I think the tide is starting to turn AGAINST the war..

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goofygirl

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Over the weekend and today (3/24) I can see that the war has gotten uglier, and the media has caught on.

We now have fallen soldiers, dead media people (from Britian), POWs and MIA's. Some British were shot down by our "friendly fire" too. What is Tony Blair going to say about that? Will British support still be as strong?

There's also been news that its not as easy or short as we thought it would be. Saddam may still be alive after all. And his men are fighting back.

The DOW closed down 300 points today. Just last week, it was booming. It was down today because of "war fears".

On NBC NEWS tonight, there was a report about how costly this war is, and how the economy is already suffering. The travel industry is taking a big hit especially.

There was another story on the news- a man lost his military son and said: "President Bush, you took my ONLY SON." I take it that he wont be voting for Bush in 2004.
This was followed by anti-war protest stories.

Anyone else feel this change in the "war barometer"?
 
I think some in the US may have thought it would be fast and easy, because of the Gulf War. This war is just beginning. It is far too early to assume anything. The tide will undoubtedly change many, many, times.
I do feel that too many people are viewing this as some sort of video game, because it's happening right in front of them on the TV screen. Like a video game, they want instant results. Hopefully, the majority in the US have a greater attention span than that. These are real people, real weapons, and they live real lives. It is the few who want the instant gratification who need to get real.
As for the "friendly fire", I think it is to be expected. It is tragic, but it happens.
 
Originally posted by goofygirl

Anyone else feel this change in the "war barometer"?

If you only listen to the media, then yes, I can see how you might sense a change. However, if you listen to the President and the real people running the war, I sense no change at all. They have always cautioned that the war would not be quick or easy.
 
Everybody need to put things in perspective. The land war in Gulf War I lasted 100 hours... after 6 weeks of heavy bombing. It also cost the lives of around 300 allied personnel. Here were a couple of good pieces that helped settle this issue with me today:

WINNING BIG

By RALPH PETERS

March 24, 2003 -- IN combat, the ideal leader is the man who remains calm and methodical under fire. Today's 24/7 broadcast news demands just the opposite: raised voices, an atmosphere of crisis and a rush to judgment.

After declaring victory on Friday and Saturday, a number of media outlets all but announced our defeat yesterday, treating the routine events of warfare as if they were disasters.

Nonsense.

We're winning, the Iraqis are losing, and the American people have executive seats for what may prove to be the most successful military campaign in history.

I do recognize that the majority of our journalists are doing their best to cover this war accurately and fairly. But, with a few admirable exceptions, even seasoned reporters lack the perspective needed to judge the war's progress. Few have read military history. Even fewer have served in the military. They simply don't understand what they are seeing.

Every low-level firefight seems a great battle to them. Each pause in the advance is read as a worrisome delay. While they see friendly casualties up close, they rarely witness the devastation inflicted on our enemies. And when isolated groups of Iraqis do stand and fight, the journalists imply it means the Iraqi people are opposed to our intervention.

Let's try to understand what's actually happening.

Is Iraqi resistance a surprise? No. And it isn't nearly as strong as some reporting suggests. In a nation of 22 million people, 1 to 2 million have a stake in Saddam's regime - the officers in "elite" units, corrupt Baath Party officials, secret policemen and all those who have enjoyed good careers at the expense of the other 20 million of their countrymen - who all want Saddam dead.

Some thousands of Iraqis will fight to the death. Out of 22 million.

But wasn't the war supposed to be a cakewalk? No responsible official ever said this would be a bloodless war. The pundits who suggested such nonsense never served in uniform themselves. Anyone with the least knowledge of warfare expected some measure of resistance - and friendly casualties.

Were we less humane, of course, this war would have gone even faster. We could have destroyed the Iraqi military in days, killing tens of thousands of their soldiers from the sky. Instead, we have been trying to spare lives by giving our enemies a chance to surrender. Many are doing just that - or simply deserting and going home.

But what about the Iraqis still resisting in the cities in the south, such as Um Qasr and Basra? Those are small groups of die-hard regime supporters, thugs from the security forces that answer directly to Saddam's sons. Their fates are tied to Saddam's rule. Many of the men firing at our troops from building or bunkers in the south would be killed by their fellow Iraqis if they laid down their arms.

Haven't they tricked us? If they have, the tricks weren't very effective. CENTCOM did confirm that, in several instances, Iraqi elements pretended to surrender, then opened fire on our troops. Others have worn civilian clothes to ambush resupply convoys. These are not regular Iraqi army forces or even members of the Republican Guards. They appear to be from the fidayeen, gangs of murderous thugs, and from the security services and the Special Republican Guards - the regime's Gestapo and SS.

