I won't give in till I reach the end... and then I'll start again (comments welcome)

[WillRunForPizza]

Is it just me or doesn't this workout seem a bit pointless?

It does seem counterproductive to have your WU/CD be faster than the rest of your run.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Is it just me or doesn't this workout seem a bit pointless? My GMP is actually slower than the calculated easy pace...

Or is it meant to get me used to running at a specific speed for the marathon?

View attachment 700531

You're using the McMillan plan right? Are they adaptive in any way based on what you've done recently, or are the plans static and this was "as written" when you signed up for the program?

When I type a 2:16 HM into the McMillan calculator, I'm getting the following for endurance pacing:



So the WU/CD appear to be done at the faster "easy runs" area and the longer portion being done at the "long runs". Even from the above you can see that McMillan assigns long run pacing to be slower than easy runs. And recovery jogs are scheduled to be even slower. So if this were some sort of long run type workout it could make sense based on his pacing tree.

Your marathon goal pace for a 2:16 HM runner is a 10:56 min/mile. So since your assigned pace zones are slightly faster than what I'm getting for a 2:16 HM runner, then I'd assume your actual goal pace for the marathon is also faster than 10:56. I get closer to the above ranges using a 2:13 HM. So it's confusing why this is labeled as a "Goal Pace" workout. Do the colors help at all? Is it common for easy/long/marathon pace/HM pace etc to be labeled in different colors? And if so, what has the green color been traditionally?

As for whether it's pointless, I'd say no. If I type a 2:13 HM into my calculator, my assigned long run pace (9% slower than M Tempo) is 11:32 min/mile. The Canova "easy" long run pace would be a 12:42 min/mile, and the late stage hard long run pace capped at 2 hours would be 11:07-11:38. So an 11:26 min/mile is all within this area based on a 2:13 HM fitness level. It's not goal marathon pace, but it will be a fruitful endurance long run.

 

[NYC_MW]

Yeah, I have something similar lately, where one end of the range for warmup/cooldown paces are all faster than my long run goal pace. Not that I'm hitting my paces anyways, but end up aiming for goal pace during the assigned portion and WU/CDing a little easier than that.
It's slightly more hilarious when I look at the assigned "fast finish long run" the weekend before the actual race, where it's definitely more of a slow finish long run...

 

[azrivest]

It's slightly more hilarious when I look at the assigned "fast finish long run" the weekend before the actual race, where it's definitely more of a slow finish long run...

I have this as well. It is slightly hilarious.

You're using the McMillan plan right? Are they adaptive in any way based on what you've done recently, or are the plans static and this was "as written" when you signed up for the program?

Yes, and they are static. The WU/CD pace is based on my recent HM of 2:16 like you say, and the GMP is based on my target marathon time which I put as 5 hours.

I'd assume your actual goal pace for the marathon is also faster than 10:56.

As I wrote, I put a target marathon time of 5 hours when I started the plan. You had told me before that aiming for a 4h40-4h45 would be too optimistic, seeing as this is my first one. And I wholeheartedly agree

The plan has increased the paces slightly from the start though. This was at week 3:


And this is at week 13:

Do the colors help at all? Is it common for easy/long/marathon pace/HM pace etc to be labeled in different colors? And if so, what has the green color been traditionally?

The colors just represent the part of the run in Final Surge. Yellow is for WU/CD, green is for run intervals and blue is for rest intervals.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Ahh this makes sense then. It’s giving you a goal marathon pace of 11:26 because you chose it as appropriate estimated marathon race pace. That also explains why the easy is slightly faster. So definitely not pointless and a valuable workout given the goal marathon pace.

 

[azrivest]

Week 13 of 16 of my first-ever marathon training plan

If I had written this post on Thursday after my Goal Pace run, I'd have written that I feel super confident for the marathon. Writing this today after my longest long run ever, not so confident, but enough that I can hit the 5h30 cutoff.


