How does vandalism and looting accomplish anything???

[livie1205]

"Stolen" from an interesting source . . . Verifiability, not truth.

"To say it in a few words: there are no universal truths in social sciences. As said earlier, there are facts, opinions, facts about opinions and opinions about opinions. Only facts have a truth value, and even then, it's much weaker than for maths and logics."

That is true.

And it is a FACT that someone does not have to use a weapon to kill or hurt you. This is a fact no matter how you look at it or no matter what your opinion is in this case.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Would a dash-cam have made a difference in this instance though? Every dash cam video I've seen on TV has just shown what was directly in front of the patrol car. (It doesn't even seem to give particularly good video of a traffic stop. You could tell if the car drove away, but you can't see the driver well. Even if an altercation occurred between the officer and the driver of the car, it would be unlikely you'd be able to tell who started it or whether the driver reached for something, etc. It would still be a major case of "he said, she said.")

It sounds like the Mike Brown incident mostly either occurred at the side window of the cruiser or after the officer exited the cruiser. Unless the cruiser/dash cam was pointed "just so," it doesn't sound like it would have made any difference in this particular case.

There would at least be audio of what occurred. In combination with the witness statements that would shed a lot of light on the event.

As far as what happened after whatever happened inside the car, again there would be audio and quite possibly video.

 

[CPT Tripss]

That is true.

And it is a FACT that someone does not have to use a weapon to kill or hurt you. This is a fact no matter how you look at it or no matter what your opinion is in this case.

And that fact alone and in isolation doesn't mean anything in a claim of self defense in a shooting. It's just a red herring.

 

[Procrastinate]

I'm not. This isn't even about Michael Brown or Ferguson police. It's a PR game. Reportedly, most of the arrests this week were NOT residents, but

While this is technically correct, the information in the press has been pretty misleading. The vast majority of the arrests were not residents of Ferguson, but were residents of Saint Louis and the surrounding communities. There have been some from as far as NY and CA, but most are definitely locals.

 

[robinb]

Would a dash-cam have made a difference in this instance though? Every dash cam video I've seen on TV has just shown what was directly in front of the patrol car. (It doesn't even seem to give particularly good video of a traffic stop. You could tell if the car drove away, but you can't see the driver well. Even if an altercation occurred between the officer and the driver of the car, it would be unlikely you'd be able to tell who started it or whether the driver reached for something, etc. It would still be a major case of "he said, she said.")

It sounds like the Mike Brown incident mostly either occurred at the side window of the cruiser or after the officer exited the cruiser. Unless the cruiser/dash cam was pointed "just so," it doesn't sound like it would have made any difference in this particular case.

I think a dash cam in conjunction with a body cam would have been instrumental in this case. We would know what officer Wilson saw and exactly what Mike Brown did.

This may have been covered before, but there was a recent study that showed that there was a 50% reduction in "use of force" by officers wearing cameras.

Police Foundation Executive Fellow, Chief Tony Farrar, recently completed an extensive yearlong study to evaluate the effect of body-worn video cameras on police use-of-force. This randomized controlled trail represents the first experimental evaluation of body-worn video cameras used in police patrol practices. Cameras were deployed to all patrol officers in the Rialto (CA) Police Department. Every police patrol shift during the 12-month period was assigned to experimental or control conditions.


Wearing cameras was associated with dramatic reductions in use-of-force and complaints against officers. The authors conclude:

"The findings suggest more than a 50% reduction in the total number of incidents of use-of-force compared to control-conditions, and nearly ten times more citizens’ complaints in the 12-months prior to the experiment."
​

http://www.policefoundation.org/content/body-worn-cameras-police-use-force

Also see:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/business/wearable-video-cameras-for-police-officers.html?_r=2&

 

[Sanchez]

Wilson is getting due process. Brown did not. Even assuming that the use of deadly force was totally legal and justified, there was not due process.

