I need some advice, serious problem (update 05/05/09)

[kdzgon]

kdzgon -- I don't think you need to worry about flames or warnings. There is nothing in your post that would warrant either. Your questions and comments are perfectly legitimate, although you have one important fact wrong.

As mentioned above, I am NOT a mod, so please don't hold the DISboards responsible for something I post! If someone wants to take issue with something I post, that's fine -- but don't take it out on the poor mods!

I also have not really been involved very much in this situation, other than to make a few comments and suggestions along the way. My comments are my own, not from anyone else, and many of them are similar to comments by other posters.

I recognize that there are at least two sides to this story, and I am only aware of part of one of those sides. My issues with this owner are simply that he has repeatedly made promises to the OP which he has not kept. If he'd just keep his word, I think a lot of his problems would go away.

Unfortunately, I also know of three additional DIS members who have had significant problems with this same owner. None of them lost any money, and all of their vacations eventually were fulfilled, but they went through a lot of aggravation and stress because all communications seemed to cease as soon as they paid in full. And, in some cases, there was also a pattern of broken promises, just like OP had.

So, if someone asked me if I thought they should rent from this guy, I would certainly tell them no. This guy's virtually a guaranteed nightmare to do business with. That's just my opinion, of course -- certainly not the opinion of the DIS management.

I do apologize personally to you, and publicly. My original post did not intend to convey I thought your opinions were those of Management - I was thinking as a Moderator you are well-versed in the rules. So, OK - not a Moderator - as I said in my prior post, I think it is because you are both knowledgeable and helpful...but you are still well-versed, and I truly appreciate your personal opinions when posted. I meant no offense thinking you were a Mod, and it is certainly no offense to the Mods either that I keep thinking you are one!

I believe you have every right to have - and express - opinions, including about this owner, assuming (as with all of us) your posts conform to the DIS requirements. I just think that some posters have posted offensive posts that IMO included personal attacks.

And, while I know you want to help and were instrumental in handling the other rental problem, I truly believe this is a different situation. I don't know that I am all that comfortable knowing that if I upset a poster at the DIS (as opposed to committing a crime such as fraud), I can run the risk of someone sharing my personal info with a total stranger with no true connection to me. In fact, I run the risk of my personal information being shared simply because I choose to rent a few points! I'm not so sure posts such as those belong on a public board, especially one as large as the DIS. Certainly anyone reading this thread is able to send a PM to lovesmy3babes if they sense a similarity, but someone (even an apparently level-headed knowledgeable person) posting an offer to have people share (potentially my) personal information so you can compare it to your info simply doesn't sit well with me.

 

[kdzgon]

Again, I think there might be some confusion...it is my understanding that Jim is not disclosing the owner's name, just confirming whether the name given to him by renters is the same person....

I didn't think Jim was releasing the information. However, in order for Jim to confirm, the renters must disclose personal information TO Jim. I'm not so comfortable having someone post such an offer on a public thread, encouraging others to share personal info on an owner that is likely completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

 

[crisi]

Here are the terms of the cancellation in the contract from her first post:

If Renter wishes to cancel the reservation, Member will make reasonable efforts to assist Renter to cancel the reservation on a timely basis. Cancellation must take place 31 days or more in advance of arrival to avoid penalties. Renter will be repaid for any points that are not subject to any restrictions and are returned to their original Disney Vacation Club status and use year. Points that are in holding accounts, or are subject to banking or borrowing restrictions or are permanently transferred outside of the Disney Vacation Club resort collection are repaid only if Member can rent them and only to the extent of any rental payments received by Member for such points up to and not to exceed the amounts paid by Renter. Member shall deduct any nonrefundable fees or costs incurred by Member prior to returning any monies due to Renter. Member shall return any monies due to Renter via PayPal or certified check within 5 business days of the date that such determination is made.