While they certainly want to kill allied troops, their most important mission is to make it harder for all the thousands of Iraqi soldiers who truly do want to surrender. They want to convince us to fire on white flags. But we won't.

And the perpetrators of these fake surrenders, as well as those using civilian clothes to stage ambushes, are war criminals. Both the traditional laws of war and the Geneva Convention prohibit such actions. If captured, these men could be executed on the spot, with complete legality. But we're too decent to do that - even to them.

In the end, all the Iraqi irregular forces are accomplishing is to make our troops more determined. The latest message I had from a friend serving in the war made it clear that our troops are enraged, not deterred, by Iraqi actions - not least by the execution in cold blood of American prisoners and the abuse of other POWs.

Hey, weren't all those cities in the south supposed to be secure? No. Even in Um Qasr, our priority was to secure key port facilities, not to occupy neighborhoods. Consistently, allied forces have bypassed major population centers to avoid getting drawn into urban combat and causing needless harm to civilians.

A great deal of potential resistance can simply be left to wither away. Some Iraqis are zealots - for instance, the Sunni Baath Party enforcers now stranded behind our lines. They will either die or be taken prisoner.

Isn't that risky, just bypassing entire cities? Yes. In war, calculated risks are required. Our British allies are fond of saying that "Fortune favors the bold." You don't win wars through timidity. Our lead ground forces were more than two-thirds of the way to Baghdad yesterday. That sort of progress is unprecedented in the annals of warfare. But it does leave some potentially dangerous enemy elements in the rear.

We are relying on speed to operate "inside the Iraqi decision cycle" - to keep the enemy on the ropes, physically and psychologically. We are aiming for a large-scale, operational victory. But the inherent risks mean that there will continue to be sharp tactical encounters - isolated, but deadly - behind our advancing tanks.

It sounds like there have been big, tough battles all of a sudden. No. Every fight is tough for the soldiers under fire, of course. But what the broadcast media reported as significant battles consistently have been one-sided tactical encounters, with overwhelming casualties on the Iraqi side.

When our forces pause to destroy enemy forces methodically, that is a sign of professionalism and common sense, not of fear or a reverse. Cameramen might wish our troops would charge wildly into the enemy machines guns, but that's not the American way of war. When faced with a dangerous situation - if the mission allows us the time - we break contact to a distance that allows us to call down a storm of mortar fire, field artillery and airstrikes on the enemy. Whenever possible, we spend shells, not bodies.

Still, there are times when our forces have to get up close and personal with the enemy, as the Marines did in Nasiriyah yesterday. When that happens, we win. Period.

So you think we can just roll on to Baghdad, huh? No. We'll get to Baghdad in due time and in good shape. Several Republican Guard divisions may make the mistake of trying to take us on in large-scale battles as we move closer to the city.

If they do, there may be some intense tactical encounters. But those Iraqi divisions will be attacked so ferociously that a key decision for Gen. Tommy Franks will be when to turn off our destructive power and spare the survivors.

Will they use chemical weapons? That remains the greatest single risk to our troops and to the Iraqi population. If any weapons of mass destruction are used, it may slow us down for a time - and there could be painful casualties - but any such attacks will only strengthen our resolve, while proving to the world that we were right all along about the threat posed by Saddam.

But we've taken casualties and American soldiers have been captured - doesn't that mean we're in trouble? No. I wish it were otherwise, but, in any war - especially one of this magnitude - soldiers die, suffer wounds, or fall into enemy hands. We cherish every servicemember and mourn every loss. But, to be frank, our losses thus far are remarkably low, given the scale of our enterprise.

We may lose considerably higher numbers of casualties before this war is over. But I can promise you that our military commanders are relieved by the low level of our losses to date.

Are the Iraqis really trying to lure us deep into their country so they can spring a trap on our forces? The Iraqis have no choice in the matter. Our troops go where they want to go.

Yes, the Iraqis are probably planning a large military confrontation, an operational-level ambush, close to Baghdad - while forces remaining in our rear area attack our supply lines. They may even have left some of the bridges across the Euphrates standing on purpose.

If so, it was a grave error. If those Republican Guards divisions confront our forces, they simply will not survive. Even if their plan includes the use of chemical weapons.

Thus far, our troops have performed magnificently, seizing an ever-growing list of airfields, bridges, roads, oil fields and other critical infrastructure, enabling us to maneuver swiftly and freely, while preserving the backbone of Iraq's economy for its people. And we prevented an ecological catastrophe, although those on the left will never credit us for doing so.

