Hillary Supporters unite part 2; no bashing please

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I'll grant you the FISA one. But in all fairness McCain has also showed a great lack of integrity. His flip flop on torture for one. So, if it comes to a lesser evil, that's still Obama for me because of the Supreme Court if nothing else. This Roberts/Alito/Scalia/Thomas voting block scares the **** out of me and all we need is one more of them appointed -and that is what McCain said he would do-nominate another one of those.

I understand the "devil you know" attitude toward McCain and its precisely because of I know that devil I would never vote for him no matter who had won the Democratic nomination or how they won the nomination. YMMV

Exactly, Chobie, that's the issue for many. I was going to add something to that effect to my post but didn't. If Obama had let us know him before running, perhaps it would be a different matter. And by 'know him" I don't mean a book he wrote talking about himself, or speeches. I wish he had let us know him by his actions. By having stayed longer in the Senate, and not having voted "present" so many times in the brief time ha has been in office.

He is asking us to trust the most important job in the nation to an unknown, to just have faith in him. But his actions so far scare too many people who can't just trust what he says, because he says it. esp when he acts he seems a different man.

And no, I don't like McCain either. I feel awful about both of them
 
Exactly, Chobie, that's the issue for many. I was going to add something to that effect to my post but didn't. If Obama had let us know him before running, perhaps it would be a different matter. And by 'know him" I don't mean a book he wrote talking about himself, or speeches. I wish he had let us know him by his actions. By having stayed longer in the Senate, and not having voted "present" so many times in the brief time ha has been in office.

He is asking us to trust the most important job in the nation to an unknown, to just have faith in him. But his actions so far scare too many people who can't just trust what he says, because he says it. esp when he acts he seems a different man.

And no, I don't like McCain either. I feel awful about both of them

Well, he did vote against putting Roberts and Alito on the SC, and that is good enough for me.
 
Alright Hillaryites.....I am OUTTA here for 2 weeks. Going to WDW & Universal!:cool1:

In the meantime Keep strong here and peace.

I will leave you with a excerpt from my very popular (yet unfinished :rolleyes: ) Trip report. It explains my arrival at WDW and what it means to me.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1194934

As I got off the exit and onto Osceola Parkway, There it was, the infamous Walt Disney World Arch, and Mickey and Minnie are permanently planted there to greet you.

Now, I did not take the obligatory picture of this phenomenal sight, because my camera was packed deep down in my carry on, and I was driving. I like to just drive when I drive.

Although that Arch is all welcoming and all Disney, it is not exactly what I see upon entering the Mudda Country. As I get closer to the Arch, all the angst disappears; there are
no wars,
no hunger,
no thirst,
no pain,
no heartache,
no boundaries,
no reports due,
no time cards,
no meetings to attend,
no bills to pay.

I am now somehow magically transformed into a kid again. I get to feel and enjoy all the wonderment, the joy, the magic that all kids must have. Only this time around, I am a kid with a driver’s license and a major credit card!!! :goodvibes Everyone on Disney property has a name and a friend. We are the ‘Lost Boys of Neverland’ who must meet up with Pan and Tink, and find what we may!

This is what I see……….





emerald20city.jpg


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You're out of the woods, you're out of the dark, you're out of the night...
Step into the sun, step into the light!
Keep straight ahead for the most glor-ious place
On the face of the earth or the sky...
Hold onto your breath, hold onto your heart, hold onto your hope,
March up to the gate and bid it open!

See Ya Real Soon!::MickeyMo
 
Alright Hillaryites.....I am OUTTA here for 2 weeks. Going to WDW & Universal!:cool1:

In the meantime Keep strong here and peace.

I will leave you with a excerpt from my very popular (yet unfinished :rolleyes: ) Trip report. It explains my arrival at WDW and what it means to me.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1194934



See Ya Real Soon!::MickeyMo

That's what Disney means to me too :cloud9:

I read your trip report a few weeks ago, happily thinking that since it was from a long ago vacation it would be completed. Boy, was I wrong :guilty:

About your upcoming trip, I'm so jealous!

