If you've seen Fahrenheit 9/11, ask & discuss it here.

[bsnyder]

kbeverina, see my link to the NYT article.

 

[Truth]

Originally posted by kbeverina
Second, there was no attempt to kill Poppy and Bush knew it? I still don't get it, though. If Bush went to war on a personal vendetta, and knew no one tried to kill Poppy, what was the personal vendetta?

No one knows what bush knows or believes.

So does bush know there was no attempt ?
You need to ask him and good luck telling if what he answers is true or not.
The vendetta part is something someone else here said, Truth does not remember Mike using those words but he does show bush saying in tape that
" Sadamn tried to kill my dad "
Maybe that is where the point is getting clouded.

If Truth sees it again before it comes out on tape more attention will be paid to this part to see if vendetta is ever mentiioned by Mike.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by Rutt and Tuke
kbeverina,
Here are Moore's rebuttals to that Newsweek article.

I'll try to break this down into several posts. I have a partial transcript, so that will help, but I think what people thought Moore meant is every bit as important as what he actually said or showed.

For example, the issue of the bin Ladens flying out while flights were still grounded. Looking at the transcript, it seems pretty clear to me that Moore was trying to make people believe that they flew out while flights were still grounded. I don't know why he'd even present the information otherwise. What would be the point? They flew out on that date? So what?

From the transcript:

In the days following September 11th, all commercial and private airline traffic was grounded.

VOICEOVER: The FAA has taken action to close all of the airports in the United States.

VOICEOVER: Even grounding the President's father, former President Bush, on a flight forced to land in Milwaukee. Dozens of travelers stranded, among them, Ricky Martin, due to perform at tonight's Latin Grammy awards.

NARRATOR: Not even Ricky Martin would fly. But really, who wanted to fly? No one. Except the bin Ladens.

(video of plane taking off... song, "We've got to get out of this place")

SEN. BYRON DORGAN: We had some airplanes authorized at the highest levels of our government to fly to pick up Osama bin Laden's family members and others from Saudi Arabia; transport them out of this country.

NARRATOR: It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial plans carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.

Technically, Moore says "after September 13th". But he doesn't clarify that the FAA began to lift the ban on air travel. Why wouldn't he say "when the FAA began to slowly lift the ban on air travel"? Plug that in instead of "after September 13th" and read the transcript again. It makes for a very different read. What is the relevance of the making the point about air travel being banned?

In addition, Richard Clarke said he approved the flights, not the White House.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by Truth
No one knows what bush knows or believes.

So does bush know there was no attempt ?
You need to ask him and good luck telling if what he answers is true or not.
The vendetta part is something someone else here said, Truth does not remember Mike using those words but he does show bush saying in tape that
" Sadamn tried to kill my dad "
Maybe that is where the point is getting clouded.

If Truth sees it again before it comes out on tape more attention will be paid to this part to see if vendetta is ever mentiioned by Mike.

But you said you wished that had been explored. So that was just curiosity, you don't actually subscribe to the personal vendetta theory?

 

[megan4777]

all I have to say is that I REFUSE to watch Michael Moore's film. After his fight that it is actually a "documentary" with Hannah Storm, I refuse to believe him. I may or may not agree with the war in IRAQ but I will tell you something....this film is a freedom of speech and that is it. NOT a documentary, NOT a piece to Enlighten Americans. I think this film is b-o-l-o-g-n-a. and an apple

 

[Truth]

kbeverina,

On the flying the bin ladens when everyone else was grounded confusion, here is what Mike has said happened and he did a lousey of drawing the distinction in the film but if you know what happened you are able to follow it better but still it's sloppy editing at best and an opening for people to get the wrong idea at worse. It is very important that it be made very clear when points as important as this one are made.

ok 1. The bush 41 being grounded refers to the Day of 9/11 after the attacks when nothing was being allowe to take off.
This is too loosely tiesd to the fact that when bush and all these other people were grounded there were several flights that were allowed to take off and travel inside the United states and collect all the 140 Saudi people to a common point where as soon as flights out of the country were allowed they all took off together.

