Our income is extremely low. There is no money for college. There was money, but it went away when DH became ill and later disabled. So wherever she goes, the onus is on her to find a way to pay for it. We will help her file FAFSA and find grants & scholarships but that's about as far as we can go. We absolutely cannot rack up a lot of debt at our ages (53). DH and I came from poverty ourselves and we found a way to pay for college. It took us both 5 years to get through school, but we did it. She can do it too.
 
Okay, I'm better today. I was really upset last night and most of the morning, so I called my massage therapist and she was able to get me in. My whole neck and shoulder girdle is one big knot. She couldn't relieve all of them in one session, so I'll probably go back next week sometime for some more work. AT any rate, Ihave better perspective tonight.

I'm sorry if I offended the theater and cosmetology crowd, the "you're pushing too much crowd", the "push her harder crowd", the no degree crowd, the strong work ethic crowd, and pretty much everybody else. For the record we do not push our daughter, her school does. Every chance they get. We do support her in her theater and dance ventures and I have the bills to prove it. Our daughter does not date much. She has had a total of 2 non-serious boyfriends in her life. We will support her whether she goes to college or not, whatever she wants to be. I only want her to be able to make her ends meet.

I've come to realize that having your kids not go to college isn't the end of the world. It's not leukemia or schizophrenia or traumatic brain injury. We have a court case in Atlanta right now where a young punk fired into crowd and hit a 19yo girl almost point blank right in the chest. She died at the scene. She was a student at Clark-Atlanta Univ with a 3.90 GPA, the first in her family to ever go to college, an only child. I'm sure her mother would give just about anything for her daughter to come home to Kansas City and go to community college.

There are three 2-year residential state community colleges in GA. If dd16 can't get into the school she really wants, I know she can easily get into one of those schools. And perhaps that would be better for her anyway. They are all very small schools, like a large HS. They may not have the theater and dance programs that she wants, but thats what happens when you don't get your GPA up. Maybe she can go there and improve her grades enough to transfer later. I never said I wanted her to get into a top school. I am realistic enough to know that she's not top school material. Nor could we ever pay for an expensive school. Our income is extremely low. There is no money for college. There was money, but it went away when DH became ill and later disabled. So wherever she goes, the onus is on her to find a way to pay for it. We will help her file FAFSA and find grants & scholarships but that's about as far as we can go. We absolutely cannot rack up a lot of debt at our ages (53). DH and I came from poverty ourselves and we found a way to pay for college. It took us both 5 years to get through school, but we did it. She can do it too.

Wow, sounds like this discussion went a million miles away from anything you were really saying or intending! :laughing:

Sounds like your daughter is going to be just fine.
 
I used to be a financial aid and scholarship counselor for a public university, scoring scholarship applications. A lot more goes into reviewing them than just GPA/SAT/ACT. In fact, those scores were automatically calculated and were just a portion of the overall score. We cared about difficulty of courses, breadth of extracurriculars and well-roundedness, depth (how many years involved in the extra-curriculars, versus joining everything senior year at the last minute), whether they also held a job, community service activities, leadership demonstrated in those extracurriculars or elsewhere, and answers to essay questions (uniqueness, well-written, grammatically correct, actually answering the question, etc), just to name a few.

I was a student at the same university where I later worked as a financial aid counselor, and I did receive a full ride academic scholarship to attend. I had a 4.0 unweighted GPA with an honor's diploma and rigorous courseload, 1300/1600 SAT, no ACT - lots of extracurriculars, leadership positions in those extracurriculars, no music, no athletics, a part-time job, and *lots* of community service. I also put a lot of effort into my essay, knowing it's not a lot of work with a potentially really large payout. I am sure there are people with higher SATs than me who were also involved in more athletic/musical things than me, but a lot goes into an application review. It also depends on your school, the aid they have available, and the applicant pool. Things are more and more competitive and lots of students with the same grades and GPA scores also need to sell themselves and set themselves apart in other areas of their applications. I would frequently hear parents say, "So and so's daughter got a scholarship and mine didn't and they had the same grades and SATs!" Every aspect of the application is scrutinized and small things can make a big difference. The best advice I can give is to start early and encourage students to be very involved in the things that interest them, be involved in a variety of activities, serve their schools/communities in some way and take positions of leadership and demonstrate initiative - in addition to being a great student. :) It can pay off greatly, but the competition can be very stiff - students generally have to want it and been working hard for it for a long time for that to shine through in their application, and even then there's only so much money to award.

Admissions can be a different story - most schools will allow you to petition for admission if you don't meet basic requirements, but you would typically need a good reason in your essay, not just "I slacked off." :) OP, you sound like you have done what you can for your daughter, but she also has to be self-motivated. Remind her that what she does now in class and school might not be much fun but could have a big impact on her future. That's not to say starting off in a community college would be bad for her, or that college at all is a requirement. It still isn't for everyone, and it's not a requirement for success, though it can make it easier or be required for certain fields. Community college might even be a better place for a mediocre or unmotivated student to attend - if they decide it's not for them, they haven't laid out as much money to learn that lesson. They often have theatre programs as well that your daughter could take advantage of while completing some general ed requirements that could transfer to four-year state schools if she decides to pursue that degree (academic advising can help with that.) Getting out on her own and reaching a different maturity level might increase her motivation for success in school or give her a greater clarity about her personal goals. As long as she's happy and successful in what she does, that should make you happy. But if she has certain goals or visions for herself, she'll need to be realistic about the path she needs to take to get there, and what alternatives she might consider if that path isn't feasible for her anymore. A lot of people change their minds along the way, and she has time to do that; it's just good if she can set herself up to have a lot of options if she wants or needs them. It might be a good idea to do some college and community college visits and have her talk to admissions, academic advising, financial aid and theatre department representatives so she can hear from someone other than "mom" about what's realistic for someone in her situation - it might give her a little wake-up call if she's really serious about college.
 





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