I'm not at 100%, but I'm better than last week. My paces are way off what they were a few weeks ago, especially if I aim to stay in zone 2. Temps have been very pleasant in the morning, so I can't blame the heat for T+D adjustment. I'm stubborn and proud and seeing those slower paces doesn't make me super happy. Neither does seeing my vo2Max constantly decrease after every run. Like, wth??? It's hard to focus on the end game.


I started late in my nutrition planning, but so far so good. My combination has become:
- Skratch Labs powder in every water bladder or bottle I use, even on short runs. I find that I absorb the water better if it's not just water. I'll pack a 1L bladder with two scoops of Skratch and use the water on the course to complement. I won't plan a second bladder.
- Maurten Gels are a 100% win. As someone else wrote, they have mild marshmellow taste which isn't unpleasant. I won't use just Maurten as each packet is pretty expensive, but I'll use at least one/hour.
- I'll stick to GU gels for the other grams of carbs required per hour.
- Those peanut better pretzels are great. Their saltiness offsets the sugary taste of all those carbs. But they do make me thirsty, they are really salty.
I have another appointment with my nutritionist Tuesday night. We're going to plan my pre-race carb loading and dial in my race nutrition plan.

Summary:

• Running/Walking Distance = 34.98 miles
• Time = 7:01

Monday

• Off

Tuesday

• 60-80 minute Easy Run (Downhill Focus)
• Planned: 1:10:00 @ 6:30-7:00 min/km
  • Completed: 9.07 km ~ 1:10:00 (7:43 min/km)
  • Spent 89% on my run in zone 2
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 3 - Power Program A
  • Completed: 18:05
  • Finally a strength plan that actually makes sense! Phase 3 incorporates more plyometrics and power exercices, which my PT was telling me to do way back in July

Wednesday

• Recovery Day (Off, Cross-Train or Optional Run)
• Planned: 30:00 @ 6:30-7:00 min/km
  • Completed: 3.45 km ~ 28:25 (8:14 min/km)
  • Spent 76% on my run in zone 2

Thursday

• Goal Pace
• Planned: 1-2 mile Warm-Up + 10 miles at Goal Marathon Pace + 1-2 mile Cool-Down
  • Completed: 14 km ~ 1:41:08 (7:13 min/km)
  • Felt great after this run. I hit the GMP on the nose for almost every split. I didn't complete the run because I had to get to work, but I was feeling super confident that I could have maintained that pace for a while longer.
  • Spent most of the run in the dreaded grey zone.
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 3 - Power Program A
  • Completed: Nothing. Planned to do my strength in the evening. I was completely spent and fell asleep on the couch at 6:30

Friday

• Off
  • Completed: Yesterday's strength training

Saturday

• 30-45 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 35:00
  • Completed: 4.75 km ~ 37:19 (7:51 min/km)
• Hey, I can copy/paste last week's summary: I felt frustrated the entire duration of this run. Staying in zone 2 was so hard. My legs felt dead, probably from the power strength training the day before.
• Temps were hot and humid.

Sunday

• 18-20 mile Long Run
• Planned: 19 mi @ 6:32-7:16 min/km
  • Completed: 25.01 km ~ 3:04:19 (7:22 min/km)
• Woot woot! OKay so I didn't do the whole mileage, but I managed to run 25 kilometers. My longest long run ever. But I don't know if I'd have managed another 17k in those conditions. I was done.
• Followed my running group for this one. Which meant my HR zones were all over the place.
• T+D @ Start = 66+63
• T+D @ End = 75+59

I have a difficult week at work coming up. I don't know how I'll fit in all of my planned runs. Might have to plan early morning runs, which are now going to be done in the dark since daylight has gotten much shorter now that it's September.

I can do this. Right?


Happy running!

 

[flav]

I can do this. Right?

Yes you can! Your past week is impressive, all things considered. Keep moving forward

 

[Herding_Cats]

You absolutely CAN do this!

