I'm put out--vent

[MELSMICE]

I can see that everyone is dancing around this fact, but I'll just spit it out. You're not 16, and you're obviously not dealing with the 16 year old job market. The people you work with are from an age where not everyone went to college. They have been working for many years and gained experience that will rate them over a new graduate. However, today more students than ever have gone to college, and the numbers keep going up. When this girl in question is ready to enter the professional job market, she will be competing with people who DO have a degree in the field she wants to be in. And yes, art degrees do matter. Its rare that a non-college educated person makes 6 figures a year, obviously you understand this, since you had the urge to tell everyone that you know so many of them. this is not the norm, and to tout that it is does a disservice to many, many students and future students.

The education gap is only getting wider, most high school graduates do go to college, and many get a 2/4 year degree. There isn't that mass of high school graduates without a college degree that existed twenty or thirty years ago. College is more than the education you get in a classroom. She will make connections with professionals in her field (her professors) and her fellow classmates that will continue to help her for the rest of her life.

Does everyone need to go to college? possibly not. But has it ever hurt anyone? No. Never. Having an education has never damaged someone. If the only outcome was that they were exposed to more than they would have been otherwise, it is still worth it.

You said you didn't want to get into statistics, but i think that's becuase you won't find any that support your claim. Here are some that prove you wrong.

According to the cenus bureau:
A high school graduate will, in their lifetime earn 1.2 million dollars.
A holder of a Bachelors degree (in any field) will earn 2.1 million dollars.

In 2008 38% of students graduated from college in four years or less, while 58% graduated in 5-7 years.

According to the ACT, more students are STAYING in college, verses dropping out (72% return)

According to the census bureau:
Workers 18 and over sporting bachelors degrees earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915. But wait, there's more. Workers with an advanced degree make an average of $74,602, and those without a high school diploma average $18,734.

According to ERIC digest:
80 percent of all students--enroll either in public 4-year colleges or in public 2-year colleges

According to report published by the Institute for Higher Education Policy reviews the individual benefits that college graduates enjoy, including higher levels of saving, increased personal/professional mobility, improved quality of life for their offspring, better consumer decision making, and more hobbies and leisure activities.

According to According to a report published by the Carnegie Foundation, non-monetary individual benefits of higher education include the tendency for post-secondary students to become more open-minded, more cultured, more rational, more consistent and less authoritarian; these benefits are also passed along to succeeding generations.

According to The Economics of American Higher Education:
"parental schooling levels (after controlling for differences in earnings) are positively correlated with the health status of their children" and "increased schooling (and higher relative income) are correlated with lower mortality rates for given age brackets"

According to Is There Too Much Emphasis on Getting a 4-Year College Degree? Students who do not complete a 4 year degree tend to earn around the same bracket as students who do complete a 2 year degree.

And i could go on and on and on. I've listed how a college education improves the quality of life overall, through many different avenues, including financial gain, better health, and overall happiness.

There is no way to say that college is a bad thing. Yes, you know a few people who make some money without going to college, but this is not the norm. This has never been the norm. This will never be the norm. They are exceptions to the rule, and very lucky people who have worked incredibly hard to get the work experience to carry their resume, where a college degree would.

Thank you for the facts!!!!

Is college for everyone.........no, but it certainly will not hurt you in the long run.

We are education "pushers" in our household - actually I prefer to say we are supporting them through the education process! Some of you may think that is wrong, but our goal as parents has always been to make sure that our 3 DD's can be self-supportive, educated woman. For us, this means they will require a college degree - at least a bachelor's degree.

My oldest is a college junior & my twins will be entering college in the fall. There was never a question whether they would attend college or not.

DisneyBamaFan - I have no doubt that you know many laborers or people with technical skills that make the salaries that you say - these are the people you hang with & the circles you run in. Outside of your circle though there are many people who chose not to go to college or did not finish college that are finding difficult to find a decent job in today's market.

As someone else said, they are up against others that have more education than they do. In most cases, the individual with more education will get the job.

And our area must be the same as golfgal's - here you can not just get a job as an electrician, plumber, etc., without some sort of schooling or training.

