How does vandalism and looting accomplish anything???

[Geoff_M]

They knew from the start that Brown was not shot in the back. Had that information been released right away, it might have helped to tamp down some of the violence.

I think you're wishful thinking. It would likely have been dismissed as false information that was part of the declared police cover-up. Eye witnesses said he was shot in the back, therefore it was true. No different then when the store video was declared as "photoshopped" fakery.

And lastly, if you asked those that say that Brown was unlawfully gunned down if if makes a bit of difference to them if he was shot in the front or the back, I have no doubt the unanimous answer among people that "just know" what happened would be a flat "No."

 

[Disneychick75]

I think there's just too many possible scenarios here and the wounds add a little to the confusion (especially that top of the head one).

We also don't know how many shots were fired. Brown ran away and tried to flee at some point. He turned back around before he died. What caused him to do that? Did he turn around to surrender because the officer fired at him? Did he decided he couldn't get away so he decided to charge him?

I think both Johnson and another witness have said all along that he verbalized not to shoot.

According to an eyewitness whose conversation can be overheard in a video, Brown jumped into the police car, then he walked away from the vehicle. When Wilson yelled for Brown to freeze, he turned around and started running towards Wilson. The person the witness was talking to sounded amazed that Brown would have run back towards Wilson.

I think you're wishful thinking. It would likely have been dismissed as false information that was part of the declared police cover-up. Eye witnesses said he was shot in the back, therefore it was true. No different then when the store video was declared as "photoshopped" fakery.

You're probably right.

 

[agame2323]

When did the witnesses come forward and decide he verbalized not to shoot
From the diagram--and I acknowledge this is speculation---

Having actually run a few miles in my life--the only part or the arm potentially exposed from behind is the forearm. That part of the arm does come back in such a way that the short in the forearm could possibily behind.
Not sure how flexible anyone else is, but elbow up, that part of the arm doesn't present in such a way for a front entry bullet to have been possible from behind.

And for me injuries, my instinct is to stop (or struggle to escape the situation causing injury of warranted). Never to turn around and issue a command. But I've never been shot. Certainly never tried to run away from police. But I tend to freeze, evaluate what just got injured, and then figure things out. (How it was when I broke my ankle.)

In other words, I'm having a difficult time reconciling: officers are trained to shoot to kill with a scenario that allowed time for Mike Brown to turn around and continue getting shot. Even with the explanation that there were a few shots, a pause, then a few more.

Mr Brown must have been really tough after the shots the arm. I would have crumbled to the floor. So to me--him being shot and standing completely still asking to not be shot does not sound plausible to me.

All that said--in the confusion and mayhem, it seems that all parties agree that he was in motion. What conflicts is the direction he was moving.

Another thing--is it possible that maybe his arms went up and some bystanders yelled the request to not shoot?

You make some good points. That being said... I know from experience (not first hand) that being shot, anywhere on your body, is painful. Bullets actually burn. Its similar to holding a match to your skin. Its not like the movies when the killer keeps coming forward, taking multiple bullets.

Michael Brown wasn't a tough kid. He wasn't super human. I can bet he reacted just like any other human-being after having a bullet strike him. I get the speculation but at some point human behavior and the human anatomy come into play. Let's not make this kid out to suddenly be UNSTOPPABLE.

Officers are equipped with several different weapons that are design to "stop" an offender from doing harm. Stun Guns. Pepper Spray. Night Sticks. Officer Wilson MADE the decision to use deadly force and now the task of justifying the use of deadly force must happen. If Brown was THAT close to where he could physically harm the officer, it make sense to fire that many shots. Unless Brown was high on something or had a death wish, how can shooting someone 6 times (once to the head) be justified?

To my knowledge most Law Enforcement officers carry a Glock 19 or 22. Those weapons are DESIGNED to drop someone with just one shot. No matter the size of the individual. Point is... its a powerful weapon.

With that being said... I'm not SURE if the weapon used was one of the above but best believe, the police don't walk around with Pea-Shooters.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I think there's just too many possible scenarios here and the wounds add a little to the confusion (especially that top of the head one).