She cancelled within 31 days, but we don't know if they were subject to banking restrictions because we don't know his use year of if he used borrowed points. We don't know that he re-rented these points or not (though since he has made subsequent rentals, it doesn't look good for him).

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

I think the main reason I have been more sympathetic to the OP is that it appears (from the details given) that the owner just keeps stringing her along. To me, that is the real crime -- to just keep making her feel like the situation is going to be resolved, and then nothing, nada, nil.

Oh well, there are definitely people on both sides of the camp concerning this one...and that's something we can agree on!

 

[Lovemy3babes]

This owner has told me that I deserve and will receive a refund. He acknowledged this and the contract in his last voicemail to me.

 

[Lovin' Lorne]

Woo Hoo!

 

[Lovin' Lorne]

I didn't think Jim was releasing the information. However, in order for Jim to confirm, the renters must disclose personal information TO Jim. I'm not so comfortable having someone post such an offer on a public thread, encouraging others to share personal info on an owner that is likely completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

I don't think that's the case at all. If I'm understanding correctly, I'd PM Jim and say something like -

"Hey Jim,

I've got a chance to rent points from Billy Bob Jones. Is this the name of that guy that's been causing problems?"

Jim would then reply -

"Oooo, better watch out LL, that's that guy people have had problems with" or "Nope! Have a nice trip!"

Now maybe that's a bit simplistic, but I have to believe that's what Jim's purpose in having the guy's name is all about.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

I agree. What's wrong with Jim saying yay or nay? I'd love for someone else to avoid this issue in the future if at all possible.

 

[robinb]

This owner has told me that I deserve and will receive a refund. He acknowledged this and the contract in his last voicemail to me.

Is that voicemail recent? Make sure it doesn't get deleted! Or, has he promised you a refund and then dropped off the face of the earth again?

 

[kdzgon]

I think the main reason I have been more sympathetic to the OP is that it appears (from the details given) that the owner just keeps stringing her along. To me, that is the real crime -- to just keep making her feel like the situation is going to be resolved, and then nothing, nada, nil.

Oh well, there are definitely people on both sides of the camp concerning this one...and that's something we can agree on!

But, we don't disagree on this point!

I just don't think some of the extreme responses were appropriate - not because the owner is not wrong or the renter is, but rather due to an objection to the tone and severity of some of the posts (and the offer re: personal info). THOSE are the points I tried to make - not so successfully, apparently.

 

[kdzgon]

I agree. What's wrong with Jim saying yay or nay? I'd love for someone else to avoid this issue in the future if at all possible.

So would I, but then, I'd hate to have a potential renter contact Jim and give him my info and say "is this owner a problem?". Considering the number of successful rentals vs problem rentals the odds are many owners' names offered will be completely innocent of conflict. I don't think my arrangement with a renter is something that should be shared with a total stranger with absolutely no connection to our contract.

I will say it appears Jim has gone overboard helping people on this board, but does that give him - or any other person - a pass to essentially collect other people's info? This owner's actions were not criminal but rather offended some posters' sense of what he should have (or should not have) done. I would believe Jim is not collecting names for some nefarious purpose, but will that be the same case for the next person to post a similar offer? This was not a post that "Jim should not collect names"; it was a post that I'm not so sure DISboards should condone any individual posting such a request or offer on a public message board such as this.

It is obvious a number of posters do not agree with me. We can agree to disagree - in the meanwhile, I have tried to clarify what I have been trying to say to the best of my ability. I don't believe there is anything more I can say to explain it any better.

I am glad you have been promised a refund, and I hope all works out for you in the end.

 

[sajetto]

kdzgon, I also agree with you and your reasons for stating your opinion.

OP, I truly hope that this all works out for you and I am very sorry for the difficulties you are having with your "owner"

 

[TisBit]

So would I, but then, I'd hate to have a potential renter contact Jim and give him my info and say "is this owner a problem?". Considering the number of successful rentals vs problem rentals the odds are many owners' names offered will be completely innocent of conflict. I don't think my arrangement with a renter is something that should be shared with a total stranger with absolutely no connection to our contract.