Have a WONDERFUL time, DISUNC! :goodvibes
 

Have a great time :cool1: :cool1: :cool1: it is so nice to be understood isn't it....here on the DIS everyone gets what you said! Feeling like a kid again when you walk through that gate. My friends who like Disney but dont seem to get it think I am silly...the old saying always that we get is "Disney again :confused3 ...and you own what a Disney Time share :confused3 :rotfl:

WE here get it and are envious that we are not there right know also...but our times are coming....for my family in 25 more days will be at DL for 7 days concierge at the GCH than we hop on the DCL to Mexico for 7 days after that....

Enjoy your time with your ...who I like to call your son...bet every moment will ROCK:thumbsup2 :thumbsup2 :thumbsup2
 
Have fun! we'll miss ya!!

BTW have I mentioned that it's only 40 DAYS TILL I LEAVE!!!!!
 
Bye DISUNC. :cool1: Have a BLAST! I'm jealous!



Have fun! we'll miss ya!!

BTW have I mentioned that it's only 40 DAYS TILL I LEAVE!!!!!

I'm at 176.:sad1:
My trip is never going to get here.
 
/
Have fun :thumbsup2

I haven't been back to Disney since Oct of 2006! :sad1:

I don't have a trip planned for this year and next year is totally up in the air. I might not be back until 2010 :scared1:
 
Have a nice 4th everyone....and drive safe. We are off to camping for 10 days :cool1: so I will not be here. That is why I have not come in here because I have been so busy getting the Motorhome ready and shopping for stuff...including School clothing because we will be gone all summer except for one week and than we get back 3 days before school starts.

Have a great 4th
 
Looks like everything we have been saying about Obama is turning out to be true, only more so.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/03/AR2008070302451.html

I particularly like the faith based initiatives thing. There goes all that church/state separation nonsense. Wasn't McCain supposed to Bush's 3rd term? Looks like Obama is angling for that distinction.


No surprise here. ;)

I've been saying even though our candidate isn't in the running anymore the general election will be interesting to watch, especially with the "real" Obama coming to light popcorn::
 
Looks like everything we have been saying about Obama is turning out to be true, only more so.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/03/AR2008070302451.html

I particularly like the faith based initiatives thing. There goes all that church/state separation nonsense. Wasn't McCain supposed to Bush's 3rd term? Looks like Obama is angling for that distinction.

I think we all (I mean the HS in this thread) expected this, but I'm shocked at how fast it happened! :scared1:
 
I think we all (I mean the HS in this thread) expected this, but I'm shocked at how fast it happened! :scared1:

Yeas. I thought he would wait until the convention at least, but I guess he felt there was no need to do that with the nomination firmly sewn up.
 
Hey all. I hope that everyone had a great 4th of July.

I think we all (I mean the HS in this thread) expected this, but I'm shocked at how fast it happened! :scared1:

Yeah, I think that most of us already knew this was the way it would be. I've been doing my homework on the man for a few months now and have previously stated that Obama will do whatever is in the best interest for him and not necessarily for the Democratic party.

I’m not completely surprised that he’s showing this side of himself this early in the game for two reasons:

1)His arrogance. The man is arrogant and has risen to the top of the Democratic Party for this election with such ease, not being held accountable for much of anything he’s said or done during the primaries, he doesn’t expect anything to stick to him during the general election. He expects to continue to get away with everything. I’ve heard people describe him as Teflon because he got away with everything during the primaries and nothing would stick to him. I have to laugh at a msm.com news headline today:

“Obama ‘puzzled’ by Iraq remarks furor”

Honestly, I think the headline should read:

“Obama ‘puzzled’ that there really are intelligent people who don't chant 'Yes We Can!' and realize he’s flip-flopping on his Iraq remarks and are furious.”

2)He’s had the DNC support; it looks like it goes all the way back to 2004. No other candidate had a chance this year. Maybe that’s why Edwards suddenly dropped out after promising he would stay in at least until Super Tuesday. Maybe they, they meaning Howard Dean, told him that he didn’t stand the chance after Obama did so well in Iowa and the plan was moving into action. Hillary just refused to listen to them, continued campaigning and they hated her for it. With the total support from the DNC, Obama’s not worried that Hillary will suddenly get the nomination at the convention. He’s in full general election mode now and has thrown most of the Democrats under the bus with his grandma, Rev Wright and everyone else already under there. I think it’s pretty darn cramped under there right about now.