In my mind, and again, NOTHING but conjecture, I see that shot, and the one through the eye, as coming while Brown was falling down. I kind of picture it as the guy has been shot four times, he's starting to slow down and kind of stagger, but still moving forward towards Wilson. Wilson continues to fire, and the last two shots hit Brown as he's actually in the "final stage", for lack of a better term, of falling down, possibly on his knees with his hands in front of him.

Again, ALL conjecture. However, one thing is almost certain about the last shot. It didn't come while Brown was on his knees with his hands up, unless Wilson was standing over him and firing down, which most likely would have left gunshot residue on Brown's head.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The other night, business owners were complaining that the police did nothing to stop the looting.

They can't make up their minds about what they want, but I'm in the "let the town burn" camp.

I think they want the out of towners to just leave them alone.

But because they keep showing up and doing as they please, the only way to do that is to set restrictions on the whole town. So residents doing nothing illegal are stuck because criminals (looters/vandalizers) cannot be bothered to listen.

Because stealing mozzerella and tomato sauce from Papa Johns is totally how to get even.

 

[OurBigTrip]

You make some good points. That being said... I know from experience (not first hand) the being shot, anywhere on your body, is planful. Bullets actually burn. Its similar to holding a match to your skin. Its not like the movies when the killer keeps coming forward, taking multiple bullets.

Given the location of the first four shots, it's absolutely possible that Brown kept coming.

Officers are equipped with several different weapons that are design to "stop" an offender from doing harm. Stun Guns. Pepper Spray. Night Sticks. Officer Wilson MADE the decision to use deadly force and no the task of justifying the use of deadly force must happen. If Brown was THAT close to where he could physically harm the officer, it make sense to fire that many shots. Unless Brown was high on something or had a death wish, how can shooting someone 6 times (once to the head) be justified?

I agree 100% that lethal force, in this case, and in every case, needs to be justified. However, I highly doubt that police officers are trained to shoot, wait a few seconds to see what happens, shoot, wait, shoot, wait. I know that as military police, we weren't trained that way. Once the decision to use deadly force is made, you're all in, and you shoot until they stop advancing.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I think they want the out of towners to just leave them alone.

But because they keep showing up and doing as they please, the only way to do that is to set restrictions on the whole town. So residents doing nothing illegal are stuck because criminals (looters/vandalizers) cannot be bothered to listen.

Because stealing mozzerella and tomato sauce from Papa Johns is totally how to get even.

I'm wondering why any of the police officers in Ferguson would even want to keep working there now. If they didn't know before that they're hated by the residents, they sure do now. I'd resign and be looking for work elsewhere.

 

[Disneychick75]

You make some good points. That being said... I know from experience (not first hand) that being shot, anywhere on your body, is painful. Bullets actually burn. Its similar to holding a match to your skin. Its not like the movies when the killer keeps coming forward, taking multiple bullets.

Michael Brown wasn't a tough kid. He wasn't super human. I can bet he reacted just like any other human-being after having a bullet strike him. I get the speculation but at some point human behavior and the human anatomy come into play. Let's not make this kid out to suddenly be UNSTOPPABLE.

Officers are equipped with several different weapons that are design to "stop" an offender from doing harm. Stun Guns. Pepper Spray. Night Sticks. Officer Wilson MADE the decision to use deadly force and no the task of justifying the use of deadly force must happen. If Brown was THAT close to where he could physically harm the officer, it make sense to fire that many shots. Unless Brown was high on something or had a death wish, how can shooting someone 6 times (once to the head) be justified?

To my knowledge most Law Enforcement officers carry a Glock 19 or 22. Those weapons are DESIGNED to drop someone with just one shot. No matter the size of the individual. Point is... its a powerful weapon.

With that being said... I not SURE if the weapon used was one of the above but best believe, the police don't walk around with Pea-Shooters.

If you want to wait for an angry 6'4" 300 pound guy running at you to get w/in 15 feet so you can use a stun gun and hope the prongs make contact, knock yourself out. I wouldn't. If it's a choice between me or someone wanting to harm me, guess my choice?
Wilson hit him in the arm 4 times, If that didn't stop him, what would? One of the witnesses said he thought Wilson kept missing Brown because he would not stop running.

