If you've seen Fahrenheit 9/11, ask & discuss it here.

Nancy,
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
here is a link to the main PNAC web page and here is one toned down version of their obcessions to take over Iraq and their attempts to use the "WMD"
ploy to justify there goal.

Notice how long ago this was being suggested and
note all the people that signed the Letter and remember where they are now and were on 9/11.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

The Honorable William J. Clinton
President of the United States
Washington, DC

Dear Mr. President:

We are writing you because we are convinced that current American
policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a
threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since
the end of the Cold War._ In your upcoming State of the Union
Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined
course for meeting this threat._ We urge you to seize that
opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the
interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world._ That
strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein’s
regime from power._ We stand ready to offer our full support in this
difficult but necessary endeavor.

The policy of “containment” of Saddam Hussein has been steadily
eroding over the past several months._ As recent events have
demonstrated, we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf
War coalition to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam
when he blocks or evades UN inspections._ Our ability to ensure that
Saddam Hussein is not producing weapons of mass destruction,
therefore, has substantially diminished._ Even if full inspections were
eventually to resume, which now seems highly unlikely, experience has
shown that it is difficult if not impossible to monitor Iraq’s chemical
and biological weapons production._ The lengthy period during which
the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has
made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of
Saddam’s secrets._ As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will
be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether
Iraq does or does not possess such weapons.

Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on
the entire Middle East._ It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam
does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as
he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the
safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like
Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the
world’s supply of oil will all be put at hazard._ As you have rightly
declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of
the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this
threat.

Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends
for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and
upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate.
The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that
Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass
destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake
military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means
removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now
needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.

We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration's
attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime
from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political
and military efforts. Although we are fully aware of the dangers and
difficulties in implementing this policy, we believe the dangers of failing
to do so are far greater. We believe the U.S. has the authority under
existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military
steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf. In any case, American
policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on
unanimity in the UN Security Council.

We urge you to act decisively. If you act now to end the threat of
weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. or its allies, you will be
acting in the most fundamental national security interests of the
country. If we accept a course of weakness and drift, we put our
interests and our future at risk.

Sincerely,

Elliott Abrams __ Richard L. Armitage __ William J. Bennett

Jeffrey Bergner __ John Bolton __ Paula Dobriansky

Francis ***uyama __ Robert Kagan __ Zalmay Khalilzad

William Kristol __ Richard Perle __ Peter W. Rodman

Donald Rumsfeld __ William Schneider, Jr. __ Vin Weber

Paul Wolfowitz __ R. James Woolsey __ Robert B. Zoellick
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
You should re-read the article you posted.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Don't need to. I read it completely before posting. So,are you suggesting the ones laughing were not sophisticates? Again, I apologize if you are insulted by the term.
 
Nancy, and anyone else that missed it

here are a couple links to the Dave Letterman interview the other night where Dave and Amb. Joseph Wilson discuss the PNAC and the Yellow cake details that have to do with the lie in the State of the Union speech with the " 16 word"

Amb. Joseph Wilson w/ David Letterman. Mentions PNAC. Video & mp3 here

2 M mp3
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wonk/CBS/LateNight/Letterman.AmbJosephWilson.mp3

23 M vp3
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wonk/CBS/LateNight/Letterman.AmbJosephWilson.vp3

If you can;t load and hear these speak up, the transcript is probably around somewhere.
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
Don't need to. I read it completely before posting. So,are you suggesting the ones laughing were not sophisticates? Again, I apologize if you are insulted by the term.

Oh, so you didn't mis-read the article. You just don't understand it, huh?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 

As is your wont ThreeCircles, you are once again missing the point.

dmadman read the article, but since his opinion of it is different than yours, that *MUST* mean that he didn't understand it.
 
Originally posted by AirForceRocks
As is your wont ThreeCircles, you are once again missing the point.

dmadman read the article, but since his opinion of it is different than yours, that *MUST* mean that he didn't understand it.


Ahh... So, I have it wrong then?

OK. Let me ask you this simple enough question, what is the writer of the article attempting to say about those he describes in his article?

