How much is the lack of AP sales affecting DVC?

[Epcot Forever Forever]

DVC was never eligible for the silver pass. We could get the gold, and Sorcerer before the pause…

Only other option was the full price AL available to every guest.

You’re right I meant gold and then platinum not silver and then gold. It’s been a minute! The way I described the pass was right though.

 

[tidefan]

To wax nostalgic, the best was when they offered DVC members Platinum Annual Passes for $399. I'm trying to remember what year that was...

 

[tjkraz]

To wax nostalgic, the best was when they offered DVC members Platinum Annual Passes for $399. I'm trying to remember what year that was...

2012, when Disney was still crawling out of the recession. And about a year after Jim Lewis was fired. (Not sure if latter was a factor but the discount seemed to go a long way toward building good will among members.)

The discount was only offered for 3 months. Vouchers could be purchased in advance, but had to be activated by end of 2013. Standard price back then was $699 each.

 

[tidefan]

2012, when Disney was still crawling out of the recession. And about a year after Jim Lewis was fired. (Not sure if latter was a factor but the discount seemed to go a long way toward building good will among members.)

The discount was only offered for 3 months. Vouchers could be purchased in advance, but had to be activated by end of 2013. Standard price back then was $699 each.

Yes! I remember it being a great deal and we did have that short period of time to jump on it. I think we made 5 or 6 trips down that year... And actually, maybe it was called the Premium Annual Pass back then. If I recall it included the water parks and one of the golf courses. A couple of those trips we mainly just hit the water parks and I played some golf, then we go in the parks late afternoon/night to eat, etc...

I had almost forgotten about Jim Lewis. All those looking for those subsidized Aulani contracts can thank him...

 

[Epcot Forever Forever]

I had almost forgotten about Jim Lewis. All those looking for those subsidized Aulani contracts can thank him...

As can all those who paid $8+ dues for Riviera in year one only to see them basically not increase since. Jim’s replacements learned don’t get caught short no matter what!

 

[DannysMom]

To wax nostalgic, the best was when they offered DVC members Platinum Annual Passes for $399. I'm trying to remember what year that was...

Those were the days! What a great deal that was. Now I’m over here, just sell the dang APs again already!

 

[BroganMc]

I agree for the most part. I just think Disney the company is so big that each divisions are in competition with one another for profits, and not necessarily working together for the greater good of the Disney company as a whole. DVD's sole purpose is to build DVC resorts, sell them ASAP, make profits, and build more DVC resorts. Disney Hotels, please correct me if I'm wrong, fall under DPEP, who have their own agendas and profit goals separate from DVD. I wholeheartedly agree that selling cash hotel rooms for 50 years is probably much more profitable than selling 50 year DVC contracts. But that doesn't mean Disney won't build more DVC resorts. I guess my point is, the Big Disney company may not care as much, which division is making how much money how fast. As long as they are making money? Executives may value tourists over locals and DVCers because they spend more money in the parks. But I don't think Disney wants to get rid of any group of fans. They want us all, and they want to keep the parks crowded.

You guys are missing for the equation here. Disney also retains ownership in those DVC resorts so that they can sell them at cash rates. So not only are they financing the construction and operating expenses of these resorts by DVC owners, they also get to rent out the rooms for a huge profit. All of the DVC resorts are priced as deluxe resorts at over $600 per night.

Now you have to factor in the expense of building a hotel and operating it when you consider the profit of a $600 per night hotel room. But with the DVC resort, Disney doesn't have those expenses. They pass them on to the members. It's all profit to them. That's why they're so keen on building more DVCs and not more hotels. Just look to see what they've done over the last 15 years.

 

[kilik64]

As can all those who paid $8+ dues for Riviera in year one only to see them basically not increase since. Jim’s replacements learned don’t get caught short no matter what!

They even went down a penny one year lol

 

[BroganMc]

I think Brian hit it on the head by pointing out it's the average of all APs in the park. I would think that on any given (non-spring break, non-holiday) day, local APs vastly outnumber out of state APs so those locals just popping in for a drink or a quick bite or just to walk around, bring down the whole average greatly.

I think we all fall for the myth that Disney has all this granular data on each and every one of us but I don't think so. They are just making assumptions off big data sets as Brian described. If they could get it to a more detailed level, no doubt they would see that AP's who fly in a couple times a year spend very similar to the once a year, or less, non-AP's.

So you're telling me Disney metrics cannot account for the number of DVC members with annual passes versus locals with annual passes in their spending analysis? Really? These are the people that track everything you do in the park. They know everything about you including your date of birth. I'm just not buying it.