Here’s another story, it covers some of the same points as the article punkin posted. It's a bit long but as this thread is moving pretty slow these days, I'm posting it all:

http://www.thecityedition.com/Pages/Archive/Summer08/BushThirdTerm.html
Why Obama Represents Bush's Third Term

July 3, 2008

John McCain's top economic policy adviser, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, recently said in a PBS interview that Sen. Barack Obama, if elected, would guarantee a Bush third term.

"It is Barack Obama's budget plan, not Senator McCain's, that resembles Bush's policies," Holtz-Eakin told Judy Woodruff.

Now isn't that the kind of vague, unsubstantiated criticism we've come to expect from the high-paid staff working on this year's presidential campaigns? Jeez, opposition research just doesn't merit the same attention to detail anymore - unless your opponent happens to be named Clinton. And with that beleaguered candidate sidelined for the moment, the job of sifting facts from all the jabber on the stump now rests with those unsung journalists of cyberspace. Far from chanting the mantra "Yes, we can" each morning before heading off to Starbucks, these folks live by the adage "Have Google, will travel." Of course, some of us rely on that other trusted rubric handed down through the ages: "If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, walks like a rat..." etc., etc.

But getting back to the notorious McCain slime machine, the bad news here - or good, depending on your preferred candidate - is that Holtz-Eakin is right. While his inane budget reference comes out of right field, there's plenty of other evidence to indicate Obama will do a far better Bush impersonation than probably even Bush himself.

And the proof, my friends, is in the hyperlinks:

1. Obama's presidential campaign is supported by investment banks tied to the market speculation of oil prices.

According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Obama's top 15 campaign contributors include the investment firms Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan, Morgan Stanley, and UBS Securities. In particular Goldman Sachs has been propping up the hope and change candidate for some years now, even when he was still a relative unknown with no grassroots network or any real resume to run on. Now the four banks have surfaced as players in the scheme to vault the cost of crude to over $140 a barrel. The scam involves massive purchases of oil futures on the London stock exchange to create a shortage of the commodity and thereby drive up prices. (It's similar to what Enron did in California when it ordered power plants offline to cause rolling blackouts, then charged the state inflated rates to buy electricity from other plants.) Goldman Sachs places first in Obama's record-breaking haul of donations this year, with $571,000 collected on his behalf so far.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

http://www.northplattebulletin.com/index.asp?show=news&action=readStory&storyID=14690&pageID=3 (ICE Futures scheme)

To make the Illinois senator's oil slick even stickier, in March his handlers began running an ad that claimed he didn't take money from lobbyists or the oil companies. Was it a pre-emptive strike in the face of rising gas prices? Hard to say. According to factcheck.org, the TV and radio spots failed woefully in the accuracy department, although CNN incessantly repeated a clip of the candidate himself making the claim in the lead-up to the Pennsylvania primary. Obama has received about a quarter million dollars from gas and oil industry executives, their employees and spouses this year. And those donations were rolling in even as his ads saturated the airwaves.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_oil_spill.html

The Annenberg Public Policy Center (which maintains the Factcheck site) also noted in its analysis that "two oil industry executives are bundling money for Obama – drumming up contributions from individuals and turning them over to the campaign. George Kaiser, the chairman of Oklahoma-based Kaiser-Francis Oil Co., ranks 68th on the Forbes list of world billionaires. He's listed on Obama's Web site as raising between $50,000 and $100,000 for the candidate. Robert Cavnar is president and CEO of Milagro Exploration LLC, an oil exploration and production company. He's named as a bundler in the same category as Kaiser."