And since dmadman never answered the question, perhaps you can answer for him Brenda. What was his intention in posting the article?
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Ahh... So, I have it wrong then?


And since dmadman never answered the question, perhaps you can answer for him Brenda.

Why would I answer for him? Unlike you answer kbeverina for "jason" the other night, I let posters answer their own questions.
 
/
Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Why would I answer for him? Unlike you answer kbeverina for "jason" the other night, I let posters answer their own questions.

Ah, I don't think that's the case at all. Show me where I did anything but *repeat* what Jason had already stated!
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Oh, so you didn't mis-read the article. You just don't understand it, huh?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Oh I understood it just fine, thank you. I didn't realize it was so easy to get under your skin. Are you really telling me you were insulted by the author making fun of those laughing during the movie?

Or, was the author incorrect to identify those laughing in the Moore movie as sophisticates?
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
Oh I understood it just fine, thank you. I didn't realize it was so easy to get under your skin. Are you really telling me you were insulted by the author making fun of those laughing during the movie?

Or, was the author incorrect to identify those laughing in the Moore movie as sophisticates?

Insulted? No. But that brings up a good point that you have yet to clarify. Why did you post the article again? What, exactly, were your intentions?

I believe I asked this question earlier in the thread but you ignored (or missed) it.
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Ah, I don't think that's the case at all. Show me where I did anything but *repeat* what Jason had already stated!

kbev asked "jason" a question, and you said "he already answered that". So why were you answering kbev at all? Was "jason" unable to tell kbev "I already answered that" or did he need your help to do so?
 
I believe she had asked him four or five times. I was simply attempting to draw attention to the fact that he had indeed answered the question. Not sure that is speaking for him.

Perhaps its very similar to your "suggesting" words for dmadman to use in his posts?
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Insulted? No. But that brings up a good point that you have yet to clarify. Why did you post the article again? What, exactly, were your intentions?

I believe I asked this question earlier in the thread but you ignored (or missed) it.

To share the movie review. I didn't know it was that unclear.
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
Sounds like you were in the same showing as this reviewer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/06/29/do2902.xml

Excited about Fahrenheit 9/11? It's the Palme d'Or-winning and soon-to-be Oscar-winning documentary from average blue-collar multi-millionaire Michael Moore, and it opens in Britain next week. I saw it over the weekend on my side of the Atlantic, with an audience comprised wholly of informed, intelligent sophisticates.



I knew they were informed, intelligent sophisticates because they howled with laughter at every joke about what a bozo Bush is. They split their sides during the patriotic ballad – eagles soaring, etc – composed and sung by John Ashcroft, the famously sinister US Attorney-General. Moore reveals – and if you feel that knowing the plot would spoil the movie, please skip to the next paragraph – that Bush is a privileged simpleton under the control of war-crazed Big Oil interests who arranged to have the 2000 election stolen for him. I hadn't heard that before, had you?

Once Moore gets past his recounting of the Florida recount, I was pleasantly surprised by how much I agreed with in the movie. For example, he's very hard on the Saudis, and the unique access to the Bush family enjoyed by their oleaginous ambassador in Washington, Prince Bandar. He's also very mocking of the absurdities of post-9/11 airport security, alighting on a poor mom forced to drink a beaker of her own breast milk in front of passengers before boarding in order to demonstrate the liquid wasn't anything incendiary.

As we left, the couple ahead of me said they thought Bush would have a hard job responding to these shocking revelations. I didn't like to point out they could have heard about all this stuff years ago just by reading yours truly. I mentioned the breast-milk incident in this very space on August 10, 2002. I called for Prince Bandar to be booted back to Saudi in a Spectator column from November 2002, and I've been urging the dismantling of the kingdom – Washington's out-of-control Frankensaud monster – for almost three years now, since within a month of 9/11.

So in theory I ought to welcome Michael Moore as a comrade in arms. But the trouble with Fahrenheit 9/11 is that you don't come away thinking about the Saudis or America's useless bureaucracy, you come away laughing at Bush.