I think the only reason why DVC members have not been allowed to buy annual passes because Disney's been able to get away with it. Members are stupidly buying the day passes. Why would you do that? Seriously rent out your points. Trade them for an II trip. There are many more places to vacation in this world than Disney. I know for me if I didn't have my annual pass I would not be going to Disney. In fact the year I gave up my annual pass I did not go to Disney. I rented out my points.

The idea that annual passholders are not profitable seems ridiculous to me. If that were true then why would we have annual passholder only merchandise and events? Disney knows there is a market there. And they know the annual pass discount for DVC was the number one selling factor for people outside of the reduced cost of hotel rooms. I'm sure somewhere DVC management is having a war with Disney tickets over this. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of that argument.

If they keep this up, just wait till they open the new Poly Tower and see if that sells. My prediction is it'll plummet and then they'll panic. It's one thing for a resort on the skyliner not to sell, but one on the monorail loop? Heads would roll

 

[Maistre Gracey]

You guys are missing for the equation here. Disney also retains ownership in those DVC resorts so that they can sell them at cash rates. So not only are they financing the construction and operating expenses of these resorts by DVC owners, they also get to rent out the rooms for a huge profit. All of the DVC resorts are priced as deluxe resorts at over $600 per night.

Now you have to factor in the expense of building a hotel and operating it when you consider the profit of a $600 per night hotel room. But with the DVC resort, Disney doesn't have those expenses. They pass them on to the members. It's all profit to them. That's why they're so keen on building more DVCs and not more hotels. Just look to see what they've done over the last 15 years.

DVD pays dues on the points they own.

 

[kilik64]

I think the only reason why DVC members have not been allowed to buy annual passes because Disney's been able to get away with it. Members are stupidly buying the day passes. Why would you do that? Seriously rent out your points. Trade them for an II trip. There are many more places to vacation in this world than Disney. I know for me if I didn't have my annual pass I would not be going to Disney. In fact the year I gave up my annual pass I did not go to Disney. I rented out my points.

Or the percent of the membership that cares about an annual pass is actually pretty small or at least far enough below a majority?

Just a thought.

 

[Sandisw]

So you're telling me Disney metrics cannot account for the number of DVC members with annual passes versus locals with annual passes in their spending analysis? Really? These are the people that track everything you do in the park. They know everything about you including your date of birth. I'm just not buying it.

I think the only reason why DVC members have not been allowed to buy annual passes because Disney's been able to get away with it. Members are stupidly buying the day passes. Why would you do that? Seriously rent out your points. Trade them for an II trip. There are many more places to vacation in this world than Disney. I know for me if I didn't have my annual pass I would not be going to Disney. In fact the year I gave up my annual pass I did not go to Disney. I rented out my points.

The idea that annual passholders are not profitable seems ridiculous to me. If that were true then why would we have annual passholder only merchandise and events? Disney knows there is a market there. And they know the annual pass discount for DVC was the number one selling factor for people outside of the reduced cost of hotel rooms. I'm sure somewhere DVC management is having a war with Disney tickets over this. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of that argument.

If they keep this up, just wait till they open the new Poly Tower and see if that sells. My prediction is it'll plummet and then they'll panic. It's one thing for a resort on the skyliner not to sell, but one on the monorail loop? Heads would roll

Rememger, a pass holder is not compared on a one to one bases with day guests. Each time a pass holder enters, they are compared to a different day guest so that is how AP holders spend less, on average, then a day guest.

Many DVC owners don’t use APs and May not be impacted in the way this small group of owners is here on the DIS.

But, DPEP is concerned about parks and right now, they have no problem filling the parks with guests buying tickets. So, they don’t need to give away admission to the DVC owner.

 

[Sandisw]

DVD pays dues on the points they own.

Actually, they do not pay operational expenses on their point and in exchange for that, they guarantee to cover any shortfall from that the projected budget done in December.

So, if they decided to charge owners $6/pt for operations and actual expenses at the end of the year turn out to be $6.50/pt, they can’t ask owners to pay that additional amount.

They don’t have to agree to the guarantee each year, but they do..so chances are they make our pretty well.

 

[jo-jo]

Rememger, a pass holder is not compared on a one to one bases with day guests. Each time a pass holder enters, they are compared to a different day guest so that is how AP holders spend less, on average, then a day guest.

Many DVC owners don’t use APs and May not be impacted in the way this small group of owners is here on the DIS.

But, DPEP is concerned about parks and right now, they have no problem filling the parks with guests buying tickets. So, they don’t need to give away admission to the DVC owner.

But if many don't buy AP, why not let those DVC people who do, buy one?

 

[Sandisw]

But if many don't buy AP, why not let those DVC people who do, buy one?

Because we are a subset of the larger population and it’s not about us and we are no more or less important to them then any other guest.