 

[Christine]

Buckalew--

I wanted to address your feelings about this thread and the "hairstylist" comments. I hope I wasn't one to make it seem like a lowly profession because that certainly wasn't my intention. I would *love* to have a hairstylist in the family. I think everyone needs one as well as a doctor and a lawyer!

I think, though, that you have to be somewhat creative and to want it as a profession. My DD never did and I did offer to send her to Graham Webb rather than go to college but she absolutely did not want it. So my question on this thread was, besides being a hairstylist, what "trade" can a woman go into that can she can make a decent living at if she is not physically inclined to be in a laboring profession? Not all women are cut out to haul pipe, run wire, crawl in ceilings, etc. While some women would love it. If your not inclined to do that, what trade can you go into? Not much for a woman...

Anyway, back to hairstyling. My stylist was "forced" to attend a four year college by her parents. She hated it and when she got out, she went to school for hair and LOVES her job. The downside is that she never gets a Saturday off, she gets very little paid vacation (one week), and her health insurance is crummy. I've had several hairstylists and they all claim that the benefits are not so good in that profession. It's hard job, physically and I think to succeed you have to have a real love of hair design and a creative streak in you.

So I didn't want you to think that I thought it was a lowly profession. It actually seems like great job but since most stylists are employed by small business owners, it seems that get the shaft when it comes to leave and health benefits.

 

[taximomfor4]

OP, dd did NO prep at ALL for her ACT. And took all Honors/AP classes without striving to do Excellent in them (She was content with all B's). So when colleges un-weight those weighted courses, her just-over-3.1 is dramatically lower. And with no prep whatsoever for the ACT, her 27 is good but not backed up by any kind of decent GPA. She can get into plenty of schools, we just can't afford them...scholarships are passing her by.

She will attend community college, commuting from home. For 1-2 yrs. Then, she will hopefully transfer to the local State school, which has the major she wants plus the Master's.

I didn't want her to start out in community college, but she really limited her options. I feel I paid for her ACT once. If I thought a couple more points on her score would make all the difference, I'd convince HER to pay to take it again but with her GPA (especially unweighted), she could get a 31 and still be passed over for scholarship money.

Sometimes, they live with what they've set themselves up for, I guess. I feel your pain, though!

 

[punkin]

OP, dd did NO prep at ALL for her ACT. And took all Honors/AP classes without striving to do Excellent in them (She was content with all B's). So when colleges un-weight those weighted courses, her just-over-3.1 is dramatically lower. And with no prep whatsoever for the ACT, her 27 is good but not backed up by any kind of decent GPA. She can get into plenty of schools, we just can't afford them...scholarships are passing her by.

She will attend community college, commuting from home. For 1-2 yrs. Then, she will hopefully transfer to the local State school, which has the major she wants plus the Master's.

I didn't want her to start out in community college, but she really limited her options. I feel I paid for her ACT once. If I thought a couple more points on her score would make all the difference, I'd convince HER to pay to take it again but with her GPA (especially unweighted), she could get a 31 and still be passed over for scholarship money.

Sometimes, they live with what they've set themselves up for, I guess. I feel your pain, though!

There are plenty of schools (mostly small liberal arts ones) who would give scholarships to your DD. Now maybe those scholarships will not be sufficient (I don't know your financial situation), but she should get something. So far every single private school my DD has applied to has given her money, ranging from $7,500 to $19,000. Her ACT score is 27 and her UW average is 3.2. Her weighted average is 3.85.

 

[bettymae1121]

I absolutely think that people should always get post high school education wherever possible. It truly will give you a leg up over your lifetime.

That said, I also truly believe that the number of successful people with "just" high school degrees is a lot higher than everyone likes to give credit for. Neither my DH nor I have any type of degree above high school. Our combined income is in the low six figures. We are 33 and 37, so we grew up being told that "only people with college degrees succeed". And we aren't rare either. Only one of DH's 3 dozen co-workers have college degree (and that one makes less than DH does) and none of my co-workers have one either, including my boss who is in management. A friend of mine that is in the same field I am but works for a different company, also has no degree and neither do most of her co-workers, including some of her managers.

