How do you feel about school vouchers?

[chobie]

I absolutely agree with you, that Education is a state matter, however the OP was saying it was unconstitutional in a Federal Manner, IE seperation of church and state, which it has been shown by a PP that even the Supream Court disagreed that it is unconstitutional.

Also, If you wish to argue something violates a State Constitution, then you must amend your statment to refect your speaking of the state, otherwise the indication is the Federal Constitution.

On a side note, since it is a State Matter, can someone explain why we have a Federal Department of Education?

The right to an education is not in the constitution. However, it is in the constitution that Congress can tax and spend for the general welfare. So that is what they are doing with the Fed Dept of Ed. And with federal grants of money -Congress can attach conditions to the money.

 

[mrsltg]

Parents caring isn't enough. When you've got a bloated, corrupt, inept school system — as most inner cities do — and a political apparatus through the NEA that is ONLY interested in maintaining the status quo, the only thing that will bring change is competition for students. Monopolies always result in poor goods and services. Seriously, Google for news stories about school districts such as Detroit, DC, Los Angeles Unified. You will be shocked — I mean really SHOCKED — at the level of corruption that goes unchallenged because of the nexus of political interests and political power. Again, it is a national disgrace…and generation after generation of poor children are paying the price.

I agree 100%. I find the illiteracy rate among high school graduates in this country appalling. I find the constant scream for "more money" for schools even moreso. More money is not the answer. All too often inner city public schools are a waste of time and money. There is no time to fix them because every day wasted trying out a new solution or teaching method or attendance policy is another day for another poor kid to cement their status in life. I find it deplorable that the "haves" bicker over public funds and whether or not children should be given the option for a better education.

Public education has become a disgrace with American children falling further and further behind while we scratch our heads and throw more money at the problem.

 

[BrerMom]

Not sure if this is directed towards me, but I'll answer. I am not going to generalize about parents in the low performing schools. My main concern is that the schools on the list who are accepting vouchers are going to suddenly be "full" when it comes to actually taking the kids in, leaving a few schools to accept the bulk of the kids. Everything in the Catholic schools here is based on SAT scores. Schools with lower SAT scores are given a bad rap, without even taking into consideration that they are taking in the kids the other schools weed out. If the kids are below level, which many of them are, a large influx of them into one school is definitely going to impact their school's scores. I'm not saying it's right- it's just the way things are.


I've encountered many teachers in the public school system, and most of them are EXCELLENT. They are shouldering a lot of the blame for the failing schools, which is not fair IMO. In talking to them, they often talk about the lack of parental involvement, students who don't show up for school until after Labor Day (missing about 2-3 weeks of school since we start in August), and parents who don't bother to come for conferences. This is not ALL of the parents, but it's prevalent enough across the board for this to be experienced by many teachers.

And this "it's ok to be absent" attitude isn't just shared by parents who don't really care if their kids succeed. Just read any thread on "Is it ok to take my kids out of school for a vacation?" Family Time is always billed as more important than school. And it's getting much more prevalent. I routinely have kids missing 1-2 weeks of school for vacations. It doesn't matter when the school vacation is or how long it is, parents will make their own plans. The ones that confuse me are the ones that will come back from the two-week winter break for a week or so and then be gone for another week or so to go skiing or to WDW or to wherever. The ones that make me frustrated are the ones that skip conferences to go on vacation since their kid will miss fewer days because of the schedule, but then they'll ask me to stay after school to have a special conference with them because they're the involved parents, after all. This is more of a problem with elementary and middle schools where the policy seems to be "you can miss as much school as you want and still be socially promoted." These kids have a very difficult time adjusting to high school.

We have schools of choice with public school districts. A district must release a student if the desired district has a program the assigned district doesn't offer. A district can be requested to release a student for any reason, but they don't have to honor the request. Experience has shown that parents that have their request denied either try to make the district's administrators miserable enough that they release the student or they transfer their student to a private school. A released student does not have to be accepted by the desired district. Students have been denied for poor attendance, history of violence, etc. Transportation is not provided. The state money is transferred with the student to the new district. An unethical (my judgment, sorry) charter school here will keep students until after "count day" when the state decides how much $$ each district gets and then release (kick out) students back to their home districts. The charter school gets to keep a semester's worth of state money for that student. The students also show up just in time to take the state tests in the assigned district.

