How long for camera to be on shelves?

[tinatark]

I got some great input for a superzoom camera - have a Staples gift card coming from my other camera's extended warranty - so I'll be buying the new camera from there. My refund is $349 - I will go up to $399 but no higher than that, as I will still purchase another extended warranty ($50).

I am interested in the Canon S2 - they have the S3 in stock ($499), so I suppose it's safe to say they won't carry the S2.

They do currently carry the Sony H2 ($399) - but I've seen software and storage issues with that camera - something about the *type* of memory stick you can use with it not being readily available. Memory stick pro duo, I think. My friend also has a Sony Wsomething - it seems complicated!

I'm also interested in the Kodak Z612 - 6mp, 12x optical zoom, image stabilization. I have had several Kodak digital cameras, I'm very pleased at how easy they are to use and I have batteries (LiIon) and a couple of memory cards to use with it already. This camera is very new - preliminary reviews are great. It looks like it's only available so far at Radio Shack and Circuit City and internet-only stores.

Anyone have any idea of when these will be available at the mass merchants (like Staples?!) Do the camera companies sometimes limit their retail stores to certain vendors to increase their (vendor) sales?

 

[Kelly Grannell]

This is coming from a self professed Kodak (camera) hater:

if I have to choose between Sony H2 vs Kodak Z612, I will still pick the Kodak rather than the Sony. Sony doesn't have true image stabilizer. All it does is bumping the ISO without you knowing so the shutter speed is faster to reduce camera shake. Sony is evil by trying to pass that auto-ISO-bumping as "anti shake".

Still your best bet is to get the S3, but if it's out of your budget, what else can I say.
some facts about S3 you need to know, however:

1. the ISO 800 is cleaner than Sony's or Kodak's ISO 400
2. the image stabilizer is better than Kodak's (Sony doesn't even have it)
3. also uses SD card (so you can use you current memory cards)

 

[Anewman]

Sony doesn't have true image stabilizer. All it does is bumping the ISO without you knowing so the shutter speed is faster to reduce camera shake.

I do agree that Sony's Steady shot is not as effective as Canons IS, but I was wondering where you got this info?

 

[Kelly Grannell]

The H2 and H5 are using Sony Super Steady Shot.

Steady Shot in itself is an optical image stabilizer developed by Sony (but not a TRUE optical stabilizer) This is done by capturing the entire image, calculate the level of shake, and extrapolate the image to give the creation of less-shake. It's really effective for their camcorder due to the lower resolution of the image to begin with. (Proof that Steady Shot is not true optical stabilizer but instead an average system, if you look at a movie taken using Steady Shot vs non-Steady Shot, the one WITH Steady Shot will be less shaky but at the same time less sharp)

Super Steady Shot is just like Steady Shot but it adds auto-ISO-push into the equation.


Here's a snippet from Sony's own launch white paper (also duplicated on several websites such as dpreview and many other digital camera review sites)

"Even without the steadiest of hands (or subjects), the cameras’ anti-blur technologies ensure challenging shots can be executed with ease. These new models incorporate Sony’s Super SteadyShot® optical image stabilization to help reduce image blur caused by hand movement. Because these cameras feature high-light sensitivity settings up to IS0 1000, fast-moving cars and people along the boulevard can also be captured with considerably less blur and graininess. Sony’s Clear RAW™ noise reduction technology minimizes picture noise, making it easier to shoot at faster shutter speeds. These anti-blur technologies are an advantage when shooting in low-light conditions, such as outdoor shots in the evening or inside dark museums."

The same info can be confirmed by contacting their upper-level technical support (not the regular ones you call in, but call in and ask for their level 2 support)

 

[Anewman]

The H2 and H5 are using Sony Super Steady Shot.

Steady Shot in itself is an optical image stabilizer developed by Sony (but not a TRUE optical stabilizer) This is done by capturing the entire image, calculate the level of shake, and extrapolate the image to give the creation of less-shake. It's really effective for their camcorder due to the lower resolution of the image to begin with. (Proof that Steady Shot is not true optical stabilizer but instead an average system, if you look at a movie taken using Steady Shot vs non-Steady Shot, the one WITH Steady Shot will be less shaky but at the same time less sharp)

Super Steady Shot is just like Steady Shot but it adds auto-ISO-push into the equation.


Here's a snippet from Sony's own launch white paper (also duplicated on several websites such as dpreview and many other digital camera review sites)

"Even without the steadiest of hands (or subjects), the cameras’ anti-blur technologies ensure challenging shots can be executed with ease. These new models incorporate Sony’s Super SteadyShot® optical image stabilization to help reduce image blur caused by hand movement. Because these cameras feature high-light sensitivity settings up to IS0 1000, fast-moving cars and people along the boulevard can also be captured with considerably less blur and graininess. Sony’s Clear RAW™ noise reduction technology minimizes picture noise, making it easier to shoot at faster shutter speeds. These anti-blur technologies are an advantage when shooting in low-light conditions, such as outdoor shots in the evening or inside dark museums."