Of all of my friends who do have degrees, I make more than all of them, except one who has a masters in forensic science. I do make more than her bachelor degreed husband, though. Another of my friends will eventually make more than me, because she is an RN now and wants to be a nurse practitioner. The only reason she doesn't make more than me now is because she keeps popping out babies and is on constant maternity leave!

I know, or my DH knows, dozens and dozens of people without college degrees that make a nice living. Plus we aren't saddled with student loans for ten or fifteen years after graduating. At 25 I owned my first home, at 27 I owned my own car outright (still drive it in fact, I hate car payments!), at 29 I had bought my second home with a 20% down payment. At 33 I have more in my 401k than anyone I've talked to that's my age (and more than a few that are older!).

Again, I'm totally NOT putting down college degrees. I actually hope to go and get one of those things some day. Not just to increase my earning potential (though that would be nice! ) but because I love to learn. But the notion that a high school diploma limits you to a career of flipping burgers just isn't true, it's not even close to being true. It does put some limits on you, but not to that extreme.

Now that I'm done hijacking the OP's thread, here is something a bit closer to what she's worried about. OP, I was just like your daughter in high school. I hated home work. I'd ace every test you put in front of me (except math) but my grades were terible because I never turned in my home work. I took the ACT cold (got a 24 though) and only took it because my mother made me. I had ZERO desire to go to college. I really didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and so going to school (to me) didn't make any sense since I had no idea what to major in.

Your daughter at least has a goal, she loves dance and theater. You've got a bit more "carrot" to use with her than my parents did with me. In your shoes, I'd start with telling your daughter that she cannot do any more auditions until her grades start to improve. If she truly loves preforming, she'll tow the line and start getting her grades up in order to keep doing shows and recitals. And you have to mean it, too. If she still doesn't do what she needs to, you need to hold firm and not allow her to be involved in the arts. One or two missed shows will bring it home to her that you are dead serious about this in a way that nothing else possibly will.

 

[wdwfan16]

Does everyone need to go to college? possibly not. But has it ever hurt anyone? No. Never. Having an education has never damaged someone. If the only outcome was that they were exposed to more than they would have been otherwise, it is still worth it.

I agree with your post except for the part I quoted. People can be hurt by the crushing students loans they ended up with and found out that their degree did not get them much more than a high school degree did. You can never get rid of SLs. They will get your even it if takes until you get SS in your retirement.

One needs to be smart in balancing what you are going into (earning potential) and the debt you will end up graduating with.

If every adult over the age of 22 has a four year degree it will eventually be worth what a high school degree is.

Also how many college grads will be doing jobs we really needm such as plumbers. Not many. Plumbers can make very good money. It is hard work and very much a needed job. You will have to be an apprentice or the like before becoming a plumber. Who will build our homes, when the market recovers, or do repairs? Mostly laborers and not college grads.

We need a balance. There are needs for college graduates but not all need to be college graduates.

You see what you are told to see as a 16 year old - college or the poor house. Some of us are also telling you it is not exactly as they are telling or you think it is. Your view point is important for a parent to understand how their 16 year old is thinking. But to think that you know more than those with and without college degrees who are in the workforce or were and are now laid-off is just as narrow a thought process. Both have valid points and both need to be considered.

Some kids are better off getting a job for a while and then when they decide what they want they can still go back to college.

 

[luvsJack]

You are also entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

NJ must be different because here you can NOT get your electrical, contractors or plumbing license, etc. without the proper coursework and apprenticeship. You can't just hang out a shingle and say "I'm a plumber", sorry, it doesn't happen here. Even to be a bricklayer you have to take classes at the vo-tech and find someone to take you on as an apprentice.

That is not completely true. For many of these trades you can work your way up. You can learn on the job and then go through the necessary channels to get your license (which going to school does not do for you). As for brick laying, there is a program for that but many many successful brick layers (yes even some that are going to be successful and are starting out today) started out by learning on the job. A lot of bricklayers do not even like to hire someone that went through the programs.