 

[disneyjunkie]

Not sure if this is directed towards me, but I'll answer. I am not going to generalize about parents in the low performing schools. My main concern is that the schools on the list who are accepting vouchers are going to suddenly be "full" when it comes to actually taking the kids in, leaving a few schools to accept the bulk of the kids. Everything in the Catholic schools here is based on SAT scores. Schools with lower SAT scores are given a bad rap, without even taking into consideration that they are taking in the kids the other schools weed out. If the kids are below level, which many of them are, a large influx of them into one school is definitely going to impact their school's scores. I'm not saying it's right- it's just the way things are.


I've encountered many teachers in the public school system, and most of them are EXCELLENT. They are shouldering a lot of the blame for the failing schools, which is not fair IMO. In talking to them, they often talk about the lack of parental involvement, students who don't show up for school until after Labor Day (missing about 2-3 weeks of school since we start in August), and parents who don't bother to come for conferences. This is not ALL of the parents, but it's prevelant enough across the board for this to be experienced by many teachers.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was responding to a few other posters. I should have quoted them.

Believe me, I understand your concerns.

I think it sad that there are CHRISTIAN schools that will turn those students away based on where they are coming from. I can understand showing them the door if they don't behave or don't maintain a certain average. I can understand asking them to leave if the parents refuse to be involved. But to close the door on these students without giving them a chance to prove themselves is disgusting.

 

[Pigeon]

I'm totally opposed to vouchers on just about every level there is.

 

[castleview]

I agree 100%. I find the illiteracy rate among high school graduates in this country appalling.

Public education has become a disgrace with American children falling further and further behind while we scratch our heads and throw more money at the problem.

I still think you should see if any of these illiterate children have newspapers or books in their houses. You'd be surprised at how many parents don't encourage education. Come to think of it when DH taught in the inner city and called a parent - it was rare that he actually got a parent. Some kids are living in situations where education is the farthest concern.

 

[RitaZ.]

I am a public school teacher and I TOTALLY support vouchers in areas where the schools have a long track record of failure and under-achievement. Making taxpayers continue to pay for failing schools should be a crime. For example, the Detroit Public Schools per pupil spending is nearly $12,000, and they have a 21% graduation rate. Appalling. And voucher proponents in Michigan are asking for vouchers of about $3,000, so the state will still get $8,000 in tax funding for students they won't be teaching. How could any sane person oppose this? I'll tell you what, they oppose it because it isn't THEIR kids attending those failing schools. When I used to hear Hillary Clinton talking about this issue and her opposition to it I'd scream at the TV "You sent YOUR kid to a $20,000 a year private school so she wouldn't have to attend the Washington, DC, public schools, you hypocrite!" But guess who is the biggest lobbying organization in America? The National Education Association (teachers unions). They own the politicians, and children suffer. It's a national disgrace.

 

[bookgirl]

I think that the price for belonging to a free democratic society is that you pay taxes to support some common "services" like medicaid, social security, WIC, public schools, police and fire, and public works. You pay it whether you need or use the services.

If you decide to put your kids in private school then it's your choice to pay for it. If your school sucks, change schools (I say if you're school is failing then maybe the community needs to be more involved with the school and that school gets first "dibs" at funds), change districts, home school, protest and attend board meetings, but it's not the freaking return desk at macy's. You don't get to pull public funds to send them private.

You don't get a voucher from the police department for hiring private security guards. You don't get a voucher if you have private insurance after the age of 70. You don't get a grocery voucher if you don't use public assistance. Heck you don't get a check from the Department of Transportation if you don't drive a car.

 

[mrsltg]

I still think you should see if any of these illiterate children have newspapers or books in their houses. You'd be surprised at how many parents don't encourage education. Come to think of it when DH taught in the inner city and called a parent - it was rare that he actually got a parent. Some kids are living in situations where education is the farthest concern.

Then why bother sending them to school in the first place? Why not have a parental involvement qualification and if your parents fail to meet the criteria you don't attend school? This would serve a dual purpose - 1. society could save the money they are wasting on providing the useless school setting to these children (and instead put it toward their inevitable incarceration.) and, 2. people who pretend to care about the lower class could just admit what they expect from these people - failure.

Whether or not there is a book or a newspaper in the home does not determine whether or not someone's parent(s) care about their education. There are absolutely people who don't care - HOWEVER - if even ONE kid gets a better education and finds a way out of poverty it is worth it.

Vouchers are a turf war plain and simple. Those who profit from keeping these kids where they are concern me. Whether it be a mayor, a school superintendent, principal, teacher, etc., the idea of letting these kids languish is okay as long as the school gets their money and the status doesn't change. For the life of me I cannot understand what it will hurt if these kids are given the chance to succeed.