 

[DopeyBadger]

If I had written this post on Thursday after my Goal Pace run, I'd have written that I feel super confident for the marathon. Writing this today after my longest long run ever, not so confident, but enough that I can hit the 5h30 cutoff.

Why the lack of confidence after the 14km run on Thurs and a 3hr run on Sun? You should be close to done after the LR, but you also won't have 4 hrs of running (and 1.5 hrs of that at M pace) on your legs entering the marathon. The taper does great things. You've definitely got this.

 

[striker1064]

What they said.

It's supposed to suck now, but you are done with that part. You got this!

 

[azrivest]

Thanks everyone

 

[azrivest]

you also won't have 4 hrs of running (and 1.5 hrs of that at M pace) on your legs entering the marathon.

 

[GollyGadget]

 

[azrivest]

Week 14 of 16 of my first-ever marathon training plan

You all were right. I absolutely can do this. My confidence level this week is super high, thanks in part to my 3 hour run last week, but also thanks to me feeling much better when running. I'm still not at 100%, I cough occasionally. Stupid C19... A big storm on Tuesday night finally brought lower temperatures to Montreal, so running has been amazing. And I got all green dots on Final Surge, which means I was in range of all my runs. This hadn't happened since the 2nd week of August.

This week was a big week both training wise and work wise. Which meant most of my weekday runs were in the early hours in the dark. I did not see my kids a lot this week. I am so thankful for my husband, as he doesn't mind me being absent for my running in addition to my 50-hour work weeks.

My nutrition is pretty much down. Same as last week with one addition:
- My nutritionist suggested taking in 10g of protein in addition to carbs, since my race is going to be for ~5 hours. I tried a brownie protein bar. Taste was okay, but so dry to eat while running.
- I'll plan a 10/1 run/walk strategy, so I can walk while taking my GUs and my water. I just have such a hard time managing the gel or protein bar intake while running.

Summary:

• Running/Walking Distance = 46.84k/29.11 miles
• Time = 5:41

Monday

• Off

Tuesday

• 50-60 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 55:00 @ 6:30-7:00 min/km
  • Completed: 7.13 km ~ 52:48 (7:24 min/km)
  • Spent 58% of my run in zone 2, but pace was faster than last week's
  • Since I did this at 5am, I dressed in purple and pink and did a tribute run to Eliza Fletcher. Freaky to run in the dark thinking about her and the situation constantly.
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 3 - Power Program A
  • Completed: 16:04

Wednesday

• Recovery Day (Off, Cross-Train or Optional Run)
• Planned: 30:00 @ 6:30-7:00 min/km
  • Completed: 3.67 km ~ 30:06 (8:12 min/km)
  • Spent 70% of my run in zone 2
  • It was pouring out so I ran inside. Considering I did this on the treadmill, the result wasn't bad. I dunno why but I really struggle with my pace and HR when I'm inside.

Thursday

• Hill Workout (Uphill & Downhill)
• Planned: 15-20 min WU + Up & Downhill Repeats: 4-6 times 75s uphill (6-8% grade) at 5k effort or harder + 6-8 times 30s downhill (1-3% decline grade) at half-marathon effort + 15-20 min CD
  • Completed: 9.01 km ~ 1:05:55 (7:19 min/km)
  • Uphill paces (in mi): 8:53, 9:55, 8:53, 9:03, 9:35, 9:31
  • Downhill: 9:24, 9:10, 9:05, 9:30, 9:00, 8:31, 8:46, 8:55
  • If someone can explain grade %, I'd appreciate it. I'm an engineer, so calculating a 6% grade is no biggie math-wise. But what does that represent in real life? I used the same hill for both the uphill and downhill efforts, so I "cheated" the downhill, cause that's much faster than HM effort. But I just didn't know what to use.
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 3 - Power Program B
  • Completed: Nothing. I had already run over an hour and had a crazy day at work waiting for me so I pushed the strength training to Saturday.