Personally it seems a point that has much less impact now that the truth has been revealed compared to before when the government admitted what was done and was denying anything about it. During the denial period people had known that planes had taken off for the express purpose of helping the bin ladens and other Saudis and it seems people assumed they were flown on out of the country then rather than being ferried to a collection point to await the reopening of the airspace.

Originally posted by kbeverina
But you said you wished that had been explored. So that was just curiosity, you don't actually subscribe to the personal vendetta theory?

Sorry but not with you here . what is " that " in
"wished that had been explored"

If it helps Truth makes no claim to know what, anyone let alone bush, thinks. It seems odd that a person that has said so many things that have been shown to be less than honest would have still have any credability with anyone.

But that's where Dissonance comes into play a lot.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by bsnyder
kbeverina, see my link to the NYT article.

bsnyder thanks!

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by Truth
kbeverina,

On the flying the bin ladens when everyone else was grounded confusion, here is what Mike has said happened and he did a lousey of drawing the distinction in the film but if you know what happened you are able to follow it better but still it's sloppy editing at best and an opening for people to get the wrong idea at worse. It is very important that it be made very clear when points as important as this one are made.

I have a difficult time entertaining the idea that it's "sloppy editing". Everything I've seen so far indicates very meticulous editing and very deliberate placement of clips and quotes and narration.

ok 1. The bush 41 being grounded refers to the Day of 9/11 after the attacks when nothing was being allowe to take off.
This is too loosely tiesd to the fact that when bush and all these other people were grounded there were several flights that were allowed to take off and travel inside the United states and collect all the 140 Saudi people to a common point where as soon as flights out of the country were allowed they all took off together.

So you're saying that Moore was referencing the people who weren't allowed to fly to highlight a point he failed to bring up? Did he bring up these flights that collected the Saudis in one place?

Personally it seems a point that has much less impact now that the truth has been revealed compared to before when the government admitted what was done and was denying anything about it. During the denial period people had known that planes had taken off for the express purpose of helping the bin ladens and other Saudis and it seems people assumed they were flown on out of the country then rather than being ferried to a collection point to await the reopening of the airspace.

No, see the point is Michael Moore wanted people watching that montage of clips, video and narrative to think that the White House authorized bin Laden's relatives to fly out when everyone else, even the former president, was still grounded.

Sorry but not with you here . what is " that " in
"wished that had been explored"

The vendetta. You commented earlier that you wished the vendetta had been explored.

If it helps Truth makes no claim to know what, anyone let alone bush, thinks.

Yes, thank you, that helps very much.

 

[bsnyder]

Originally posted by megan4777
all I have to say is that I REFUSE to watch Michael Moore's film. After his fight that it is actually a "documentary" with Hannah Storm, I refuse to believe him. I may or may not agree with the war in IRAQ but I will tell you something....this film is a freedom of speech and that is it. NOT a documentary, NOT a piece to Enlighten Americans. I think this film is b-o-l-o-g-n-a. and an apple

How about the term "crockumentary"? Works for me!

 

[stemikger]

I hope everyone sees this movie before the election. I was never a Michael Moore fan, but I think he definitely made his case with this documentary. You have to come to your own opinions, but I think it was very enlightening and well done.

 

[Truth]

Originally posted by stemikger
I think it was very enlightening and well done.

stemikger,

could you say two or three main or important things you thought the film showed ?

 

[Truth]

Originally posted by kbeverina
I have a difficult time entertaining the idea that it's "sloppy editing". Everything I've seen so far indicates very meticulous editing and very deliberate placement of clips and quotes and narration.

well there are a lot of points that Truth would have liked to have seen better illustrated, not the least of which was his segment about the election rigging. It hardly seems fair to say he was "meticulous editing " to make sure it was not clear what happened there and then say he was for other areas that might be seen as in favor of an " opposite" point of view.