I am thinking that you have no understanding of the concept of due process. Might want to start here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/due_process

 

[Luvchefmic]

Unless anyone here is an attorney, the " due process " term is being thrown around freely here. It would take quite a bit of time to read the actual LEGAL definition and there are two definitions. Understanding it takes time also. Might want to put on a pot of coffee and sit for a bit.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Due+Process+of+Law

I am thinking that you have no understanding of the concept of due process. Might want to start here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/due_process

And now there are two sources of information/definition

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I don't know if in Missouri it's the same as Alabama but here a child in a failing school gets to pick whatever passing school in the district they wanted to attend. I believe at most they should go to the next closest passing school. Their was a child that was transported from the northern part of Mobile county past dozens of other schools to attend the southern most school in the county. An entire bus was used to transport one child over 30 miles one way, that's just ridiculous.

They just implemented this system last yr and it bankrupted the Normandy school district. It is a fight in the house of representatives over shutting down the district.

It was absolutely a nightmare all yr long, with town hall meetings, protests, etc. It was pretty awful & sad for the kids, parents, and teachers.

Citizens have already been protesting in their communities over serious issues. Just to throw out some more perspective regarding the area.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Some of the posters here will appreciate this https://soundcloud.com/mslaurynhill/black-rage-sketch

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I was talking to a friend that grew up in St Louis the other day and when I asked him about the area he said it's not bad but you'd never catch him there after dark.

Would you agree?

I grew up in that area in 1970's & early 80's and have family and friends that still live there.

It really depends on where in Ferguson and why do I have to go there? I used to go to an optician in Ferguson for a long time.

Even back then, you needed "street smarts".

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I noticed a lot of discussion on the Normandy school district that Mike Brown attended and the economic demographics of Ferguson. I don't know if it is pertinent or worth noting, but I don't believe Ferguson residents attend Normandy schools. I believe they attend Ferguson-Florissant district, which is accredited.

Thank you for clarifying.

The piece I posted was from Huffington Post who says that is where Mike Brown went. Also--he was staying with a relative before starting college. (His grandmother, maybe? I forget.)

The importance of that article was that his mom was saying "You don't know how hard it was to keep that boy in school and graduate." (Paraphrase). Doesn't sound like her words were hyperbole.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Would a dash-cam have made a difference in this instance though? Every dash cam video I've seen on TV has just shown what was directly in front of the patrol car. (It doesn't even seem to give particularly good video of a traffic stop. You could tell if the car drove away, but you can't see the driver well. Even if an altercation occurred between the officer and the driver of the car, it would be unlikely you'd be able to tell who started it or whether the driver reached for something, etc. It would still be a major case of "he said, she said.")

It sounds like the Mike Brown incident mostly either occurred at the side window of the cruiser or after the officer exited the cruiser. Unless the cruiser/dash cam was pointed "just so," it doesn't sound like it would have made any difference in this particular case.

I believe officers might be mic'd, so we would have at least has some audio recording. This would have confirmed the statement of Dorian Johnson about what words Officer Wilson actually used. Or prove he lied or exaggerated.

If the car was parked forward facing in the street, it would a be at least provided even a fuzzy picture that would show whether or not Mike Brown stood still or was forward moving prior to being shot.

But I do think there would have at least been audio. That video floating around of the traffic stop where the woman is choking, you can hear everything. The part where sound comes on, upper left of screen says LBR on. So I wonder if the cop turned on the mic.

In any case--the way he parked the car gives car clear view of driver as well as the whole road. Similar camera IF Officer Wilson parked the same way would have obviously proved or disproved the hands up/don't shoot witness claim. It would also address of shots were fired to Mike's back or if only from the front. It would also show Dorian's position since Dorian say Mike told him to run.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EF74YXxnX3g

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What did Dorian Johsnon do or where did he go after the shooting?

He said Mike told him to run so I wonder his he can clearly see the shooting. And if he believed Mike was innocent--I just wonder why cops would let him to or if he took off or what.

Anyone know what his actions were immediately following the shooting?