This behind-the-scenes gravy train may explain why Obama's response to the gas crisis has been surprisingly lackadaisical. While Sen. Clinton was harassing the Bush Administration to order a D.O.J. inquiry into the market scam and close the Enron loophole, Obama was sliming both her and McCain for their proposal to make oil companies pay the gas tax this summer out of their windfall profits. His solution? Detroit should start building more fuel-efficient cars and Americans need to do a better job of conservation. Car and Driver takes issue with his hypocrisy on both scores, pointing out that the Clintons and John McCain drive hybrids, while the Obamas prefer a gas-guzzling Chrysler 300C. Writer Jared Gall bristled with derision, exclaiming "... every time he starts that V-8, he's choking dolphins and using the corpses to club baby seals."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ic_cars/what_would_barack_obama_drive_feature

As for his commitment to alternative energy, you might want to take another look at that donor list. Nuclear giant Exelon was his fourth biggest contributor in 2006 and this year made the top 15 again. It's money well spent, too, since the firm got its quid pro quo from Obama a couple years back when he took the teeth out of legislation requiring public disclosure of radiation leaks. In 2005, Obama voted for the Cheney energy bill, a measure that caused such heartburn for environmentalists, they sued the Veep over his secret meetings with coal, oil, and gas producers. Both McCain and Clinton opposed the Cheney pork barrel scam.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?

2. Obama's economic advisers come from the University of Chicago, where the Milton Friedman/Alan Greenspan model of free markets run amuck is paving the way for an age of neo-feudalism.

Regarding the candidate's position on this complicated science of supply and demand, progressive journalist Naomi Klein has published a new article in the June 30th issue of The Nation. Klein says Obama's choice of advisors suggests no real policy shift from the past eight years.
"Barack Obama waited just three days after Hillary Clinton pulled out of the race to declare, on CNBC, 'Look. I am a pro-growth, free-market guy. I love the market,'" the story opens. "Demonstrating that this is no mere spring fling, he has appointed 37-year-old Jason Furman to head his economic policy team. Furman is one of Wal-Mart's most prominent defenders..."
Klein continues: "Another of Obama's Chicago fans is 39-year-old billionaire Kenneth Griffin, CEO of the hedge fund Citadel Investment Group. Griffin, who gave the maximum allowable donation to Obama, is something of a poster boy for an unbalanced economy. He got married at Versailles and had the after-party at Marie Antoinette's vacation spot (Cirque du Soleil performed)--and he is one of the staunchest opponents of closing the hedge-fund tax loophole. While Obama talks about toughening trade rules with China, Griffin has been bending the few barriers that do exist. Despite sanctions prohibiting the sale of police equipment to China, Citadel has been pouring money into controversial China-based security companies that are putting the local population under unprecedented levels of surveillance."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080630/klein

Those of us following the election are already familiar with Obama's former chief economic adviser Austan Goolsbee. He's another University of Chicago boy. Klein, who is the author of The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, explained that Milton Friedman first set out some decades ago to reverse Roosevelt's New Deal from his perch at the the university's school of economics.When he died in 2006, Goolsbee penned one of the few appreciations that appeared in the New York Times. And shortly before the Ohio/Texas primaries, a memo from a Canadian official surfaced that revealed that Goolsbee assured diplomats at that country's Chicago consulate that Obama's tough talk on the campaign stump about NAFTA was “more reflective of political maneuvering than policy.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/us/politics/04nafta.html?

Of course, Obama delivered his historic address on the U.S. economy March 27th. Introduced by billionaire media mogul and mayor of New York Michael Bloomberg, according to USA Today, the superbly crafted opus was "followed by a $1,000-a-plate fundraiser at the offices of Credit Suisse, which has been entangled with the sub prime loan issue." Meanwhile, rival Hillary Clinton, that shill of the party establishment, attended a series of roundtable discussions featuring teary-eyed homeowners telling their tales of predatory lending horrors to the traveling press corps.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-03-27-democrats_N.ht