 

[Geoff_M]

Unless Brown was high on something or had a death wish, how can shooting someone 6 times (once to the head) be justified?

Let me ask you this question in another way... Assuming Brown wasn't high on something like angel dust, what is the upper limit on the number of times an officer may fire on someone that they feel is trying to do them great bodily harm? (Remember, per Johnson's eyewitness report, Wilson had already hit Brown twice in the torso, once in the front and once in the back, with rounds before the final sequence of shots.) So if people are going to say six was "too many" to be justified, than they should have an idea of what's a number that can be justified. And how is the officer supposed to know the right calculus as they pull the trigger?

 

[OurBigTrip]

If you want to wait for an angry 6'4" 300 pound guy running at you to get w/in 15 feet so you can use a stun gun and hope the prongs make contact, knock yourself out. I wouldn't. If it's a choice between me or someone wanting to harm me, guess my choice?
Wilson hit him in the arm 4 times, If that didn't stop him, what would? One of the witnesses said he thought Wilson kept missing Brown because he would not stop running.

Exactly.

God, you just wish you could turn the clock back and give Michael Brown another chance to choose to just get out of the street and onto the damned sidewalk when Officer Wilson told him to.

If you know you just robbed a store, why would you bring attention to yourself by walking down the middle of the street? And once you've done that, and a police officer stops and tells you to get back on the sidewalk, why wouldn't you?

 

[pioneer89]

All sorts of things are possible here.

Brown could have been stopped, but reaching for his pants, or charging, or anything.

The officer could have been firing at Brown when his back was turned, but not hit him until he turned.

A lot of things are possible.

As for the witnesses, most untrained witnesses are really bad at remembering any details at all. The brain loves to "fill in the gaps" and make up details where they don't exist.

I'm sure the witnesses are 100% sure of what they saw/heard, but there is a pretty good likelihood that the evidence will not completely support the witnesses.

 

[pioneer89]

Exactly.

God, you just wish you could turn the clock back and give Michael Brown another chance to choose to just get out of the street and onto the damned sidewalk when Officer Wilson told him to.

If you know you just robbed a store, why would you bring attention to yourself by walking down the middle of the street? And once you've done that, and a police officer stops and tells you to get back on the sidewalk, why wouldn't you?

I wish the same thing, but like I've been told by a lot of people in my life: "You play stupid games, sometimes you win stupid prizes."

 

[Disneychick75]

Exactly.

God, you just wish you could turn the clock back and give Michael Brown another chance to choose to just get out of the street and onto the damned sidewalk when Officer Wilson told him to.

If you know you just robbed a store, why would you bring attention to yourself by walking down the middle of the street? And once you've done that, and a police officer stops and tells you to get back on the sidewalk, why wouldn't you?

I've thought this to myself so many times.

 

[pat fan]

Wilson hit him in the arm 4 times, If that didn't stop him, what would? One of the witnesses said he thought Wilson kept missing Brown because he would not stop running.

And police are notoriously bad shots. At least the state police. My DH was a security guard at a nuke plant and when they had their exam none of the troopers passed first time. Makes you feel safe, huh? Not.

I don't think Mike Brown was unstoppable, but if you are shot in the arm, that does not prevent you from still coming forward, especially if you think you are in deep doo-doo for robbery. Whether Wilson knew he robbed the store is irrelevant, Brown knew it. I just hope there is some ay his family can move on and find peace. The only way I see that happening is for them to move. Get away from this insanity. I don't know how you pick up the pieces if you stay living there. Did they live there? Now that I think on it, he was visiting his grandmother, right? Where did he live?

 

[Suger Mag]

In my mind, and again, NOTHING but conjecture, I see that shot, and the one through the eye, as coming while Brown was falling down. I kind of picture it as the guy has been shot four times, he's starting to slow down and kind of stagger, but still moving forward towards Wilson. Wilson continues to fire, and the last two shots hit Brown as he's actually in the "final stage", for lack of a better term, of falling down, possibly on his knees with his hands in front of him.