And, if feeling snobbishly superior to the President isn't your bag, what's left is an incoherent bore. Moore follows his GUT, by which I mean his Grand Universal Theory: Bush is to blame for everything. Because of Bush, the Saudis secretly run US policy. Because of Bush, the Taliban were in bed with Texas energy executives. Because of Bush, the Taliban got toppled.

Whoa, hold up a minute, I thought he was all pals with the Taliban. The Saudis certainly were, which is why they opposed the liberation of Afghanistan. But by now Moore's moved on to pointing out that Bush's Afghan stooge Hamid Karzai used to work for the Texas energy company panting for that big Afghan gas pipeline.

But hang on, I thought the Texan energy guys already had the Taliban in their pockets and were funded by the Saudis. "Connecting the dots" is all very well, but not when you've got more dots in your picture than Seurat.

Bush has always been the issue for Moore. On September 11 itself, his only gripe was that the terrorists had targeted New York and DC instead of Texas or, indeed, my beloved New Hampshire: "They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC and the plane's destination of California – these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!"

The fellows at the controls of those planes were training for 9/11 when Clinton was president and Gore was ahead in the polls, and they'd have still been in the cockpit had Ralph Nader been elected. Though Mohammed Atta took flying lessons in Florida, he apparently wasn't as exercised about its notorious hanging chads as Michael Moore. Mr Moore is guilty of what I believe psychologists call "projection".

The "Why didn't you terrorists kill the Bush voters?" line is not reprised in the movie, but the strange preoccupations it betrays drive the entire picture. Here's the way it works: if Bush is wearing the blue boxer shorts, they're a suspicious personal gift from Crown Prince Abdullah. If Bush is wearing the red boxer shorts, it's a conspiracy to distract public attention from the blue ones he was given by Crown Prince Abdullah. If he's wearing no boxer shorts, it's because he's so dumb he can't find his underwear in the morning.

So, shortly after 9/11, Moore wrote that footage of one of the World Trade Centre planes showed that it was being trailed by an F-16 – ie, the government could have shot it down but chose not to, so it could hit all those Al Gore voters. Imagine if, on September 11, the USAF had blown four passenger jets to kingdom come. Moore's film would be filled with poignant home movies of final Christmases and birthday parties and exploitative footage of anguished parents going to Washington to demand the truth about what happened that day and an end to the lame Bush spin about "threats" to public buildings.

Midway through the picture, a "peace" activist provides a perfect distillation of its argument. He recalls a conversation with an acquaintance, who observed, "bin Laden's a real ******* for killing all those people". "Yeah," says the "pacifist", "but he'll never be as big an ******* as Bush." That's who Michael Moore makes films for: those sophisticates who know that, no matter how many people bin Laden kills, in the assholian stakes he'll always come a distant second to Bush.

I can understand the point of being Michael Moore: there's a lot of money in it. What's harder to figure out is the point of being a devoted follower of Michael Moore. Apparently, the sophisticated, cynical intellectual class is so naïve it'll fall for any old hooey peddled by a preening opportunist burlesque act. If the Saudis were smart, they'd have bought him up years ago, established his anti-Saudi credentials, and then used him to promote the defeat of their nemesis Bush.

Hmm. Maybe they don't need to. Stick him in a headdress and he looks like King Fahd's brother. All I'm saying is connect the dots.

Now, if it were to just share the review, whats with the suggestion that I was in the crowd and dentoing specific sections of the review in bold? What were you suggesting?
 
Thanks for the links to the interviews...I'll read them when I have a few extra minutes.
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Now, if it were to just share the review, whats with the suggestion that I was in the crowd and dentoing specific sections of the review in bold? What were you suggesting?

I just wondered if you were in the same showing the author was, since you said people were laughing at various spots. I wanted to make sure you saw to what I was referring.

Again, are you really taking umbrage with the author referring to them as sophisticates? I now really baffled why you are obsessing over this. Where you one of the sophisticates laughing?
 
For crying out loud Truth, would you PLEASE stop talking about yourself in the third person????? It's really annoying.