Friday

• Off

Saturday

• 30-45 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 35:00 @ 6:30-7:00 min/km
  • Completed: 4.9 km ~ 34:30 (7:02 min/km)
  • Drills: done
• I don't need to copy/paste last week's summary. For the first time in forever, I felt great. I hit my paces and I spent 62% of my run in zone 2, which means I didn't have to push too much.
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 3 - Power Program B
  • Completed: 9:47

Sunday

• Fast Finish Long Run
• Planned: 8-10 mi @ 6:32-7:16 min/km + 6-8 mi @ GMP
  • Completed: 13.12 mi ~ 2:26:40 (6:56 min/km)
• Temp was amaze-balls, 13C with a slight drizzle. I felt like I was on fire and I could have run longer. I could have hit the 14 planned miles, but I wanted to stop at 2h30 to run a bit less than less week.
• My confidence level was through the roof. I hit my paces. My HR was mostly in zone 3, so not great, but my RPE was dead-on.
• My running group does 10/1 for long runs, which will be a perfect strategy for my marathon. I'll take some water every 10 minutes and one gel every 20 minutes.

So I feel great today and I'm super confident I'll be able to finish my marathon.

Big thanks again to all of you who have cheered me on these past 3 months

Happy running!

 

[HangWithMerida]

It‘s good to see your confidence bouncing back. You are doing great! I felt that comment about not seeing your kids a lot. Those long weeks are still coming up for me and they are kind of looming. It’s a hard place to be but, like you, I have a very supportive husband. That support is so important!

 

[azrivest]

Okay so taper is supposed to start this week. Then why is my McMillan running plan increasing my training paces again? Seems so counter productive.

I'll give my final opinion after my race. So far, I've liked the planning and the variety of workouts in the training plan. But the plan seems it was too aggressive for my fitness level. I chose a Level 2 plan because it offered 4-6 workouts per week, compared to only 4 in Level 1, and I wanted at least 5 runs a week.

This is my plan for this week:
Tu - 60-80 minute Easy Run @ 6:27-6:56 min/km, so a few seconds / km faster than last week
We - 30 minute Recovery Run
Th - 15 minute WU + Tempo Interval Workout: 3 x 1600 meters (@ 5k pace!) with 3 minutes recovery jog followed by 3 times 200 meters with 200 meter recovery jog + 15 minute CD
Sa - 30-45 minute Easy Run @ 6:27-6:56 min/km
Su - Fast Finish Long Run: 12 miles total with the last 6 miles at Goal Marathon Pace or faster. I am going to cut this down a bit too so it's less than my 13 miles of yesterday.

And the next:
Tu - 30-45 minute Easy Run
We - 30 minute Recovery Run
Th - 15 minute WU + Tempo Run: 10 minutes + 15 minute CD
Sa - 20 minute Easy Run
Su - Marathon

Isn't this a bit too intense for tapering, especially this week?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Then why is my McMillan running plan increasing my training paces again?

It's a little surprising to up the paces this close to race day. I guess the presumption is that the load is falling and so you'll potentially feel fresher to hit harder paces which will be equal effort levels to recent training. If that makes sense. But that's just a guess, and not something I see typically done.

Isn't this a bit too intense for tapering, especially this week?

I wouldn't necessarily say that. He very clearly is using a tapering pattern that absolutely drops the floor out the week of the race. Based on research I've read, the race week mileage is ideally about 40-60% of the peak. You peaked at 7.5 hrs and 35 miles (per Strava). So the 40-60% window would be about 3-4.5 hrs not including the marathon itself. He has you scheduled for 2:10 hrs, or about 29% peak. I think he's countering this complete bottom out approach with a still reasonably high amount of training in the week prior. It's maybe something around 5.8 hrs with two hard workouts. That's about 77% peak, and honestly that's not too bad. From memory, I believe a traditional taper is something around 80-90%, then 70-80%, then 40-60%. So not too intense.