The same info can be confirmed by contacting their upper-level technical support (not the regular ones you call in, but call in and ask for their level 2 support)

I understand that high ISO helps avoid blur, but their white paper makes no mention of boosting ISO in the background unkown to photographer. I notice that the comments about super steady shot and ISO sensitivity are two seperate sentences.
Are you saying that Level 2 support admitted that this is done?

I can understand Boosting ISO in Auto modes to help avoid blur, even canon does this.

But if one shoots in manual mode @1/20 with Steady shot off, you are saying that by turning steady shot ON the camera will boost ISO and shoot @1/40th and it will be hidden in EXIF data?

In Phils dpREVIEW of the H1(H2 not reviewed yet), he makes no mention of this and he actually refers to it as OPTICAL image stabilization(not digital as in video steady shot). I downloaded 2 of his EXAMPLE photos 1 with Steady shot and one without, EXIF data in both show ISO as 64 and he lists both with shutter speed of 1/20th. I doubt that if the ISO was being boosted it would not show in EXIF data.

Phil reviews H1 scroll down for Image stabilization section

You maybe right but every REVIEW I found makes no mention of this and they all refer to it as OPTICAL IS in the LENS.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

I understand that high ISO helps avoid blur, but their white paper makes no mention of boosting ISO in the background unkown to photographer. I notice that the comments about super steady shot and ISO sensitivity are two seperate sentences.
Are you saying that Level 2 support admitted that this is done?

Yup. Called them about a month ago (or was it two weeks ago), on behalf of my friend's store. Supposedly everything is being taken care of by OIS and when OIS can't no longer help, ISO is boosted.

Now, I don't have the camera with me and I've never played with most of Sony cameras. I made the call just because the clients see lots of low-light pictures from their H1 are riddled with high ISO noise and they use the full-auto mode only. (If you meet them, you'll believe their story that they never go beyond full auto)

PS: This ISO-boosting "technique" (and claimed to be as anti-shake) is also used by Samsung, Fuji and Casio.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

addition:

Casio calls theirs: Anti Shake DSP
Fuji calls theirs: Real Photo Technology
Samsung calls theirs: Advance Shake Reduction Technology

 

[Anewman]

Yup. Called them about a month ago (or was it two weeks ago), on behalf of my friend's store. Supposedly everything is being taken care of by OIS and when OIS can't no longer help, ISO is boosted.

So isnt that what happens with every other IS enabled camera, even Canon?
So them saying "when OIS can't no longer help", dosnt that mean they confirmed that the camera DOES have OPTICAL IMAGE STABILIZATION?

Now, I don't have the camera with me and I've never played with most of Sony cameras. I made the call just because the clients see lots of low-light pictures from their H1 are riddled with high ISO noise and they use the full-auto mode only. (If you meet them, you'll believe their story that they never go beyond full auto)

Sounds like every other P&S camera to me. ISO is boosted because of lack of light in full auto mode.


Clic for full size images(hope this works).
Sony H1 Sample photo with Steady Shot OFF




Steady shot ON SAME ISO AND SHUTTER SPEED

 

[Kelly Grannell]

So isnt that what happens with every other IS enabled camera, even Canon?

Not with Canon, Nikon or Kodak. They won't boost the ISO 'secretly'

So them saying "when OIS can't no longer help", dosnt that meand they confirmed that the camera DOES have OPTICAL IMAGE STABILIZATION?

Their definition of OIS is different then Canon's, Nikon's and Kodak's. Again, this is based on this level 2 tech support individual, according to him, (and I paraphrase) "Sony's Steady Shot system uses gyro sensors within the lens to detect the angles and speed of camera shake and uses the information to create a steady image on the camera sensor, when the approriate shutter speed can not be achieved, the camera will then automatically chooses a higher ISO setting in order to achieve a faster shutter speed".

I'm just assuming that as a 2nd level tech support he should know what he's talking about... but then again one can't really tell.

The only real in-depth experience I have with Sony's Super Steady Shot is via their miniDV which as I previously mentioned, when turned 'OFF' yields a sharper (albeit shakier) picture than when turned 'ON' -- the comparison was made on my Sony 42" 16:9 TV viewed at a distance of (approx) 80"

Sounds like every other P&S camera to me. ISO is boosted because of lack of light in full auto mode.

Yes, but they don't claim it to be part of their "anti shake" feature, unless if the cameras are made by Samsung, Casio or Fuji.

PS: I don't dismiss the pictures you posted, but that's not what I see from this couple's camera. Their EXIFs show ISO fluctuations between shots they took with Super Steady Shot 'ON' vs 'OFF'