Someone said they were trying to think of trades a young girl could get into besides cosmetology. We have a cosmetology program that is one year. In the same amount of time you can become an LPN, Sugery Tech, Dental Assistant or get a certificate of proficiency in Office Systems Tech. Of course 2 years will do much more, but those are all 1 year vo/tech programs.

 

[wdwfan16]

Your daughter at least has a goal, she loves dance and theater. You've got a bit more "carrot" to use with her than my parents did with me. In your shoes, I'd start with telling your daughter that she cannot do any more auditions until her grades start to improve. If she truly loves preforming, she'll tow the line and start getting her grades up in order to keep doing shows and recitals. And you have to mean it, too. If she still doesn't do what she needs to, you need to hold firm and not allow her to be involved in the arts. One or two missed shows will bring it home to her that you are dead serious about this in a way that nothing else possibly will.

This is the same OP who a month or so ago posted that her DD was doing bad and that they threatened to take away dance. She did not do what they wanted and the OP's DH want to tak away dance. The OP caved and the DD continued to dance. IMHO if she had enforced that rule the DD would have tried harder here to show her parents that she was doing better. The ACT score could have been the carrot to get back her dance.

OP will you now pull the dance or just keep doing what has not worked?

 

[mjkacmom]

I disagree with poor test scores and an average GPA she will be lucky to get into any good school. Why should mom and dad, spend more money? this makes no sense to me! She clearly does not take her schoolwork seriously. Maybe a community college would be a good place for her to start or possibly the military. It certainly was the kick in the pants that I needed when I dropped out of college. To the OP what does your daughter think she is going to do when she grows up if she doesn't have an education?

I agree with this post - with SO many kids going to college, you need a great GPA and test scores to get into ANY school. When I was growing up, I knew I was going to college - not going was never an option. There isn't a single person in my family without at least a BA/BS, and most have a post-graduate degree. I used to work in HR, and many positions required a college degree just for an interview. I know a man who was a successful trader on Wall Street, who lost his job, and had to go back to school, because he was not eligible to be hired by most firms.

 

[wdwfan16]

That is not completely true. For many of these trades you can work your way up. You can learn on the job and then go through the necessary channels to get your license (which going to school does not do for you). As for brick laying, there is a program for that but many many successful brick layers (yes even some that are going to be successful and are starting out today) started out by learning on the job. A lot of bricklayers do not even like to hire someone that went through the programs.

ITA

They start as gophers and then learn and learn and learn on the job. Eventually they take the test that allows them to call themselves plumbers, electricians etc. Some will be unionized but not all have to be.

 

[surfergirl602]

Some kids are better off getting a job for a while and then when they decide what they want they can still go back to college.

Or they can just stay in school on the 7 year plan like my brother did. He couldn't make up his mind what he wanted to do, so he never really had a plan. He just kept taking classes until he found something he liked. Art.
Talk about student loan bills!

 

[luvsJack]

There are way too many parents that act like it is the end of the world if their child does not get a 4 year degree from an ivy league school. It just ain't so.

There are several two year degree programs whose graduates will start out making more money than many, many of their peers with 4 year degrees. And will have many more oportunities in their chosen field. There are a ton of people with 4 year degrees that find it necessary to go back to school and get one of those 2 year degrees because of the job market.

And there are other options that don't even take a two year degree.

My younger ds went to a trade school for less than a year and is now starting out at more than either of his cousins did with 4 year degree. And believe me, we went through all the junk of his not wanting to go to college (he had a 29 on the ACT). But, he found what he loves and now he is doing it and making good money.

Older ds will hopefully go back to college in the future but right now he has a very good career going working for an oil company. And there is no other way to work through that company, than to work from the bottom up. He also makes more than a lot of people with college degrees at the same point in their careers.


Its hard at 17 or 18 years old to suddenly have to decide what you want to do for the REST of your life. Some kids just know, others don't. And yes, they can just go to school and take their basics; but without a plan some won't last long enough to pick a major. It really is best to let them decide.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I got off on a single track last night, so I wanted to offer my full point of view with respect the college vs other career options discussion.