I will say it appears Jim has gone overboard helping people on this board, but does that give him - or any other person - a pass to essentially collect other people's info? This owner's actions were not criminal but rather offended some posters' sense of what he should have (or should not have) done. I would believe Jim is not collecting names for some nefarious purpose, but will that be the same case for the next person to post a similar offer? This was not a post that "Jim should not collect names"; it was a post that I'm not so sure DISboards should condone any individual posting such a request or offer on a public message board such as this.

It is obvious a number of posters do not agree with me. We can agree to disagree - in the meanwhile, I have tried to clarify what I have been trying to say to the best of my ability. I don't believe there is anything more I can say to explain it any better.

I am glad you have been promised a refund, and I hope all works out for you in the end.

For what its worth, I think the big deal here is that those that rent points have no control....if there is someone out there renting points that are causing problems, it is a nice security blanket for someone to be able to say, "am I going to have a problem" with this person. For the person renting points, there is very little that can go wrong, they have control of the ressie and the money in hand prior to travel.

I think that if you look at it from both sides, it is completely different outlook. Also, when you rent points, you are giving your information to a person, that can use that information however they want (within the law). I doubt a renter would be that upset if the person they rented to gave out there name and email address to someone else as a referral for a points rental. Rentees deserve to be able to protect themselves and check you out too.

Personally I am impressed that Jim is willing to field that many PM's and emails... . And I am sure that it gives some people a little piece of mind. I don't think it violates any of the rules of the DIS boards to have conversations "out of the public forum" about these situations.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Is that voicemail recent? Make sure it doesn't get deleted! Or, has he promised you a refund and then dropped off the face of the earth again?

Oh, I was just referring to the voicemail I received from him on 1/8/08. No news of course since then. I do have it saved!

 

[JimMIA]

I don't think that's the case at all. If I'm understanding correctly, I'd PM Jim and say something like -

"Hey Jim,

I've got a chance to rent points from Billy Bob Jones. Is this the name of that guy that's been causing problems?"

Jim would then reply -

"Oooo, better watch out LL, that's that guy people have had problems with" or "Nope! Have a nice trip!"

Now maybe that's a bit simplistic, but I have to believe that's what Jim's purpose in having the guy's name is all about.

That's exactly the process. The only thing you missed is that I delete all the info.

I currently have 6 messages in my Inbox: one is about the shootings at NIU, two are about this specific rental situation, two contain info about DDP, and one is a joke. I usually keep my PM's cleaned up anyway, and I'm especially careful not to save personal information I receive on rental inquiries. I have no use for the info after I've answered the question, and I have no desire to violate anyone's privacy.

 

[JimMIA]

I'd hate to have a potential renter contact Jim and give him my info and say "is this owner a problem?". Considering the number of successful rentals vs problem rentals the odds are many owners' names offered will be completely innocent of conflict. I don't think my arrangement with a renter is something that should be shared with a total stranger with absolutely no connection to our contract.

I understand your position, and if you are renting, you could certainly tell the person you are renting to that your real name is not to be shared. There are other ways for people to achieve a comfort level with an owner besides checking with me.

I will say it appears Jim has gone overboard helping people on this board, but does that give him - or any other person - a pass to essentially collect other people's info?

As mentioned above, I don't collect anything.

This owner's actions were not criminal but rather offended some posters' sense of what he should have (or should not have) done.

This is a very valid point, and something some have lost sight of. This owner has not stolen any money or committed any crime. This is a civil contract dispute, not a theft.

 

[JimMIA]

...I'm not so sure DISboards should condone any individual posting such a request or offer on a public message board such as this.