The joke (if there ever was one) is old and dead.
 
I didn't realize that the DB was "alive and well" and living on the CB now...

The best piece I've read on Mr. Moore's latest "work" has been the item in Slate by Christopher Hitchens: Link

To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crud would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.

In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. This was, he said, the American way. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something—I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now—has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous "distraction" from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion.

Fahrenheit 9/11 makes the following points about Bin Laden and about Afghanistan, and makes them in this order:

1) The Bin Laden family (if not exactly Osama himself) had a close if convoluted business relationship with the Bush family, through the Carlyle Group.

2) Saudi capital in general is a very large element of foreign investment in the United States.

3) The Unocal company in Texas had been willing to discuss a gas pipeline across Afghanistan with the Taliban, as had other vested interests.

4) The Bush administration sent far too few ground troops to Afghanistan and thus allowed far too many Taliban and al-Qaida members to escape.

5) The Afghan government, in supporting the coalition in Iraq, was purely risible in that its non-army was purely American.

6) The American lives lost in Afghanistan have been wasted. (This I divine from the fact that this supposedly "antiwar" film is dedicated ruefully to all those killed there, as well as in Iraq.)

It must be evident to anyone, despite the rapid-fire way in which Moore's direction eases the audience hastily past the contradictions, that these discrepant scatter shots do not cohere at any point. Either the Saudis run U.S. policy (through family ties or overwhelming economic interest), or they do not. As allies and patrons of the Taliban regime, they either opposed Bush's removal of it, or they did not. (They opposed the removal, all right: They wouldn't even let Tony Blair land his own plane on their soil at the time of the operation.) Either we sent too many troops, or were wrong to send any at all—the latter was Moore's view as late as 2002—or we sent too few. If we were going to make sure no Taliban or al-Qaida forces survived or escaped, we would have had to be more ruthless than I suspect that Mr. Moore is really recommending. And these are simply observations on what is "in" the film. If we turn to the facts that are deliberately left out, we discover that there is an emerging Afghan army, that the country is now a joint NATO responsibility and thus under the protection of the broadest military alliance in history, that it has a new constitution and is preparing against hellish odds to hold a general election, and that at least a million and a half of its former refugees have opted to return. I don't think a pipeline is being constructed yet, not that Afghanistan couldn't do with a pipeline. But a highway from Kabul to Kandahar—an insurance against warlordism and a condition of nation-building—is nearing completion with infinite labor and risk. We also discover that the parties of the Afghan secular left—like the parties of the Iraqi secular left—are strongly in favor of the regime change. But this is not the sort of irony in which Moore chooses to deal.

...snip...

Perhaps vaguely aware that his movie so completely lacks gravitas, Moore concludes with a sonorous reading of some words from George Orwell. The words are taken from 1984 and consist of a third-person analysis of a hypothetical, endless, and contrived war between three superpowers. The clear intention, as clumsily excerpted like this (...) is to suggest that there is no moral distinction between the United States, the Taliban, and the Baath Party and that the war against jihad is about nothing. If Moore had studied a bit more, or at all, he could have read Orwell really saying, and in his own voice, the following:

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …"

And that's just from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.

If Michael Moore had had his way, Slobodan Milosevic would still be the big man in a starved and tyrannical Serbia. Bosnia and Kosovo would have been cleansed and annexed. If Michael Moore had been listened to, Afghanistan would still be under Taliban rule, and Kuwait would have remained part of Iraq. And Iraq itself would still be the personal property of a psychopathic crime family, bargaining covertly with the slave state of North Korea for WMD. You might hope that a retrospective awareness of this kind would induce a little modesty. To the contrary, it is employed to pump air into one of the great sagging blimps of our sorry, mediocre, celeb-rotten culture. Rock the vote, indeed.
 
Originally posted by Geoff_M
I didn't realize that the DB was "alive and well" and living on the CB now...

The best piece I've read on Mr. Moore's latest "work" has been the item in Slade by Christopher Hitchens:

To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability.


This is as far as I got with no need to go on. :)
 

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