First, college is essential if you want to move into a whole list of careers. And college, even if you never enter the job market, will generally help you in life, as it exposes you to different people and ideas (aside from the education, itself). So I am pro-college for anyone even remotely interested.

That said, it can be harmful. I have seen college destroy the confidence of many kids. I have seen kids who struggled through college struggle through life under the burden of excessive student loans and other associated debt.

A college degree does not come with a career. The success of the individual is up to the individual. All that the degree will get you is an interview, and everything else is up to you. And today, with so many people holding a degree, it probably won't even get you that interview. You need something else to distinguish you from the rest of the crowd.

Companies want employees that can help them RIGHT NOW. Aside from entry level jobs, most hiring managers look for a degree or equivalent experience, and I'll take the experience over the degree 100 times out of 100. I'll take both if I can get them, but experience is just more valuable.

For kids who are not interested in college, they can get at least a 4 year head start on the college crowd in building experience. By the time a kid graduates from college, another kid could be 4 years into a trade, making a great salary, with no student loan debt.

I am college educated, but most of my employees are not (IT field). All of my employees are very well paid. The person that I am training to take my position when I move on does not have a degree. Why him over some of the guys with Masters Degrees? Because he is better equipped to be successful in my job. He has skills that you cannot learn in college, and he has developed them over the years, working in the industry.

I tell my boys that college might open a few doors for them, but their hard work will define their success or failure in the workforce. Find something that you love, and you will be successful - degree or not. The goal should be happiness, not riches...

 

[MELSMICE]

Buckalew--

I wanted to address your feelings about this thread and the "hairstylist" comments. I hope I wasn't one to make it seem like a lowly profession because that certainly wasn't my intention. I would *love* to have a hairstylist in the family. I think everyone needs one as well as a doctor and a lawyer!

I think, though, that you have to be somewhat creative and to want it as a profession. My DD never did and I did offer to send her to Graham Webb rather than go to college but she absolutely did not want it. So my question on this thread was, besides being a hairstylist, what "trade" can a woman go into that can she can make a decent living at if she is not physically inclined to be in a laboring profession? Not all women are cut out to haul pipe, run wire, crawl in ceilings, etc. While some women would love it. If your not inclined to do that, what trade can you go into? Not much for a woman...

Anyway, back to hairstyling. My stylist was "forced" to attend a four year college by her parents. She hated it and when she got out, she went to school for hair and LOVES her job. The downside is that she never gets a Saturday off, she gets very little paid vacation (one week), and her health insurance is crummy. I've had several hairstylists and they all claim that the benefits are not so good in that profession. It's hard job, physically and I think to succeed you have to have a real love of hair design and a creative streak in you.

So I didn't want you to think that I thought it was a lowly profession. It actually seems like great job but since most stylists are employed by small business owners, it seems that get the shaft when it comes to leave and health benefits.

This is not a "trade" for everyone, but I wanted to share my experience. I had no desire to go to college almost 30 years ago & my parents didn't push it. I had danced my entire life & wanted to be a dance instructor. That's all I knew.

Even though my entire life was about dance I still had no direction after high school. I did have office skills from high school & 30 years ago those secretarial skills were somewhat in demand. In got a job part-time at an office, eventually worked full time worked my way up, but not in to any position that paid a ton of money. I continued to teach dance at a studio & when my oldest DD was born I quit my office job & continued teaching.

Things worked out for me as I ended up purchasing the studio I always worked for, but in retrospect I really should have gone to college or a business school to get experience in running a business. I figured I wanted to dance - why do I need college - I can take dance classes anywhere myself & pass the information along to my students.

My oldest loves being a part of the studio & also wants to dance but she is going to school for business. She aspires to take over this studio one day or open her own. In the mean time she is working internships & will, hopefully, get a job working at a company to get some business experience. Honestly, without my DH (who has a marketing degree) & know my DD who is learning so much about business my studio would not be what it is. I have the dance background, but not the business education.