 

[NikiM20]

I live not to far from the OP (within 100 miles) and I am against vouchers. A private school is not private if anyone can go. Many parents have many reasons for chosing private schools. If people dont have to pay for private school, how long before the private schools are = to public schools and they are right back where they began. They need to redo the ENTIRE public school system to where people would want to send their kids to public school

 

[disneyjunkie]

I live not to far from the OP (within 100 miles) and I am against vouchers. A private school is not private if anyone can go. Many parents have many reasons for chosing private schools. If people dont have to pay for private school, how long before the private schools are = to public schools and they are right back where they began. They need to redo the ENTIRE public school system to where people would want to send their kids to public school

Every private school I've encountered has a code of conduct. If you don't adhere to the school's expectations, you're asked to leave. Private schools can get rid of those students who refuse to follow the rules. I don't see why things would be any different if they accept vouchers.

 

[Took]

The right to an education is not in the constitution. However, it is in the constitution that Congress can tax and spend for the general welfare. So that is what they are doing with the Fed Dept of Ed. And with federal grants of money -Congress can attach conditions to the money.

Bingo. Well put. No one is entitled to a (religious) education. The "general welfare" is all we have to think about.

Also, I agree with those who say parental invovlement makes the difference. I pulled DD out of a private religious school and put her into an excellent public school. Quite frankly, both of us are happier.

took

 

[tinatark]

Florida has a voucher program similar to the one the OP is talking about - if the school receives a failing grade for a certain # of consecutive years, the parents can pull them out and get voucher $ for a private school. There's also the McKay scholarship - students with IEP's can get the $ the state would have paid to the public school system in voucher form to use at a voucher-accepting school.

I agree with and support the voucher programs - parents should have a choice, and, if the public school systems knew their cash could be reduced as students leave and enroll in private schools, those would be improved as well. That's what typically happens in FL - as a schools' students are about to be voucher eligible, the school makes vast improvements.

 

[castleview]

Every private school I've encountered has a code of conduct. If you don't adhere to the school's expectations, you're asked to leave. Private schools can get rid of those students who refuse to follow the rules. I don't see why things would be any different if they accept vouchers.

Because they would be taking govt. money and have to abide by their rules. It might not happen at first, but it will happen eventually. I remember reading about a voucher student who was Baptist and the mother objected to her saying a Catholic prayer at the Catholic school she was given a voucher to attend!

 

[NikiM20]

Every private school I've encountered has a code of conduct. If you don't adhere to the school's expectations, you're asked to leave. Private schools can get rid of those students who refuse to follow the rules. I don't see why things would be any different if they accept vouchers.

I want to explain, I am not trying to be ugly.
Disclaimer: This is all hypothetical.
Say school X is a failing public school and kids are at Level 4. Those parents put their kids in school Y (Private) where the children are at Level 1.

Y school then has to play "catch up" with students from X school, basically reviewing what students at Y school all along already knew.

I know it sounds easy to "put them in another class" or whatnot, but many private schools are small and only have 1 class per grade. that is my experience with private schools. It has nothing to do with code of conduct or following the rules. Just if the teacher has to "reteach", then current students are not learning , just reviewing.

Once again, this has nothing to do with behavior etc.

 

[dsanner106]

The one thing that struck me when looking at a list of countries with the top education systems is that every single one above the US on the list spent dramatically less per student to provide a better education. It is time we give up on the raise taxes and throw money at the school systems plan. The nice thing about vouchers is it actually makes the schools accountable. They will now WANT to perform, in fact NEED to perform better.

D

 

[castleview]

Then why bother sending them to school in the first place? Why not have a parental involvement qualification and if your parents fail to meet the criteria you don't attend school? This would serve a dual purpose - 1. society could save the money they are wasting on providing the useless school setting to these children (and instead put it toward their inevitable incarceration.) and, 2. people who pretend to care about the lower class could just admit what they expect from these people - failure.

Whether or not there is a book or a newspaper in the home does not determine whether or not someone's parent(s) care about their education. There are absolutely people who don't care - HOWEVER - if even ONE kid gets a better education and finds a way out of poverty it is worth it.

Vouchers are a turf war plain and simple. Those who profit from keeping these kids where they are concern me. Whether it be a mayor, a school superintendent, principal, teacher, etc., the idea of letting these kids languish is okay as long as the school gets their money and the status doesn't change. For the life of me I cannot understand what it will hurt if these kids are given the chance to succeed.