Not every borrower was scammed by the banks, however. Obama got a cut rate on his own home mortgage from Northern Trust that saved him approximate $300 per month. And with the nation grapping with the worst foreclosure crisis since the Depression, our presumptive nominee tapped Jim Johnson, the former CEO of Fannie Mae, to head his VP search team. Fannie Mae enjoyed a close fiduciary relationship with Countrywide Financial Corp., one of the top lenders implicated in the sub prime meltdown. The Los Angeles Times reported that Johnson obtained reduced rates from Countrywide on a mortgage of his own. "He also has been criticized for compensation and other perks he received as an official of mortgage giant Fannie Mae and for compensation decisions made while he was a board member of United HealthCare, one of the nation's biggest medical insurers." The VP vetter eventually relinquished his heavy assignment with the Obamas campaign.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-johnson12-2008jun12,0,1290201.story

3. Obama has interviewed two Republicans to serve as secretary of defense and secretary of state in his administration, if elected.
According to a March 2nd article in the London Times, Obama interviewed G.O.P. Senators Chuck Hagel of Nebraska and Richard Lugar of Indiana for posts in a potential cabinet. Hagel said back in 2004 that he was interested in the presidency and has been distancing himself from the Bush Administration ever since. A former lobbyist for Firestone, he served in the Reagan Administration before moving to Nebraska in 1992 to run an investment banking firm. He's also the former CEO of Election Systems & Software, one of the country's top manufacturers of electronic voting machines. Incredibly, Hagel openly criticized John McCain and expressed support for Obama during the primaries, yet remains in good standing with his party.

Lugar, who sponsored the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (see article on ICE Futures above), is being considered as a possible secretary of state. Since Obama first arrived in Washington in 2005, Lugar has gone out of his way to maintain good relations him, even though the two men have little (if anything) in common. That year, the former chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee brought Obama with him on a trip to inspect nuclear facilities in Russia. He even added Obama's name to his non-proliferation measure that the President signed into law in January 2007. It's referred to as "The Lugar-Obama bill". Once considered a reliable vote for the Bush Administration, Lugar appeared to break ranks with his boss over the Iraq War last year when he gave a speech criticizing its conduct. He later tempered his remarks, insisting that timetables and benchmarks don't belong in congressional legislation. (None are included in the latest war-funding bill.)
Of the two prospective cabinet picks, the London Times story added, "Larry Korb, a defence official under President Ronald Reagan who is backing Obama, said: 'By putting a Republican in the Pentagon and the State Department you send a signal to Congress and the American people that issues of national security are above politics."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3466823.ece

Recently, Hagel announced that he would be interested in the VP spot on Obama's ticket. The candidate has since remarked that Robert Gates would make a great defense secretary. Was this supposed to be a joke?

Unfortunately, it's difficult to tell with Obama. As his acolytes in the media like to remind us, he's still "introducing himself to Americans." Of course, Gates we already know something about. Before being tapped by the current President Bush, he served as the top staffer to CIA Director William Casey during the Reagan/Bush Administration. After the Iran-Contra scandal was exposed, Casey died of a brain tumor before Congress could question him, and the Senate subsequently rejected Gates as his successor. Two decades later, he was confirmed to replace Donald Rumsfeld as secretary of defense, and now stands accused of turning a blind eye to Iraq corruption scandals involving Halliburton/KBR and the security firm Blackwater.

4. Obama has been linked to war profiteering.
Speaking of Iraq, Obama may not be the unwavering anti-war candidate that he has led us to believe. For one thing, there's no independent corroboration that the speech he claimed to have given in 2002 ever actually took place. Moreover, his long-time benefactor Tony Rezko (who raised $4 million for President Bush's re-election campaign) is close friends with two Iraqi exiles tied to U.S. foreign policy. The website Rezko Watch has tracked the rap sheets for these three chums through stories in the New York Times and Chicago dailies. Aiham Alsammarae was appointed as Iraq's Minister of Electricity by the Coalition Provisional Authority in 2003 and soon afterward signed a contract with Rezko to build a power plant in Iraqi Kurdistan. Like many other exiles appointed by L. Paul bremmer, Alsammarae is now accused of stealing $650 million reconstruction aid. Thanks to Blackwater's help, he made an Al Capone-style escape from a Baghdad jail in late 2006. Lucky thing,too, because the former minister and current fugitive was back in Ilinois last winter to donate $2,300 online to the senator's presidential campaign.
Which begs the question: where's the rest of the $649,997,700, Aiham? (Anyone with leads, please contact Greta Van Susteren.)

http://rezkowatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/rezko-and-alsamarrae-corruption-in-iraq.html

5. Obama has promised to expand Bush's controversial "faith-based initiative", which funnels millions of tax dollars each year to religious organizations, many which oppose some civil rights.

