How do I determine the best value??

Okay, let's try this. :)

The following chart is based on a 100 point purchase.

Try the same chart, but this time use a studio room during Adventure season for a per night cost - for resorts with more than own category, you'll need a second/third column (i.e. BLT Standard, Lake and Theme Park) to get a room night cost. BWV Standard View will come out to be a relative bargain compared to the other near park resorts - OKW and SSR will still be the great deals. The Poly and Grand Floridian will start to look pricey.
 
As Crisi said you need to also look at the point requirements at each resort. Your chart @beagee is good for a comparison of point costs at 7 months because you can use them at any location. If you are planning to use mostly at your home resort though the figures will change based on point requirements for those rooms.
 
Try the same chart, but this time use a studio room during Adventure season for a per night cost - for resorts with more than own category, you'll need a second/third column (i.e. BLT Standard, Lake and Theme Park) to get a room night cost. BWV Standard View will come out to be a relative bargain compared to the other near park resorts - OKW and SSR will still be the great deals. The Poly and Grand Floridian will start to look pricey.
I'm glad you said this! @beagee, be sure to factor where you intend to stay...consider this - the 8 nights I'm vacationing this year will cost 96 points for a BWV studio vs 154 points to stay at a Poly studio. That's $964.80 to stay at BWV and $1436.82 to stay at Poly based on you out of pocket math. Another way to look at it is that I can buy 1.58 BWV points for the price of 1 Poly point. Or...pretend you do a single $10,000 purchase. This would technically buy me 2596 lifetime BWV points, or 3090 lifetime Poly points. So even though you get over 20 extra RTU years with Poly, your money buys you very few extra points over the entire life of the contract.
 
Okay, let's try this. :)

The following chart is based on a 100 point purchase. The Poly cost per point (CPP) price of 165/pt is based on a direct purchase; the other CPP numbers are from a resale website that lists weighted average prices. Before I did this chart, I was basically ready to purchase at BCV or BWV, but I can't make that math make sense. Over the life of the remaining deed, BCV, BWV and Wilderness are actually more expensive than buying from Disney directly. I have to assume that the prices of those three resorts will fall significantly in the next few years ... or am I missing something? I'd love for someone to check me on these numbers or chime in with another way to look at the data.

LOOKING AT A 100-POINT BLOCK PURCHASE....

Screenshot%202016-01-19%2014.45_zpsgqthhfc5.png
I needed to see this! This helped me figure out that "OOP" cost for the 8 days I'm going this year would cost me $2597 at BCV, $1990 at BWV (standard view) and $2503 at WLV for a 1Br. I believe you have helped answer my initial question :)
 

Just to forewarn you. We bought 80 points direct in 2014 to use for F&W. We were torn between BCV and BWV and both were the same cost direct. Even though we prefer BCV to BWV we went with BWV in order to save points with standard view. I just, at 11 months out, booked for Oct 2016. Day of the 11 month window...minutes into the window...some days in standard view for a studio were missing as was boardwalk view. I had to take pool/garden view. Now I watched for a few weeks and 1BR villas were available for a bit, but now some of those day are also missing. 2BR villas were like the studios for some reason.

End of Sept all the way through to New Year's Eve is tough to book at BWV. Also, as already mentioned, VWL is tough to book for Xmas season (from Thanksgiving through NYE) if you don't own there. And BCV is tough to book from June through NYE if you don't own there (probably spring break too)...cause of the great pool and it's a small resort. I'd scrap your # crunching (it is pretty close anyway) and go for which resort you want to get the most that would be toughest to book if you didn't own there.
 
2BR villas were like the studios for some reason.
.

Because the 2BR's at BWV are all lock-offs when a part of them is booked up then there can't be any 2BR's booked. It's usually the studios being gone that will cause.
 
Yep, if you want to travel in the last quarter of the year, the BWV Standard Views are tough to get for even owners - as is the Boardwalk view - which is a great view for the same number of points as looking at the parking lot at VWL or the road at BCV.