This is one of those situations where the mods are "damned if they do, damned if they don't." For a number of years, there have been LOUD calls for the DIS to establish some type of feedback system for both owners who rent and people who rent from them. The DIS revisits that issue from time to time, and they always get the same answer -- no. There are lots of reasons why the answer is no, and I completely agree with DIS management that a feedback system (even them doing what I do) would be fraught with problems.

We started this about a year and a half ago, during the fall of 2006 when we had a significant fraud against DIS members using the Rent/Trade board. If you want to read an interesting thread in DIS history, this is the situation I'm talking about: Sad Story

At that time, there was an outcry to post the real names of both women involved in the transactions and many DIS members were not happy that the DIS rightly refused. During part of that period, I spent a good bit of time defending the DIS mods, who in fact, had done far more privately than most people knew.

Through a series of conversations with the mods, we came up with this idea of PM inquiries and responses. This system respects the DIS posting guidelines, and also respects the privacy of individual members. One of the main advantages of me providing the responses I provide is that it creates no liability for the DIS. I'm responsible for my own actions, not the DIS.

This system paid immediate dividends during the "Sad Story" saga. Three people who were about to rent from the crook PM'd me and were told she was the person they feared. One of those was unfortunately after the fact, and I believe she lost her money.

So that's how we got to this point. The volume of inquiries ebbs and flows. Some weeks I only get 2-3 inquiries, other weeks I get a dozen.

The other type of inquiry I get is for help with a problematic transaction -- and I get those from both owners and renters.

I am keenly aware that there are always at least two sides to every story. I have received "complaints" about 8-10 owners over the last year and a half. Most of those complaints were misunderstandings, unrealistic expectations, owners and/or renters who didn't know what they were doing, etc. This owner is the only one I have added to my "Naughty List."

And he's in a different category. The original two women are on my "crooks" list. As noted above, this guy hasn't committed any crime, he's just been a nightmare for everyone who has dealt with him.

 

[Dean]

As mentioned above, I don't collect anything.This is a very valid point, and something some have lost sight of. This owner has not stolen any money or committed any crime. This is a civil contract dispute, not a theft.

Furthermore, it's simply an issue of a contingency disagreement. The other party secured the agreed upon rental, the OP paid for it then cancelled that rental. The only issues appear to be whether the renter made reasonable efforts, did they re-rent the reservation or points and were the points banked/borrowed. We really don't know any of those issues and that is essentially the crux of this matter. That's why I said the OP may not have a case. There were hints early in the thread that the renter offered some solutions but that the OP and renter apparently couldn't get together on those.

 

[JimMIA]

Furthermore, it's simply an issue of a contingency disagreement. The other party secured the agreed upon rental, the OP paid for it then cancelled that rental. The only issues appear to be whether the renter made reasonable efforts, did they re-rent the reservation or points and were the points banked/borrowed. We really don't know any of those issues and that is essentially the crux of this matter. That's why I said the OP may not have a case. There were hints early in the thread that the renter offered some solutions but that the OP and renter apparently couldn't get together on those.

There is no way of telling which way a court would rule in a case like this, because we have only part of one side of the story. Regardless of the legalities, this owner has promised to refund OP's money...and he has not done so.

My problems with this owner from the start have not been legal questions. They are:

1. He consistently has problems with everyone who becomes his customer. He's wonderful until they are paid in full, and then he suddenly develops all sorts of problems which prevent him from responding to his renters.
2. Public records show leins against all three of his accounts for the last two years for unpaid dues. That indicates to me that his problems are not transient issues.
3. He has repeatedly made promises, and then broken those promises. Not just to OP, and not just about refunding OP's money. He's got a whole string of unkept promises.

 

[JimMIA]

After getting a heads-up by PM, I just re-checked the public records and he apparently only has one account left. He paid off his mortgage on one contract, and still owns that one.

But there is a lis pendens filed against the other two DVC accounts which says the finance company has filed foreclosure actions against those accounts. I didn't find the foreclosure action itself, but the lis pendens was a very recent recording so the foreclosure action may just not have been recorded yet.