So you're saying that Moore was referencing the people who weren't allowed to fly to highlight a point he failed to bring up? Did he bring up these flights that collected the Saudis in one place?
he did say it but not in a consice and clear enough way to distingush what he said happened which is what happened and the rumor that many people are aware of the says
RUMOR >>" the bin ladens were allowed to fly out of the country when every one else was grounded."<<
FACT>>" the bin ladens were allowed to fly around the country when every one else was grounded.
and the day the sky was reopened the saudis all flew out from a common collection point."<<

No, see the point is Michael Moore wanted people watching that montage of clips, video and narrative to think that the White House authorized bin Laden's relatives to fly out when everyone else, even the former president, was still grounded.

do you see where if you delete just one word " "OUT"in the preceding paragraph it becomes true ?
"the White House authorized bin Laden's relatives to fly (...) when everyone else, even the former president, was still grounded."

No one else in America got to get to complete their flights that day let alone start new ones
but the Saudis got to be picked up that day for flights that were not even planned the night before or so they would have you think, which seems to be Mike's main point.

The vendetta. You commented earlier that you wished the vendetta had been explored.

not sure where you are on the vendetta still but it seems you have mistaken two seprate issues for one. Truth has little interest in why bush waged an immoral war, all wars are immoral as far as Truth is concerned, the 9/11 events are the mystery that Truth wanted more help exposing and except for shining a light on the Saudis he did little to enlighten people into what happened on 9/11 that allowed the terrorists to succeed.

Yes, thank you, that helps very much.

You are Welcome.

 

[flaps]

edit, ot, sorry.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by stemikger
I hope everyone sees this movie before the election. I was never a Michael Moore fan, but I think he definitely made his case with this documentary. You have to come to your own opinions, but I think it was very enlightening and well done.

Speaking of documentaries, what did you think of "******* The Movie", "JFK", "Titantic" "Peal Harbor" "Nixon" "The Day After Tomorrow"?

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Don't worry, that much is obvious for more than one reason. But, may I ask, you posted the article with specific intentions, did you not? Did you not post it, and bold specific areas, to insult others?

Come now, if you're going to attempt to hide your intentions at least give it a half-hearted attempt!

My apologies. I had no idea you were not a sophisticate and considered the term an insult.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by dmadman43
My apologies. I had no idea you were not a sophisticate and considered the term an insult.

*Notes dmadman's need for quick self-esteem boost.*

*Wonders: Is he like this with "friends?"*

*Wonders further: Did he even read the article or is it that he just doesn't understand it?*

 

[Truth]

How about this,

try to imagine that the troll has more interest in what they are saying than who they appear to be saying it to.

Would that make it easier to be ashamed of engaging in a contest of wits with an opponent of dubious capacity ?

Ventilating fish in a barrel usually requires those involved to aim towards the bottom.

Presented hopefully as a community service and directed not so much at anything dmadman43 says
so much as anyone that thinks dmadman43 says anything that requires a response.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by Truth
How about this,

try to imagine that the troll has more interest in what they are saying than who they appear to be saying it to.

Would that make it easier to be ashamed of engaging in a contest of wits with an opponent of dubious capacity ?

Ventilating fish in a barrel usually requires those involved to aim towards the bottom.

Presented hopefully as a community service and directed not so much at anything dmadman43 says
so much as anyone that thinks dmadman43 says anything that requires a response.

Speaking of yourself, are you?

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles
*Notes dmadman's need for quick self-esteem boost.*

*Wonders: Is he like this with "friends?"*

*Wonders further: Did he even read the article or is it that he just doesn't understand it?*

I'm flattered I occupy your thoughts so much.

Like I said, my apologies if you considered the term "sophisticate" an insult and you don't consider yourself one. I'd always thought it a compliment.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by dmadman43
I'm flattered I occupy your thoughts so much.

Like I said, my apologies if you considered the term "sophisticate" an insult and you don't consider yourself one. I'd always thought it a compliment.

You should re-read the article you posted.