But the rest of the year, booking eleven months out, are still pretty easy to get as an owner.
 
Let me apologize up front for this novel of a post... My head is spinning with numbers and I would greatly appreciate some direction and perspective.

DH and I bought a weeks worth of AKL points direct, clearly we overpaid, but no sense in dwelling on the past. Moving forward, our plan is to own enough points to spend two weeks at WDW a year. We have school age children, so we intend to either do 2 consecutive weeks over Christmas break, or 1 week over spring break and the other at an off season time in November. The number of points needed to achieve this per year are almost identical (2 weeks over Christmas/ 2 weeks split between peak and off season). The idea is to bank/borrow and alternate the resort we stay at each year.

Now for the numbers. We want to buy approximately enough points for 1 week at another resort. We have 3 primary contenders...VBW, VBC, VWL. Each resort requires a different number of points for those specific time periods, and those points have a different cost...but some how, after looking at dozens of figures, it isn't clear if one is a better value over the other. They all have the same RTU period, and somehow all seem to fall within $500-$800/yr of each other when determining their week long value (when factoring the cost of the points, how man points I would actually be buying (annual points X the remaining life of the contract) and the dues per point). For example, it would cost roughly $5.9k a year for the AKL/VBC contracts, $5.1k for the AKL/VBW contracts and $5.6k for the AKL/VWL contracts. That doesn't really seem like a huge figure in the long run.

Anyone have some thoughts on this?? Should I really only focus on the dues since that is what will be owed for the duration of the RTU period (assuming we pay cash for the contract)? Did I WAY over complicate this??? I'm just trying to figure out if the value is really as similar as it seems to be cost wise.
For those 3 resorts I don't think there's a big difference. BWV should be a little cheaper than BCV for the same number of points but also potentially require less points than BCV. For this situation I might be tempted to wait and see what the options are for VWL II with the ? fixed week option and of course, the higher price and longer RTU. The price day 1 shouldn't be that bad compared to the options you're looking at though it'll clearly be more. I wouldn't include the AKV you currently own in the calculations though. What you could do is let price and the quality of the contract be your final guide. A slightly smaller but loaded contract would likely be a better deal than a lessor contract. I would match up UY in this situation, I think this is an absolute in this circumstance if you have a good UY. If you have a bad UY for your situation, I'd likely go with a different one.
 
Okay, let's try this. :)

The following chart is based on a 100 point purchase. The Poly cost per point (CPP) price of 165/pt is based on a direct purchase; the other CPP numbers are from a resale website that lists weighted average prices. Before I did this chart, I was basically ready to purchase at BCV or BWV, but I can't make that math make sense. Over the life of the remaining deed, BCV, BWV and Wilderness are actually more expensive than buying from Disney directly. I have to assume that the prices of those three resorts will fall significantly in the next few years ... or am I missing something? I'd love for someone to check me on these numbers or chime in with another way to look at the data.

LOOKING AT A 100-POINT BLOCK PURCHASE....

Screenshot%202016-01-19%2014.45_zpsgqthhfc5.png
Your Vero Beach fees are way off; they're over $8.

The calculation is simply: ((Points * Years Remaining) / Price ) + Maintenance Fees
 
I'd scrap your # crunching (it is pretty close anyway) and go for which resort you want to get the most that would be toughest to book if you didn't own there.

This is what I did. I stopped trying to make the numbers work. In the end this is something I wanted and I wanted to know that I could book BCV during a long weekend in the fall. Is it the best financial decision I made, No, but it makes me happy. :)
 
Your Vero Beach fees are way off; they're over $8.

The calculation is simply: ((Points * Years Remaining) / Price ) + Maintenance Fees

Might that be the subsidized dues? I can't find that number but it was significantly less although not appropriate to use for the calculation. Just not to forget that those contracts do exist.
 