In an attempt to woo right-wing evangelical voters away from McCain, Barack Obama has recently called for an expansion of the President's program to transfer funding for social programs away from traditional nonprofits and into the coffers of churches instead. Speaking at a community ministry in Zanesville, Ohio, the candidate promised that the faith-based initiative would be "central" to his administration. A $500 million package involving a public/private "partnership" is already on the drawing board, no doubt keeping hope alive for convicted housing project developer Rezko, who specializes in such collaborations.

"Every house of worship that wants to run an effective program and that's willing to abide by our constitution - from the largest mega-churches and synagogues to the smallest store-front churches and mosques - can and will have access to the information and support they need to run that program," Obama said. Since many church programs, including the Salvation Army, have long-running antipathy towards lesbians and gays, and are also biased against women's rights because of other religious tenets, civil liberties groups like the ACLU have frowned on the initiative ever since it was first introduced. The Bush Administration, however, took extra measures to implement it, establishing special oversight offices at many federal agencies to make sure the religious groups got their fair share of contracts.

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/07/obama_backs_faithbased_service.html

John DiIulio, who served as the first director of Bush’s office on faith based initiatives, told the New York Times, “Senator Barack Obama has offered a principled, prudent, and problem-solving vision for the future of community-serving partnerships involving religious nonprofit organizations.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/politics/02campaigncnd.html?

Johanna Neuman, a Los Angeles Times blogger, even compared the language Obama used in his speech with that of the President speaking on previous occasions.

Obama: "The challenges we face today ... are simply too big for government to solve alone."
Bush: "Bureaucracies can put money in people's hands, but they cannot put hope in a person's heart."
Obama: "Change comes not from the top down but from the bottom up, and few are closer to the people than our churches, synagogues, temples and mosques."
Bush: "Groups like yours have harnessed a power that no government bureaucracy can match."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/07/bushs-faith-bas.html

Yes, but it's how that power is unleashed that tends to make people worry.

6. Obama supports warrantless surveillance, including the FISA bill.
Salon correspondent Glenn Greenwald nailed Obama's flip-flop on FISA and telecom immunity down to the brass tacks when he wrote on June 21st, "What had been a vicious assault on our Constitution, and corrupt complicity to conceal Bush lawbreaking, magically and instantaneously transformed into a perfectly understandable position, even a shrewd and commendable decision, that we should not only accept, but be grateful for as undertaken by Obama for our Own Good."

Setting aside an earlier commitment to filibuster the bill, Obama said last week that he supports the (alleged) compromise that strips many safeguards from the 1978 FISA Act. The new measure legalizes the eavesdropping activities conducted by the Administration beginning in 2001, even though they violate the Fourth Amendment right to privacy. Obama's spokespeople have erroneously stated that the original legislation was about to expire, forcing the candidate's hand.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/21/obama/

Greenwald isn't alone in feeling a little betrayed. Members of the group MoveOn.org have joined civil liberties proponents in raising money to lobby Obama and other Democrats to reverse their positions before the bill comes to a vote in the full senate on July 8th. (Too bad they can't get a refund on their previous donations.)

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/06/telecom-amnes-1.html

To be sure, the timing of the FISA vote is puzzling. Republicans seem unphased about the prospect of a President Obama using the snooping powers to gather dirt on them. One would think they'd prefer to wait until after November before painting a bull's eye on their own foreheads. Even a McCain presidency may prove no picnic for the hardcore neocons who have for years backed the Bush family crime spree and all the potential liability that goes with the territory. It makes you wonder if they know something about this election that the rest of us don't - like who's going to win and how Karl Rove is pulling it off. (See the "Bamboozling" article below for more on this.)

- Rosemary Regello editor@thecityedition.com
 
Another interesting article:

http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-candidate-images

Old guy vs change: McCain, Obama images take shape
By ALAN FRAM and TREVOR TOMPSON, Associated Press Writers
WASHINGTON (AP) — Now more than ever, it's the old guy against the agent of change.