Any education is a privilege. If a parent doesn't take advantage of that, it doesn't matter what kind of school they are in. A kid's chance at succeeding starts at home and too many kids have two strikes against them when they come to school.

 

[BrerMom]

The one thing that struck me when looking at a list of countries with the top education systems is that every single one above the US on the list spent dramatically less per student to provide a better education. It is time we give up on the raise taxes and throw money at the school systems plan. The nice thing about vouchers is it actually makes the schools accountable. They will now WANT to perform, in fact NEED to perform better.

D

Got a link?

The problem with looking at lists like this is that it appears to be comparing apples to apples when that is not always the case. I would be interested in knowing how many of the countries above the US educate every single child to the same standards the way we do. Also, we were talking about level of parental commitment - in some countries, I believe Japan was on that list, the parents spend an incredible amount for out-of-school tutoring sessions, sometimes even more than the government spends per child. It was pointed out that in the US, we are much more likely to spend money on sports for our kids than tutoring. We could also discuss the time commitment in out-of-school help vs. sports practices & games. Disclaimer - my kids love sports, too. I'm not suggesting we get rid of sports, just realize that learning should come first.

 

[castleview]

The one thing that struck me when looking at a list of countries with the top education systems is that every single one above the US on the list spent dramatically less per student to provide a better education. It is time we give up on the raise taxes and throw money at the school systems plan. The nice thing about vouchers is it actually makes the schools accountable. They will now WANT to perform, in fact NEED to perform better.

D

Aye aye aye! Ok, so let's say we now have vouchers. Example: a
A Catholic school that spends less per child, now has to accept special needs students. Some of those students need individual aides and a resource period to accommodate their needs. The Catholic school has to hire new aides and a teacher because state law requires it. So the cost of educating each student now goes up.

Then you have other students that are way behind for whatever reason (what they learned not being reinforced at home, just not as smart as other kids, etc.). You'll have to hire a new teacher because these kids would only hold up the kids who are up to speed and beyond. And when you're working with lower levels, you need smaller class sizes. You might even need an addition since most private schools aren't very big. Again, the cost per student goes up.

Do you see where I'm going? If private schools take vouchers, they will have to do everything the public school does and that will eat up their budget.

I put my kids in a good public school where I'm involved. I spent three months going to treacherous board meetings to make sure my kid's class size didn't go above 25. My child knows I value education just like the private school children whose parents are busting their hump to pay tuition.

I'm sorry, but vouchers are just another handout for people to not appreciate.

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

I am a public school teacher and I TOTALLY support vouchers in areas where the schools have a long track record of failure and under-achievement. Making taxpayers continue to pay for failing schools should be a crime. For example, the Detroit Public Schools per pupil spending is nearly $12,000, and they have a 21% graduation rate. Appalling. And voucher proponents in Michigan are asking for vouchers of about $3,000, so the state will still get $8,000 in tax funding for students they won't be teaching. How could any sane person oppose this? I'll tell you what, they oppose it because it isn't THEIR kids attending those failing schools. When I used to hear Hillary Clinton talking about this issue and her opposition to it I'd scream at the TV "You sent YOUR kid to a $20,000 a year private school so she wouldn't have to attend the Washington, DC, public schools, you hypocrite!" But guess who is the biggest lobbying organization in America? The National Education Association (teachers unions). They own the politicians, and children suffer. It's a national disgrace.

I'm a few posts behind but I had to respond. I can't believe public school teachers don't see through the voucher system. In most states the voucher system provides only a small about about $3k to $5k to the student's family and the school has to show NO signs of improvement. In KY $3k won't touch the tutition and fees at a decent private school. Also, while we are on the subject...why do people automatically assume that private schools are good schools???

Also, I like to address the idea that Hillary Clinton sent Chelsea to a private school...yes, Chelsea went to a private school in Washington. AFTER the Clinton's had expressed their wishes that Chelsea attend public school (as she had done in Arkansas while Bill was Governor), it was the secret service that talked them out of a public school because they would not have as many options for security. The Clinton's get in enough trouble on their own...I hate it when they get blamed for crap they didn't actually do

The National Teachers Association is not even in the top 50 biggest lobbyists according to the latest article from the Washington Post...it is a company called Patton Boggs...among others they represent the Mars company. The reason soldiers get a snickers or milky way in their soldier packs.