Okay, let's try this. :)

The following chart is based on a 100 point purchase. The Poly cost per point (CPP) price of 165/pt is based on a direct purchase; the other CPP numbers are from a resale website that lists weighted average prices. Before I did this chart, I was basically ready to purchase at BCV or BWV, but I can't make that math make sense. Over the life of the remaining deed, BCV, BWV and Wilderness are actually more expensive than buying from Disney directly. I have to assume that the prices of those three resorts will fall significantly in the next few years ... or am I missing something? I'd love for someone to check me on these numbers or chime in with another way to look at the data.

In my opinion, the reason your numbers do not make sense is that they ignore the time value of money. You are physically paying for the time share up front, plus an annual maintenance charge. You receive the benefits in the future.

The points are interesting, but they are not that relevant for the economic analysis. They are quite useful for allocating your entitlement over different sizes, resorts, and weeks over a three year period, but they aren’t useful for the economics. You need to follow the cash.

What would you be willing to pay today to get a hotel room next year? For sake of argument, lets say average rate for hotel room (roughly equivalent to a studio) at Grand Floridian is $750 per night, and my points will get me 5 nights. The value today of the hotel room is $3,750. But what if Disney gives me an offer to reserve the hotel room in a year, but I have to pay today. I will say no thank you. I will keep my money for a year, and then pay my $3,750 then. So to get me to pay now, Disney has to offer a discount. Let's say they give me a 10% discount. I pay $3,375 today, and I get something worth $3,750 in a year. Depending on other ways to use my money, that may or may not be a good deal. But I am sure that I am going in a year, so I take the deal.

Now Disney offers me five days in the Grand Floridian in two years. I certainly am not going to value this offer at the standard rate. I am going to apply my ten percent discount for 2 years. So I am willing to pay $3,750 x (1 - .1) x (1-.1) which equals $3,038.

Similar calculations for years 3 thru 49 let us see the value relative to time.
  1. $3,375 = $3,750 x .9
  2. $3,038 = $3,750 x .9 squared
  3. $2,734 = $3,750 x .9 to the third power
  4. etc. see spreadsheet below
When you look at it this way, you see that most of the value of your purchase comes in years 1-10. A smaller amount comes in years 11-20. And then a very small tail comes in years 21-49.

Here are three scenarios. A 10% discount, a 15% discount, and a 20% discount. For simplicity, we will discount the maintenance fees at the same rate as the hotel discounts.

So, we pay, in your example, $153 per point x 100 points, or $15,300. Plus yearly maintenance of $571.

In the 10% scenario, we get hotel rooms worth $33,557 less maintenance of $5,110 for a net of $28,447 in todays dollars. If we subtract our purchase price of $15,300, we are in the black to the tune of $13,147.

In the 15% scenario, we get hotel rooms worth $$21,243 in todays dollars, offset by maintenance fees of $3,235 for a net of $18,008. If we subtract our purchase price of $15,300, we are in the black by $2,708.

But if we require a 20% discount to part with our money for the next 49 years, the hotel rooms are worth $15,000, offset by the maintenance at $2,284, for a net of $12,716. If we subtract our purchase price of $15,300, we are in the red at -$2,584.

This shows that in a quick and dirty analysis, DVC breaks even if you assume you are getting hotel rooms at somewhere between a 15% and 20% discount (say 17.5%).

It is also interesting to note the timeline.

In the 10% scenario, you get 66% of the benefits in years 1-10. You get an additional 23% of the benefits in years 11-20. In years 21-49, you get the final 12% of the benefits. If that seems low, ask yourself what you would be willing to pay today for a hotel room in 49 years.

In the 15% scenario, you get 80% of the benefits in the first 10 years. You get an additional 16% in years 11-20. In years 21-49, you get the final 4% of the benefits.

In the 20% scenario, you get 89% of the benefits in the first 10 years. You get an additional 10% in years 11-20. You get the final 1% of value in years 21 through 49.

Perhaps this is why people are telling you that the resort end dates are not a huge factor in the analysis.