I get it’s frustrating but it’s obviously a product, in its current state, that they feel is not in their best interests to sell.

And, even if it’s a small number of owners in comparison to owners as a whole, it would still amount to a lot of APs out there. My family alone is eligible for 9.

But, I also think that they could come up with a better product for DVC owners that would benefit both us and them.

 

[tidefan]

Because we are a subset of the larger population and it’s not about us and we are no more or less important to them then any other guest.

I get it’s frustrating but it’s obviously a product, in its current state, that they feel is not in their best interests to sell.

And, even if it’s a small number of owners in comparison to owners as a whole, it would still amount to a lot of APs out there. My family alone is eligible for 9.

But, I also think that they could come up with a better product for DVC owners that would benefit both us and them.

I think that it may be more on DVD instead of DPEP. You are correct, DPEP is going to do what’s in their best interest. DVD has also done the same thing, do what is in its best interest and from what I gather from here (and I could be wrong), then if there are things that DVD wants, it has to negotiate those things with DPEP.

Maybe it’s just that the Ken Potrock’s and Terri Schultz’s of the world were better at intra-corporate negotiations.

Or, maybe it’s a Disney strategic plan that has some favorability for DPEP over DVD.

I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure DVD would love to have members be able to purchase AP’s…

 

[Sandisw]

I think that it may be more on DVD instead of DPEP. You are correct, DPEP is going to do what’s in their best interest. DVD has also done the same thing, do what is in its best interest and from what I gather from here (and I could be wrong), then if there are things that DVD wants, it has to negotiate those things with DPEP.

Maybe it’s just that the Ken Potrock’s and Terri Schultz’s of the world were better at intra-corporate negotiations.

Or, maybe it’s a Disney strategic plan that has some favorability for DPEP over DVD.

I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure DVD would love to have members be able to purchase AP’s…

It is definitely because DPEP doesn’t want to sell them. If DVD had the power to negotiate a way to get DVC owners access, to help sales, we would have them.

It has nothing to do with prior leaders either,..they didn’t lead DVC during a time after a pandemic and when the company suspended the product.

Each division runs on its own and with its own goals and when it comes to parks, it’s DPEP and higher ups that led that train. I know people don’t want to hear that,,,it’s one company overall, but that is simply how the company operates.

And, while two of us have them, we have others who do not, so we would love to seem them come back..but, alas, we also know how things operate and will adjust as we go.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

Actually, they do not pay operational expenses on their point and in exchange for that, they guarantee to cover any shortfall from that the projected budget done in December.

So, if they decided to charge owners $6/pt for operations and actual expenses at the end of the year turn out to be $6.50/pt, they can’t ask owners to pay that additional amount.

They don’t have to agree to the guarantee each year, but they do..so chances are they make our pretty well.

Wait. So members pay operational expenses for non-declared points as well? If Riviera is only half sold and declared, member's annual dues pays for the operational expenses of the ENTIRE resort? That doesn't sound right?

 

[Sandisw]

Wait. So members pay operational expenses for non-declared points as well? If Riviera is only half sold and declared, member's annual dues pays for the operational expenses of the ENTIRE resort? That doesn't sound right?

No, undeclared is different because those rooms are not part of the condo association until they have been declared. . I was talking about points DVD owns once they have been declared.

So, right now, 66.2% of RIV has been declared, so DVC is responsible for that %. If only 51% is sold, then DVD still owns points…right now, it’s those points.

As I said, it’s operational costa…and once a resort is sold out, it is typically 2% to 4% of the resort, if you consider what they have to keep by law, and maybe via ROFR ans foreclosure.

Here is the POS language as an example….it is updated and part of the yearly budget documents that every owner gets in December:

 

[HIRyeDVC]

No, undeclared is different because those rooms are not part of the condo association until they have been declared. . I was talking about points DVD owns once they have been declared.

So, right now, 66.2% of RIV has been declared, so DVC is responsible for that %. If only 51% is sold, then DVD still owns points…right now, it’s those points.

As I said, it’s operational costa…and once a resort is sold out, it is typically 2% to 4% of the resort, if you consider what they have to keep by law, and maybe via ROFR ans foreclosure.

Here is the POS language as an example….it is updated and part of the yearly budget documents that every owner gets in December:

View attachment 751427

I hate legal speak. So if only 66% of Riviera has been declared but only 51% sold, existing members would still be responsible to cover the additional 15% of the declared inventory? I can buy that since that extra 15% is available for members to book and use. But that same example doesn't seem quite fair for VGF owners since only 50% of BPK has sold but 100% of it has been declared? Given that, it's puzzling that VGF is still the lowest dues in all of DVC? Also, if a resort is sold out and fully declared, where does breakage come in to play?