Even if the Iraqis have some ambitious master plan they still believe they can spring on us, they never expected to lose so much of their country so quickly. They are reeling; any plan could only be executed piecemeal, at this point.

After less than four days of ground operations, the Iraqis have lost control over half their country, they have lost control over most of their military, and allied forces are closing in on Baghdad.

But what about the "Battle of Baghdad"? Will it be a bloodbath? Haven't the Iraqis already lured us into urban warfare in the south? No. The Iraqis haven't lured us into anything. We have consistently imposed our plan and our will upon the enemy. While there have been some incidences of urban combat to date, with friendly casualties, our forces are far better prepared for such encounters than are the Iraqis. The Marine Corps, especially, has been training intensively in urban environments.

We are not going to be lured into a "Stalingrad" in Baghdad. Ignore the prophets of doom, who have been wrong consistently. As this column has steadily maintained, we have time, but Saddam doesn't. If we have to sit in a ring around Baghdad for several weeks while the last resistance is dismantled in innovative ways, then that's what we'll do.

Grave dangers lie ahead. Only a fool would underestimate them. But this war is not being run against a clock. The counsel that we must all be patient and let our troops do their jobs remains the best a former soldier can offer.

As long as the American people keep their perspective - which they will - it really doesn't matter how many journalists lose theirs.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/71625.htm

Another article, by Jim Lileks... Here's a snippet:
Well, that’s it. War’s lost. It’s amazing how fast things change; in Afghanistan, it took three weeks before someone whispered “Quagmire” and all was forsaken; this time it took but five days before an intrepid reporter stood up at a briefing and asked the military spokesman whether the specter of Vietnam loomed again over the swaggering, clay-footed giant of American power. Right now on TV some reporter is interviewing some bulky pink ex-general about BLACK SUNDAY, noting that everything was going magnificently on Friday, and now we’re meeting - are you ready for this? - resistance.

The BBC (about which I will say more later) is reporting that the mood at CentCom is morose and dispirited; I get the impression that Tommy Franks has retired to his bunk in tears, and most of the officers are are 24-hour suicide watch. Ten Marines dead. No one expected that. The plans called for zero casualties, after all. This changes everything. Rip up the war plan.

At Normandy ten men died every second. Up and down the coast. All the damn day long.

http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/03/0303/032403.html
 

Geoff_M, nice research and a timely addition of some real perspective. The "worst" day of this war so far was still better than our best day in Vietnam, Korea and WWII combined. The big difference now is that we are seeing it all unfold live on TV.

Unfortunately, as the old saying goes, "perception is reality." If Americans start to get a little queasy about the war and public opinion turns decidedly against it, things could get very ugly. This is exactly why the Arab TV stations have been hammering the footage of captured Americans down everyone's throats. These people are smarter than we think. They are keenly aware of the fact that when the soccer moms start seeing pictures of dead bodies, it undermines support for our government.
 
I seriously hope that the decision to spare Iraqi TV transmission sites are revisited and they have their "plugs pulled" soon.

In a nutshell... We've overrun around 75% of the country in less than six days. Also, Isreal hasn't been attacked by Scuds and it looks like we control the "Scud Box" area where such attacks would be launched. Keeping them on the sidelines makes things a lot easier in that part of the world.
 
There was another story on the news- a man lost his military son and said: "President Bush, you took my ONLY SON." I take it that he wont be voting for Bush in 2004.
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I saw this man on the news tonight. I can't speak from experience, but I know that has to be a gut wrenching devestating feeling to lose a child:(
 
As a "soccer mom" (sans the soccer), I feel much more strongly after hearing about the POW video and seeing a couple of the pictures. Our government has more of my support- not less.

I agree that we should pull the plug on their TV transmission. I think they enjoy seeing that video played over and over.
 
Anyone else feel this change in the "war barometer"?

GG, I think you are seriously underestimating the resolve of the American military and coalition forces, and this Administration, but mostly, the resolve of the American people.

Even after the difficulties we faced yesterday, poll numbers are in the 70% range for support for the war. IMO, the film footage of our dead soldiers (who were obviously killed by the Iraqis execution style) is only going to harden that resolve!

And I'm curious, would you actually advocate that we withdraw at this point? I'd also be interested to know what the man interviewed tonight would think about doing that. It seems to me that would mean his son died for nothing!
 
Col. Hunt on Fox News just said that they have their TV station in the middle of a daycare center, so that we won't bomb it. :mad:
 
It seems to me that would mean his son died for nothing!


I can't speak for him, but if I were in his shoes most likely I would have alot of resentment in me about losing my child. Maybe there are people on this earth who look at people dying in battle as Patriotic or THEY DIED FOR THEIR COUNTRY.

