How does vandalism and looting accomplish anything???

[pioneer89]

Well, I was certainly wrong in my first post bout how badly the Ferguson police handles the riots. Seems the riots and looting were going to happen no matter what response is given.

The good people of Ferguson and the surrounding communities deserve to be protected. It's just a shame it's now going to take soldiers to do it.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I'm sure I'll get blasted by some for this but here goes anyways.

If the above is true then it's not impossible that his arms were hit when he was running away. The same part of your arm would be exposed if it were stretch out (like you were lunging at someone) in front of you as it would be in the opposite direction to a person behind you (like the back swingof your arm when running).

I guess it really tells us nothing other than he was in some way going down for the last shots.

I would think if one were running away, the entrance holes would almost have to be in the "back" of the arms. Of course, we haven't been told where those entrance holes are.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I would think if one were running away, the entrance holes would almost have to be in the "back" of the arms. Of course, we haven't been told where those entrance holes are.

I don't think they'd have to be. If you are running forward (like some say he was when he was first shot) toward someone and away from someone (as a witness says), your arms are swinging so that same part is being exposed to front and back.
The diagram has the wounds on the inside parts of his arms. It would be exposed in both situations.

 

[Geoff_M]

It is not.
The article is talking about a different witness at that point. She says he was running and his body jerked like he had been shot and he turned around, hands up and said " I don't have a gun. Stop shooting".

It was Dorian Johnson in the detailed description that he gave to MSNBC shortly after the shooting:

They heard him say something to the effect of, “what’d you say?” At the same time, Johnson says the officer attempted to thrust his door open but the door slammed into Brown and bounced closed. Johnson says the officer, with his left hand, grabbed Brown by the neck.

“They’re not wrestling so much as his arm went from his throat to now clenched on his shirt,” Johnson explained of the scene between Brown and the officer. “It’s like tug of war. He’s trying to pull him in. He’s pulling away, that’s when I heard, ‘I’m gonna shoot you.’”

At that moment, Johnson says he fixed his gaze on the officer to see if he was pulling a stun gun or a real gun. That’s when he saw the muzzle of the officer’s gun.

“I seen the barrel of the gun pointed at my friend,” he said. “He had it pointed at him and said ‘I’ll shoot,’ one more time.”

A second later Johnson said he heard the first shot go off.

“I seen the fire come out of the barrell,” he said. “I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close.”

Johnson says he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer. He looked over at Brown and saw blood pooling through his shirt on the right side of the body.

“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together. There were three cars lined up along the side of the street. Johnson says he ducked behind the first car, whose two passengers were screaming. Crouching down a bit, he watched Brown run past.

“Keep running, bro!,” he said Brown yelled. Then Brown yelled it a second time. Those would be the last words Johnson’s friend, “Big Mike,” would ever say to him.

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”

By that point, Johnson says the officer and Brown were face-to-face. The officer then fired several more shots. Johnson described watching Brown go from standing with his hands up to crumbling to the ground and curling into a fetal position.

 

[sunshinehighway]

It was Dorian Johnson in the detailed description that he gave to MSNBC shortly after the shooting:

Yes it is. But that is not the NYT link. That link was talking about a different witness.

 

[Geoff_M]

Yes it is. But that is not the NYT link. That link was talking about a different witness.

From the NYT link:

Mr. Johnson said that he hid behind a parked car and that Mr. Brown was struck by a bullet in his back as he ran away, an account that Dr. Baden’s autopsy appears to contradict.

While the NYT article also mentions Tiffany Mitchell saying it appears Brown was shot in the back ("Michael’s body jerks as if he was hit"), the only one that makes that actual assertion that he was struck in the article was Johnson himself... unless we're talking about different links.

 

[brunette8706]

For all of you saying it doesn't fit the narrative, you are just picking out what works for you.
It doesn't fit the idea he was running away but it does fit with him having his arms raised. Look where those bullets to the arm are. The easiest way for bullets to hit there would be with his arms raised..not out running or lunging at someone.

*
Your opinion as with "others" here is just speculation. It could fit that his arms were raised. It could also fit that the police wanted to stun or stop him by trying to shoot his arm or waist. This is all speculation. The officer did say that the perpatrator was coming toward him as in full force head down.

 

[pioneer89]

I'm sure I'll get blasted by some for this but here goes anyways.

If the above is true then it's not impossible that his arms were hit when he was running away. The same part of your arm would be exposed if it were stretch out (like you were lunging at someone) in front of you as it would be in the opposite direction to a person behind you (like the back swingof your arm when running).

I guess it really tells us nothing other than he was in some way going down for the last shots.

To me (arm-chairing this) a lot of this depends on what happened to spark the first shot(s) inside the patrol car.

If the shot was triggered by Brown, or if it went off because of the struggle, the Officer's reaction should be to shoot Brown if unable to immediately subdue him. I don't think you get to turn around and somehow gain instant immunity if you just fired a weapon at someone.

I can picture the scenario where Brown got a hand on the officers weapon, and it fires, Brown runs, then Brown turns to surrender, one hand up, but the other is not, and it looks to the officer like he's going for a gun. Brown is shot justifiably.

I can also picture the scenario where the officer grabs Brown, but Brown pushes him away and flees. The Officer is pissed off, and goes for his weapon, somehow firing it, and now he's mad AND embarrassed. Brown is shot in a fit of rage.

I have no doubt the waters are going to get very muddy on this one.