Ask people to blurt out their first words about the two presidential candidates and one in five say "change" or "outsider" for Barack Obama and "old" for John McCain, according to an Associated Press-Yahoo! News poll released Monday. Those are not only the top responses for each man but the ones used most often since January, when fewer than one in 10 volunteered those descriptions.

Four months from Election Day, the survey underscores that people see quality and question marks in both contenders as they struggle to control their images. Lack of experience is the next most frequently offered view of Obama, 46, the Democrat who came to the Senate from Illinois less than four years ago; for McCain, 71, the Republican senator from Arizona and Vietnam prisoner of war, it's his military service.

"My husband and I are about the same age as McCain, and I don't think we'd be in a position to take this country in the direction it needs to go," said Rosemary Bates, 65, of Barre, Vt., an Obama supporter. "We've grown up in a different era. Something is not working and it needs to be changed."

Obama is seen as warmer and more empathetic, McCain stronger and tougher. When people are asked whether specific words and phrases apply to each man, the Democrat does 12 percentage points better for caring about "people like you" and is 11 points more likable. McCain has a 24-point edge as a military leader and is 9 points more decisive.

The Republican's military service "gives him credibility when it comes to running a war, and to running this country when it's at war," said Lydia Muri, 52, a McCain backer from San Diego. "If you haven't been in that situation, it takes away from your credibility."

The image differences even extend to the issues people most trust them to handle. McCain is seen as more capable on hard-edged problems like Iraq, terrorism and guns, while Obama is preferred on domestic matters like the economy, the environment and education.

The AP-Yahoo! News poll, conducted by Knowledge Networks, has surveyed about 2,000 people since November to gauge how individuals' views are changing during the presidential campaign. The repeated interviews show the candidates' images have evolved gradually since the fall, with both getting higher favorable and unfavorable marks as additional people form opinions.

Yet peer down to the person-by-person level and things are more tumultuous. Just four in 10 Obama supporters have the same opinion of him that they had in November, with slightly more of the remainder turning more negative. McCain's backers are divided about evenly among those with the same, better or worse views of him.

"In November he was a member of a crowd," said Sam Kemp, 50, of San Francisco, who sees Obama more positively now. "There's more information about his views now."

Racial differences are clear. While whites are evenly split over which candidate better understands the problems of ordinary people, they are a bit likelier to say McCain shares their values, and prefer him by 2-to-1 for keeping the country safe. Nine in 10 blacks say Obama would do just fine in each of those areas, with only small fractions saying so about McCain.

The survey suggests Obama faces a bigger problem than McCain from growing negative impressions.

Both are seen favorably by about half of those surveyed, and unfavorably by roughly four in 10. But Obama's image has deteriorated with two crucial groups: 52 percent of whites view him negatively, up 12 points from November. And 48 percent of independents have an unfavorable view of him, up from 31 percent last fall.

"He's a senator just a few years. He doesn't have quite enough experience, especially with foreign policy concerns and even with the economy," said Joel Taylor, 29, a Republican from Chillicothe, Ill., whose view of Obama has dimmed.

Obama has not capitalized on his party's far stronger popularity than the GOP, while McCain is exceeding his party's miserable public perception. Obama is viewed less positively than the Democratic Party by 5 percentage points, while McCain's favorable image is 9 points better than the Republican Party's.

That suggests a lost opportunity so far for Obama, and that McCain has had some success distinguishing himself from a GOP that only four in 10 think of positively.

The poll also shows Obama still has wounds to heal with those who backed Hillary Rodham Clinton, his Democratic rival in this year's bitter primary campaign. The number of Clinton supporters who find Obama likable and strong has not improved since November, and those considering him honest has actually dropped.

McCain has problems lurking, too. Six in 10 think he will follow the policies of the widely disliked President Bush, including more than half of whites, three in 10 Republicans and nearly six in 10 independents. That's a linkage Obama is sure to emphasize in hopes of fraying McCain's support.