Honestly I could not find comfort in that at all.
 
It seems to be that there are a lot of people that hope that this is the case and they are trying to promote the idea but it's not really floating with the average american. I think most people have reacted to the news in the last couple days as I have, with a stronger resolve to get this job done and get our POWs back.
 
Originally posted by PRINCESS Ariel34
It seems to me that would mean his son died for nothing!


I can't speak for him, but if I were in his shoes most likely I would have alot of resentment in me about losing my child. Maybe there are people on this earth who look at people dying in battle as Patriotic or THEY DIED FOR THEIR COUNTRY.

Honestly I could not find comfort in that at all.

Princess Ariel, I take this to mean that you would advocate completely disarming and disbanding our military?

I've had family members in every generation going back over a hundred years who have died in battle, and yes, I definitely think they died for their country, and for my (and your) freedom. It IS a comfort to ME.
 
Disnee Dad Says.............................

.British support is rising, Tony may soon be a hero!
2. People with a clue never thought this would be easy or short. And even the 90 days I thought it would take is incredibly short.
3. The dow is down 300 because the dow was up over 900 the last 8 days. The poeple who grabed 10-12% in less than two weeks said "ya, I'll pocket some of that!"
4. Travel is suffering because weak people are afraid to live their normal life.We travel where we want, when we want, if we die, we die. It's more likely to happen at home, or nearby anyways!
Death by car is 1000 times more likely than death by airplane.And I hate to fly!
You are right, the barometer of war is changing, only your barometer appears to to be broken.
 
Princess Ariel, I take this to mean that you would advocate completely disarming and disbanding our military?

I've had family members in every generation going back over a hundred years who have died in battle, and yes, I definitely think they died for their country, and for my (and your) freedom. It IS a comfort to ME.
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bsnyder not everyone including myself feel the way you do! Even though I support the troops and what they are doing I STILL HATE THIS WAR!!

One thing I noticed is when a person dissagree with what is going on with this war, people who are for war want others to provide a link to prove their point, provide data so people can see proof, called unpatriotic, or my favorite-- if a link isn't posted than they supposedly don't have a leg to stand on in some people minds.

Honestly NONE of thee above matter to me. NOone has to agree with me just like I don't have to agree with anyone here. I honestly DO NOT feel the need, nor will I go out of my way to try and convince anyone why I am against this war.
 
Ariel, I hate this war too! Why do you automatically assume that just because I think the war has to be fought that means that I'm somehow enjoying it? :confused: :confused:

I'm not questioning your right to feel the way you do at all. I respect the fact that we all have varying feelings about this situation. I certainly haven't called you unpatriotic, because I don't think you are.

I just simply asked you a question, about whether you think that our military should be disbanded.
 
bsnyder, I was not referring to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was speaking in general about how some people react when someone doesn't agree with them.


whether you think that our military should be disbanded.
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I would say yes. If we lived in a perfect world where violence did not exist Since this is reality all I can do is continue to pray that things end soon.
 
Originally posted by PRINCESS Ariel34
There was another story on the news- a man lost his military son and said: "President Bush, you took my ONLY SON." I take it that he wont be voting for Bush in 2004.
_______________________________________________

I saw this man on the news tonight. I can't speak from experience, but I know that has to be a gut wrenching devestating feeling to lose a child:(
He had to know that when his son signed up that this was a very real possibility. I think right now he's grieving & a little irrational right now.

All of the troops I've had contact with, including friends, agree that going in is the right call.

No one loves war, but sometimes it's necessary & I (like most Americans) believe that this one of those times.
 
I think the media can easily turn the tide in this war. But only with the uneducated and misinformed who get the perspective of the war from one source. I feel if someone educates themselves and tries not to rely on one media source and thinks things through logically and with a broad vision, well then I think that person would think the war is going well. But for those who expect a quick first round knock out of Saddam and Iraq. then those are the ones who will change their minds of this war. and that demographic is probably around 20% so the tides of war could change with any poll you see.
 
We are 5 short days into this war. The only thing that has shocked me is the poeple who are surprised by the reality of it all. There is no way we are going to go to war and not have casualties and POWs. It is a fact of war. It stinks. Are people so naive and impatient that they think this was going to be a cakewalk?

To answer the question, NO, I don't think the tides are changing. I supported going to war, I support the finishing of this, I feel our military is doing a superb job. Most people I have talked to feel pretty much the same way they did before.
NOone has to agree with me just like I don't have to agree with anyone here. I honestly DO NOT feel the need, nor will I go out of my way to try and convince anyone why I am against this war.
Who asked you to 'convince anyone why you are against this war'?...:confused:
 
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