 

[azrivest]

Wow you're good. I've calculated that I should run 5h45 this week, so pretty close to 5.8 hours. It's about 68% of the peak week which was supposed to be 8h25. Because I cut my long run shorter than the planned 19 miles, I capped at 7h30 in week 13.

Week 13 = 100%
Week 14 = 74%
Week 15 = 68%
Week 16 = 25%

Okay I'll stick to the plan. Thanks!

 

[azrivest]

Week 15 of 16 of my first-ever marathon training plan

I don't know how, but I ended up doing about the same time and distance as last week, even though my long run was shorter. Strength training was back to the "Stability" phase of McMillan's Strength in Stride program.

I'm looking forward to having a down week before the big day on Sunday in terms of running. I might really scale back to only run 2 or 3 times this week, including my shakedown run on Saturday. I'll do the bare minimum to keep me ready for race day and to allow my body to recuperate. There are also no more strength trainings planned: "We'll avoid strength training in race week. We want all our energy stored up for the race itself."

In other news, I'm going to Pittsburgh for an important work conference. I'll be a speaker in front of over 200 people and I'll have to entertain clients day and night. I'll still try to take it easy: go to bed early, no alcohol, etc. Fingers crossed nothing happens with my flight back on Friday. The last time to pickup my bib is at 5pm on Saturday afternoon.

I'm super nervous about the conference, and then about the marathon cutoff. I'll probably be in one of the last corrals that start around 8h45-8h55. I'll have about 4h15 to get to the cutoff point: "Runners have 4 hours and 12 minutes to get to kilometer 32.2. Runners who arrive at this point after 1:08 pm will have to stop and take the bus to the finish line." So if I start in the last corral, I have to maintain a 7:55min/k pace. It's totally doable given my current fitness level, but it just adds to my stress to have this limit.



Summary:

• Running/Walking Distance = 46.05k/28.62 miles
• Time = 5:34

Monday

• Off

Tuesday

• 60-80 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 1:10:00 @ 6:27-6:56 min/km
  • Completed: 9.45 km ~ 1:10:01 (7:24 min/km)
  • 69% in zone 2
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 1 - Stability Program A
  • Completed: 16:10

Wednesday

• Recovery Day (Off, Cross-Train or Optional Run)
• Planned: 30:00 @ 6:27-6:56 min/km
  • Completed: 7 km ~ 49:04 (7:00 min/km)
  • Pushed this one too much. Went with my running group and they tacked on 8 sets of 30:30 running at the end.

Thursday

• Tempo Intervals
• Planned: 10-20 min WU + Tempo Interval Workout: 3 x 1600 meters with 3 minutes recovery jog followed by 3 times 200 meters with 200 meter recovery jog + 10-20 min CD
  • Completed: 10 km ~ 1:12:26 (7:14 min/km)
  • 1600m: 9:14, 10:06, 10:17
  • 200m: 0:27 (cut this one short), 1:01, 1:02
  • I was probably too tired from the previous day's run. I couldn't hit the paces for the mile repeats. Did what I could.
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 1 - Stability Program B
  • Completed: 12:42

Friday

• Moved Saturday's run up to today to go trail running with my brother
• Planned: 30:00 @ 6:27-6:56 min/km
  • Completed: 4.18 km ~ 35:36 (8:31 min/km)
  • This was for the fun of it.
• Went for a leg massage in the evening. She really worked my calves and my knees.

Saturday

• Off

Sunday

• Fast Finish Long Run
• Planned: 6 mi @ 6:28-7:12 min/km + 6 mi @ GMP
  • Completed: 15.42 km ~ 1:47:03 (6:56 min/km)
• Went again with my brother, who always pushes me a bit.

Only 7 days until the big day. Aladdin says it best:

Happy running!

 

[NYC_MW]

Good luck!!! Been avidly reading your journal since I'm also doing a McMillan marathon plan and my race is a week after yours. Looking forward to reading your race report!!