 

[TLSnell1981]

While this is technically correct, the information in the press has been pretty misleading. The vast majority of the arrests were not residents of Ferguson, but were residents of Saint Louis and the surrounding communities. There have been some from as far as NY and CA, but most are definitely locals.

Thanks for the clarification. Although, is it true, the violence was primarily from non residents?

 

[Disneychick75]

Some of the posters here will appreciate this https://soundcloud.com/mslaurynhill/black-rage-sketch

Our ancestors have all been through stuff. My relatives went through the Holocaust and pogroms and being blamed for everything going wrong in Europe and slavery too. It's history. We don't blame German,Austrian, Polish people that never took part in the horrors. How can we? They are blameless. They did not choose their parents. Thank goodness many of our families have used those experiences to motivate and build better lives. It gave our grandparents the "we'll show them" attitude and a determination to succeed.

These past atrocities are in the past, not something we dwell on. Do we think about it, sure. It's the same with many black families families and other families around the world whose history has been painful. It happened, it's past, now we move on and make better lives.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Thank you for clarifying.

The piece I posted was from Huffington Post who says that is where Mike Brown went. Also--he was staying with a relative before starting college. (His grandmother, maybe? I forget.)

The importance of that article was that his mom was saying "You don't know how hard it was to keep that boy in school and graduate." (Paraphrase). Doesn't sound like her words were hyperbole.

Most certainly NOT hyperbole. It was an ugly yr. for the Normandy District. That is what we had on our news all last yr.

 

[Procrastinate]

Thanks for the clarification. Although, is it true, the violence was primarily from non residents?

Here is a link to the news story with information on those arrested:

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/21/ferguson-protests-arrests-locations/14416779/

 

[NotUrsula]

I was talking to a friend that grew up in St Louis the other day and when I asked him about the area he said it's not bad but you'd never catch him there after dark.

Would you agree?

DH grew up 6 blocks from the site of the shooting, and he still has a lot of friends who live there. That one particular neighborhood (the 3 Section-8 apt. complexes to the east of W. Florissant), is now quite dangerous at night, but the rest of Ferguson isn't.. There are several good restaurants and a micro-brewery in the "Old Ferguson" historic district on the north side of town, and we go there often.

What's odd about Mike Brown having graduated from Normandy HS is that kids in this neighborhood don't normally go to Normandy (and especially not this past year, with the transfer agreement in place. Normandy HS was just about empty.) The normal High School for that area is McCluer.

 

[Viva Las Disney]

I think it should be a requirement that every police vehicle in the US have an operational camera. That way there is transparency in every situation and both parties are held responsible for their actions.

This is so overdue. I think it's inexcusable we've had this technology for years and haven't used it, every officer should have a collar cam.

Cameras don't necessarily eliminate controversy but they do provide valuable evidence and context.

Someone recorded the other police shooting in St Louis (the one with the knife) from start to finish, they were already recording the guy that stole the sodas when the police showed up so the camera was already rolling. I thought it looked like a clear case of suicide by cop but even with the video people are already debating whether deadly force was necessary.

Debate will always happen but at least with a video the debate is based on some sort of evidence rather than "he said, she said" speculation.

ETA: the video is available on youtube and several news outlets for anyone interested but I'm not going to link to it because it shows someone getting shot and killed.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

DH grew up 6 blocks from the site of the shooting, and he still has a lot of friends who live there. That one particular neighborhood (the 3 Section-8 apt. complexes to the east of W. Florissant), is now quite dangerous at night, but the rest of Ferguson isn't.. There are several good restaurants and a micro-brewery in the "Old Ferguson" historic district on the north side of town, and we go there often.

What's odd about Mike Brown having graduated from Normandy HS is that kids in this neighborhood don't normally go to Normandy (and especially not this past year, with the transfer agreement in place. Normandy HS was just about empty.) The normal High School for that area is McCluer.

He temporarily was living with a relative after his graduation per earlier reports. This was not his regular neighborhood.