Again, ALL conjecture. However, one thing is almost certain about the last shot. It didn't come while Brown was on his knees with his hands up, unless Wilson was standing over him and firing down, which most likely would have left gunshot residue on Brown's head.

It does not take that long to fire 6 shots from an automatic... easily 1- 2 seconds max. Here is a unrelated article that talks about how fast a gun can fire if you are interested in some of the stats for these kind of high power automatic handguns...

3 shots in less than a second for a novice... a trained officer would be even quicker.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...can_you_shoot_a_handgun_in_seven_minutes.html

 

[OurBigTrip]

It does not take that long to fire 6 shots from an automatic... easily 1- 2 seconds max. Here is a unrelated article that talks about how fast a gun can fire if you are interested in some of the stats for these kind of high power automatic handguns...

3 shots in less than a second for a novice... a trained officer would be even quicker.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...can_you_shoot_a_handgun_in_seven_minutes.html

I agree, it takes no time to fire off six rounds with a semi-automatic pistol, which was kind of my point, i.e., a lot can happen in that 2-3 seconds. He's coming towards you, he's falling, he's down.

 

[ericstac]

The clothing Mike Brown was wearing during the shooting is going to tell a lot. Or ... should I say the lack of gun residue will tell the story as it relates whether Mike Brown was "charging" forward in an attempt to harm the officer.

The officer has to feel that his life was in danger in order to justify shooting (at least) 6 times and killing Mike Brown.

Personally, I don't see or understand how someone could feel his or her life is in danger after shooting someone more than once or twice. As I said, the gun powder residue will tell us a lot. So, if Michael Brown was say, less than 3ft away from the officer, the officer may be able to justify the shooting / killing. However, if Officer Wilson was 12ft away it becomes hard to justify shooting a unarmed person and claiming your life was in danger.

My suggestion for you and anyone else who feels the same should sign up for some self defense courses. Forget 12ft, someone 21ft can wreck your life before you have enough time to call out for mommy. Anyone who legally carries a gun; police, military or civilian will tell you you shoot to kill and until that threat is no longer a threat you dont stop..

From the robbery videos I saw he wasn't no small man either. He could of potentially killed the officer with one punch to the head.

 

[Disneychick75]

And police are notoriously bad shots. At least the state police. My DH was a security guard at a nuke plant and when they had their exam none of the troopers passed first time. Makes you feel safe, huh? Not.

I don't think Mike Brown was unstoppable, but if you are shot in the arm, that does not prevent you from still coming forward, especially if you think you are in deep doo-doo for robbery. Whether Wilson knew he robbed the store is irrelevant, Brown knew it. I just hope there is some ay his family can move on and find peace. The only way I see that happening is for them to move. Get away from this insanity. I don't know how you pick up the pieces if you stay living there. Did they live there? Now that I think on it, he was visiting his grandmother, right? Where did he live?

Unfortunately, look at their lawyer, Ben Crump. I was unfamiliar with him until the Martin mess in Florida. He loved to stir the pot back then and it looks like he still does. A Yahoo headline:Lawyer: Exit Wounds indicate Brown surrendered.
No, the wounds indicate no such thing. It will stir more anger. He will try to use intimidation again to force a special prosecutor again, and racial feelings will get worse, again. Deja vu

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Unfortunately, look at their lawyer, Ben Crump. I was unfamiliar with him until the Martin mess in Florida. He loved to stir the pot back then and it looks like he still does. A Yahoo headline:Lawyer: Exit Wounds indicate Brown surrendered.
No, the wounds indicate no such thing. It will stir more anger. He will try to use intimidation again to force a special prosecutor again, and racial feelings will get worse, again. Deja vu

Because bullets only exit the body of those surrendering?

Good gravy!

 

[ericstac]

Unfortunately, look at their lawyer, Ben Crump. I was unfamiliar with him until the Martin mess in Florida. He loved to stir the pot back then and it looks like he still does. A Yahoo headline:Lawyer: Exit Wounds indicate Brown surrendered.
No, the wounds indicate no such thing. It will stir more anger. He will try to use intimidation again to force a special prosecutor again, and racial feelings will get worse, again. Deja vu

yup