I guess my point is, maybe find "trade" or a passion that you (or your child) loves & figure out what the best form of education will be to pursue that passion. For the hairstylist that is working for someone else a business background would also benefit them. They could open their own salon.

Maybe someone has a passion for interior design - go to school for design & business - opening your own design center. Maybe a flower designer. Work for a flower shop, but get a business degree & open your own shop. If someone likes to bake or cook go to pastry school or culinary school.

I think there are a lot of options for people but you have to sometimes think out of the box with what you might like to do & that includes being aggressive and forging your own path. (this coming from someone who is not a risk taker - but lives with 2 people that are!!!)

 

[agnes!]

I agree with you MELSMICE.

From my time in college & from grad school (getting a Master's degree in an arts field) I know that at least waaaaaay back then the nuts&bolts of running your career were NOT emphasized. A lot of the learning was esoteric, for instance nobody taught us the importance of the various types of networking or other skills that really are important (and that are so obvious to me now it's stupid). I can discuss the Globe Theatre with the best of them but no one taught me how to run my career. I think that every major or field of interest should have a *required* business-management component.

I know things now that I wish someone had taken the time to teach these perfectly obvious things to my younger self...I would most certainly have been in a different stage of my career at this point in my life.

agnes!

 

[Minnesota!]

I can't imagine one for $1000 Around here the school sponsors them and they are $80 AND you can take it as many times as you want for that $80 so if you want to take the ACT 3 times you can take the prep course that many time.



Maybe not everyone is cut out for college but in this day and age if they don't AT LEAST get a 2 year degree their main focus for a career will be how fast you flip burgers--sad but true. Good luck getting hired ANYWHERE without some kind of degree.

You are also entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

NJ must be different because here you can NOT get your electrical, contractors or plumbing license, etc. without the proper coursework and apprenticeship. You can't just hang out a shingle and say "I'm a plumber", sorry, it doesn't happen here. Even to be a bricklayer you have to take classes at the vo-tech and find someone to take you on as an apprentice.

Well here you start in the community colleges or vo-tech schools then take a test and apply for an apprenticeship. Most programs require a 2 year apprenticeship before you can get your masters certification. You then need to become part of the union or you won't get any work.

I have to say your info isn't 100% correct. Many people I know have gotten into the trades without any schooling/training. 2 of my best friends work as roofers for a large company here in the cities. Never had any training in it. Just showed up to the main office in Mpls one day asking about a job and started a few days later. They learned as they went.

My brother was hired - straight out of prison - to be a homebuilder by a huge company here. He worked with them, successfully, for 5 years before he got wind of a job opening at a local welding shop. He jumped ship about 9 months ago and now works for a large welding operation. No skill knowledge there, either. He just knew there was an opening and it paid better than what he was making. Just last week he was promoted to manager. He is overseeing 30 people, and making well over $50K/year. With no degree, no training, no skill.

AAMOF, of all my friends/acquaintences in the trades, none of them have gone to school for it. My BFF's DH is in HVAC. He scored a job with them and after a year, they put him through school. He is still in school, through them, but it wasn't a requirement before he started employment with them.

My brother said that most people coming out of the prison system go right to the trades b/c they take anyone regardless of skill or knowledge.

 

[Minnesota!]

Oh, and I forgot to say - I don't have a degree, either, and make a dang good living at a graphic designer. Learned as I went. I work for a huge company downtown.

 

[Christine]

Oh, and I forgot to say - I don't have a degree, either, and make a dang good living at a graphic designer. Learned as I went. I work for a huge company downtown.

I don't have a degree either and have done very well. But I am in my 40s. Where I work now, for the federal government, you can't even get a job answering the phones without a degree. Sure, the job description may not *require* it, but when 100 of the 105 people applying for the admin job have a 4-year degree or higher, you've lost your chance to get in if you have no other connection.

Where I live, you can pretty much get into the union trades without a degree (they have their own 4-5 year school) but they are giving preference to those applicants, at least in the electrical union, that have degrees. It will only be a matter of time before non-degreed people are shut out of that.