 

[brunette8706]

An expert on CNN said the head wounds were consistent with him falling forward. The first head wound entered near his eye, exited his chin, and ended up near his collarbone, the 2nd head wound on the top of his head is also consistent with him falling forward.

According to the expert on CNN neither head wound says anything about whether he was charging or surrendering, just that he was falling forward from the previous wounds in his arms.

*
How would the CNN "expert" know he was falling forward, or charging the police officer full force? It's speculation. The police officer said he was charging him. Of course it's his word against others.

 

[Geoff_M]

*
Your opinion as with "others" here is just speculation. It could fit that his arms were raised. It could also fit that the police wanted to stun or stop him by trying to shoot his arm or waist. This is all speculation. The officer did say that the perpatrator was coming toward him as in full force head down.

Additionally, there are examples of tragic dashboard camera video that show police officers losing their lives after unknowingly pulling over a wanted person who at first feigns cooperation and then bum-rushes the officer. Not a clue if that's what happened here, however, but it's one scenario that could explain the contradictory reports.

 

[Geoff_M]

I can picture the scenario where Brown got a hand on the officers weapon, and it fires, Brown runs, then Brown turns to surrender, one hand up, but the other is not, and it looks to the officer like he's going for a gun. Brown is shot justifiably.

I can also picture the scenario where the officer grabs Brown, but Brown pushes him away and flees. The Officer is pissed off, and goes for his weapon, somehow firing it, and now he's mad AND embarrassed. Brown is shot in a fit of rage.

I have no doubt the waters are going to get very muddy on this one.

I agree 100%. But if what we end up with, as you rightly fear, is a total mixed bag, what should "the authorities" then do? If they feel they have a weak case, do they then go ahead and push forward with the trial that's being demanded but the masses? If a jury (stop me if you've heard this one lately!) cannot find enough to then convict... then what? Is the next stop a Federal civil rights violation prosecution?

 

[brunette8706]

Additionally, there are examples of tragic dashboard camera video that show police officers losing their lives after unknowingly pulling over a wanted person who at first feigns cooperation and then bum-rushes the officer. Not clue if that's what happened here, however, but it's one scenario that could explain the contradictory reports.

Did the police car have the dashboard cam? That should be manatory on all police vehicles.

 

[Geoff_M]

Did the police car have the dashboard cam? That should be manatory on all police vehicles.

I don't know. I recall reading some mention very early of someone saying "First there was supposedly dashboard video, and then there wasn't!!!" as part of the assertion that the incident was being covered up by the local cops. Other than that, I haven't heard an official mention one way or the other.

 

[asta]

When I went through military police training almost 30 years ago, the protocol for fleeing suspects was freeze (stay facing away), hands up, slowly lower yourself to the ground, face down on the ground with arms spread out to the side. No idea whether this is still the protocol, or whether it ever was for civilian police, so my experience really means nothing.

We were also taught that you never draw your weapon unless you believe that deadly force is necessary. And there was no "shoot to wound". If you believed that you needed to exert deadly force, you shoot to kill.

Again, I have no idea whether or not this is the protocol for civilian police.

This is the case with our local police. There is never a warning shot or a shot to wound. If the officer has to shoot, he is shooting to kill.

 

[brunette8706]

I don't know. I recall reading some mention very early of someone saying "First there was supposedly dashboard video, and then there wasn't!!!" as part of the assertion that the incident was being covered up by the local cops. Other than that, I haven't heard an official mention one way or the other.

That's just ludicrous. Wow! This will come out I'm sure. They are either equipped with the cams or they are not.

Does anyone know if there has been a toxicology report?

 

[sunshinehighway]

*
Your opinion as with "others" here is just speculation. It could fit that his arms were raised. It could also fit that the police wanted to stun or stop him by trying to shoot his arm or waist. This is all speculation. The officer did say that the perpatrator was coming toward him as in full force head down.

So funny. I especially like the " on others. You do realize that all opinions here on the bullet wounds and what they could show is all speculation , right?

 

[Flamingeaux]

Based on the store video Mr Brown was looking for a confrontation. He was confronted by the officer while walking in the street blocking traffic. Mr Brown was looking for trouble and unfortunately he found it. Did he deserve to die, I would guess no. But does he deserve some of the blame, yes.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

That's just ludicrous. Wow! This will come out I'm sure. They are either equipped with the cams or they are not.

Does anyone know if there has been a toxicology report?

Tox report is not ready.

 

[olwyngdh]

It seems to be coming down to what I have thought it was since the beginning--an overreaction on both sides that ended in the death of one and the destruction of the other.

 

[Geoff_M]

That's just ludicrous. Wow! This will come out I'm sure. They are either equipped with the cams or they are not.

I don't know that it's that simple. First question: Was there a camera installed on that vehicle? Also, do all vehicles in the department have them, and if not, was Wilson's that day one of them? Secondly, was it functional that day? Then, if one was present, and it was operational, then the question would be "Was it turned on during the incident?" In some cases, the officer has to start and stop it. I've heard that it's also common to have the cameras record whenever the vehicle's emergency lights are on. I wonder if Wilson ever flipped the lights on? So, if I heard the accusation correctly, it might be a matter that people thought there should be video, and there later upon checking it was determined, for any number of reasons, there was none. Or maybe the protestor was right and the FPD just deleted it after they said they had it because they realized it showed Brown being gunned down in cold-blood.