If you did a similar analysis for the other resorts, say BCV for 27 years vs. an equivalent hotel room, you can start comparing the economics.

Also, the 10%, 15%, and 20% numbers are representative of YOUR PREFERENCE for money today versus benefits in the future. If you prefer a 10% discount tomorrow rather than your cash money today, DVC makes sense. If you would require a discount of 17.5% before parting with your money today, DVC breaks even. So it still sort of gets back to “how bad do you want it.?”

Screen Shot 2016-01-19 at 10.41.03 PM.png
 
Try the same chart, but this time use a studio room during Adventure season for a per night cost - for resorts with more than own category, you'll need a second/third column (i.e. BLT Standard, Lake and Theme Park) to get a room night cost. BWV Standard View will come out to be a relative bargain compared to the other near park resorts - OKW and SSR will still be the great deals. The Poly and Grand Floridian will start to look pricey.

I had actually done that but didn't include it in my original post. (well, for June at least). I edited to add those columns.
 
This is what I did. I stopped trying to make the numbers work. In the end this is something I wanted and I wanted to know that I could book BCV during a long weekend in the fall. Is it the best financial decision I made, No, but it makes me happy. :)
Yup. VWL is my next purchase and it really probably makes no sense numbers wise but I long to stay there during Xmas decoration time
 
[QUOTE="miTnosnhoJ

Now Disney offers me five days in the Grand Floridian in two years. I certainly am not going to value this offer at the standard rate. I am going to apply my ten percent discount for 2 years. So I am willing to pay $3,750 x (1 - .1) x (1-.1) which equals $3,038.

View attachment 146494[/QUOTE]

This is a really great post. Thank you. Is your choice of 10/15/20% arbitrary?
 
[QUOTE="miTnosnhoJ

Now Disney offers me five days in the Grand Floridian in two years. I certainly am not going to value this offer at the standard rate. I am going to apply my ten percent discount for 2 years. So I am willing to pay $3,750 x (1 - .1) x (1-.1) which equals $3,038.

This is a really great post. Thank you. Is your choice of 10/15/20% arbitrary?[/QUOTE]

It is somewhat arbitrary, that is why I used a range of numbers to show where the answer changed. You can make this more complex by adding in inflation, but at 10%, 15%, 20% these are high enough that you can assume inflation is already in there. It appeals to logic that you would not part with your money for 50 years without a benefit (discount). However, it is counterintuitive that the lower the benefit you require, the better the numbers look. The reason is that if you only require a discount of 10% to make it worth your while, the dollars in the out years become more valuable.
 
It is somewhat arbitrary, that is why I used a range of numbers to show where the answer changed. You can make this more complex by adding in inflation, but at 10%, 15%, 20% these are high enough that you can assume inflation is already in there. It appeals to logic that you would not part with your money for 50 years without a benefit (discount). However, it is counterintuitive that the lower the benefit you require, the better the numbers look. The reason is that if you only require a discount of 10% to make it worth your while, the dollars in the out years become more valuable.

Another thing to consider...If I assume the cost of a VGF hotel room ($3750) I get one answer. If instead, I use the cost of renting a studio at VGF (maybe $1600), and I assume rentals are available every year, then the numbers never work out.
 
Another thing to consider...If I assume the cost of a VGF hotel room ($3750) I get one answer. If instead, I use the cost of renting a studio at VGF (maybe $1600), and I assume rentals are available every year, then the numbers never work out.
The numbers never work out as a renter but you also never control your reservations and that introduces a level of worry that is a cost.

Also, whether using a broker or an individual owner, rentals are hard to change reservations once made.

I make so many reservation changes that its second nature to me. You can't do that being a serial renter. That's an intangible cost but a large one in my book.

You COULD buy a small contract and transfer in points every year, but that requires a lot of work as well.

The numbers might not work if you factor in being a serial renter, but then, in my book, DVC wouldn't work, either.
 



















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