I think that's why many of us parents feel such panic over this. We all know that not everyone is college material nor should be there. I agree with that 100%. But when you are out there working and you see what competition these young adults are up against trying to just get their foot in the door it is disheartening. Of course it is much worse in the white collar/office jobs (where most women end up). I don't like it/don't agree with it for many positions, but it is a fact of life. I don't have a degree and I don't feel hampered at all because I now have so much experience it doesn't matter. This won't help my daughter though.

 

[Goldenbear6]

Not everyone is college material, and that's not all bad. Many people have very rewarding life's without going to college. she could also be a late bloomer, and will go to college later in life.

 

[golfgal]

OP, dd did NO prep at ALL for her ACT. And took all Honors/AP classes without striving to do Excellent in them (She was content with all B's). So when colleges un-weight those weighted courses, her just-over-3.1 is dramatically lower. And with no prep whatsoever for the ACT, her 27 is good but not backed up by any kind of decent GPA. She can get into plenty of schools, we just can't afford them...scholarships are passing her by.

She will attend community college, commuting from home. For 1-2 yrs. Then, she will hopefully transfer to the local State school, which has the major she wants plus the Master's.

I didn't want her to start out in community college, but she really limited her options. I feel I paid for her ACT once. If I thought a couple more points on her score would make all the difference, I'd convince HER to pay to take it again but with her GPA (especially unweighted), she could get a 31 and still be passed over for scholarship money.

Sometimes, they live with what they've set themselves up for, I guess. I feel your pain, though!

I think you are limiting your DD with your lack of research. With her GPA and ACT she will easily get into any state school or smaller liberal arts college, even those that are somewhat selective. Also, there are plenty of scholarships she would qualify for with her dance background and her ACT score. As for paying for college, if you really can't afford a state school there is a VERY good chance you will qualify for financial aid in some form and more of it at a private college. If she scored over 30 on the ACT she would get free ride offers to many, many schools reguardless of her GPA. Also, if she has a full load of AP courses with a B average in those she will be more likely to be accepted then someone with a straight A average with no AP classes. You are putting too much emphasis on her GPA and not enough on her course load, ACT and dance.

I agree with this post - with SO many kids going to college, you need a great GPA and test scores to get into ANY school. When I was growing up, I knew I was going to college - not going was never an option. There isn't a single person in my family without at least a BA/BS, and most have a post-graduate degree. I used to work in HR, and many positions required a college degree just for an interview. I know a man who was a successful trader on Wall Street, who lost his job, and had to go back to school, because he was not eligible to be hired by most firms.

This just is NOT true. You do NOT need a great GPA to get into most schools. If you are applying to highly selective schools, yes, but the vast majority of the colleges/universities around the country don't require a great GPA and an ACT score in the 20's will get you into many, many schools. Now, if your child MUST go to Harvard, that is a different story.

I have to say your info isn't 100% correct. Many people I know have gotten into the trades without any schooling/training. 2 of my best friends work as roofers for a large company here in the cities. Never had any training in it. Just showed up to the main office in Mpls one day asking about a job and started a few days later. They learned as they went.

My brother was hired - straight out of prison - to be a homebuilder by a huge company here. He worked with them, successfully, for 5 years before he got wind of a job opening at a local welding shop. He jumped ship about 9 months ago and now works for a large welding operation. No skill knowledge there, either. He just knew there was an opening and it paid better than what he was making. Just last week he was promoted to manager. He is overseeing 30 people, and making well over $50K/year. With no degree, no training, no skill.

AAMOF, of all my friends/acquaintences in the trades, none of them have gone to school for it. My BFF's DH is in HVAC. He scored a job with them and after a year, they put him through school. He is still in school, through them, but it wasn't a requirement before he started employment with them.

My brother said that most people coming out of the prison system go right to the trades b/c they take anyone regardless of skill or knowledge.

General laborers fall into a different category. To be a plumber, electrician, general contractor, etc. the rules are different. You can hire people to WORK for you that are not, but generally that pay is not very good. Roofing isn't considered a "skilled" trade and the licensing requirements are different.