"I think it's important we send the rest of the world a message that we're taking ourselves in a new direction away from the Bush administration," said Rachel Ferdaszewski, 26, an independent from Tacoma, Wash., who is leaning toward Obama.

In addition, respondents who are either undecided or say they could change their minds are as likely as everyone else to volunteer "old" when describing McCain _ not the attribute his campaign wants them focused on. So do one in seven independents, a significant number.

And people who in January did not provide a word for McCain now offer "old" far more often than anything else _ hinting that those paying little attention to the campaign six months ago are now struck by McCain's age.

The AP-Yahoo! News poll of 1,759 adults was conducted from June 13-23 and had an overall margin of sampling error of plus or minus 2.3 percentage points. Included were interviews with 844 Democrats and 637 Republicans, for whom the margins of sampling error were plus or minus 3.4 points and 3.9 points, respectively.

The poll was conducted over the Internet by Knowledge Networks, which initially contacted people using traditional telephone polling methods and followed with online interviews. People chosen for the study who had no Internet access were given it for free.
 
I always look forward to the articles you find.

The first one was a long one but worth the read and hit on a lot of key points about Obama
 
I like those articles too. I appreciate you posting them. They add another perspective to things.

I continue to think that the wrong people are running. I know that it doesn't matter now but what in the world happened? I don't think that Obama is a bad guy personally but I just don't know...
 
Hey all. I hope that everyone had a great 4th of July.



Yeah, I think that most of us already knew this was the way it would be. I've been doing my homework on the man for a few months now and have previously stated that Obama will do whatever is in the best interest for him and not necessarily for the Democratic party.

I’m not completely surprised that he’s showing this side of himself this early in the game for two reasons:

1)His arrogance. The man is arrogant and has risen to the top of the Democratic Party for this election with such ease, not being held accountable for much of anything he’s said or done during the primaries, he doesn’t expect anything to stick to him during the general election. He expects to continue to get away with everything. I’ve heard people describe him as Teflon because he got away with everything during the primaries and nothing would stick to him. I have to laugh at a msm.com news headline today:

“Obama ‘puzzled’ by Iraq remarks furor”

Honestly, I think the headline should read:

“Obama ‘puzzled’ that there really are intelligent people who don't chant 'Yes We Can!' and realize he’s flip-flopping on his Iraq remarks and are furious.”

2)He’s had the DNC support; it looks like it goes all the way back to 2004. No other candidate had a chance this year. Maybe that’s why Edwards suddenly dropped out after promising he would stay in at least until Super Tuesday. Maybe they, they meaning Howard Dean, told him that he didn’t stand the chance after Obama did so well in Iowa and the plan was moving into action. Hillary just refused to listen to them, continued campaigning and they hated her for it. With the total support from the DNC, Obama’s not worried that Hillary will suddenly get the nomination at the convention. He’s in full general election mode now and has thrown most of the Democrats under the bus with his grandma, Rev Wright and everyone else already under there. I think it’s pretty darn cramped under there right about now.
Here’s another story, it covers some of the same points as the article punkin posted. It's a bit long but as this thread is moving pretty slow these days, I'm posting it all:

http://www.thecityedition.com/Pages/Archive/Summer08/BushThirdTerm.html

Even more cramped now that BO threw Gen Clark in there. It's truly shameful that Obama didn't stand up to the falsehoods hurled at Clark by the media and the GOP. He not only stood by, he agreed with those who were tarnishing Clark's reputation by twisting around the meaning of his words! Where's his courage and leadership? Truly, truly disgusting.

Thank you for the articles, Dolce, keep bringing them in. It's sad, sad when such glaring contradictions are ignored by the madia an his base while they swoon at the news that he will give his acceptance speech at a stadium. "No one before has given his acceptance speech at a stadium. See, that proves he's different" :rolleyes:

What difference does it makes where he gives his acceptance speech? What good does it do to anything but his ego? Why such meaningless, unimportant piece of news gets so much coverage, is given an importance it doesn't have While actions and news which show what kind of character, integrity, and honesty he has are shoved aside without even a thought?

Why style wins over substance again, and again, and again?

Why???
 
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