Help with school note/advice

[Madame]

Um guys? Wasn't @Magpie born in the US and raised in Canada by an American mother? I love Americans & America, but if this is the case, then some of the comments are a little ironic.

 

[cabanafrau]

The PP asked why so many Canadian students come here and population is the answer? 'Cause California has the same population as Canada and has 4 universities ranked in the top 10 in the world (and all but one are public), yet Canada has none. Maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't population but an overall superior university system? Maybe not, maybe Canada is just superior in every way.

Some of the stats you cite as well are unreliable (US medical tourism in particular), and drawing broad conclusions from isolated, anecdotal sources is almost always unreliable.

Do I personally believe Canada may have a lower incidence of child neglect. I do. Canada's "skill set" is different than that of the US. And having that better skill, fewer neglected children, is a great, great thing. Perhaps it's not until adulthood that Canada's skill set begins to fail. Idk. But if we're going on stats (which is not wise if said stats are not investigated), then it is a stat that over 2x more Canadian citizens emmigrate to the US than the reverse (US citizens emmigrating to Canada.) And the stat only includes actual immigrants, not those living in another country on work or school visas. Further, the stat is based on raw numbers, not percentages - which makes the Canada to US immigration difference even larger since the US population is almost 10x greater.

My point here isn't in any way to knock Canada, I think it's a great country with a different, sometimes enviable, skill set. But your selected stats don't paint the whole picture.

And I noticed you didn't include this one citing the US having the 10th best quality of life thus far this year with Canada at 15, equally as unreliable as it may be.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

I think it depends on how "interesting" one finds the stats. Or in the alternative, one might simply "prefer their own perspective".

 

[roseaster]

OP, I was going to say since you are unaware of the school attendance policy, just call them out and hope for the best. Since the days of their absences aren't 3 consecutive calendar days maybe they won't notice them when seen on paper. Our district requires a doctor's note for absences of 3 days or longer.

As to why I choose to keep my children enrolled in such a "draconian" school district. Easy, the quality of their education. When we were researching where to buy a home, because our children's education was, and is, very important to us we looked at things like student to teacher ratios, diversity of curriculum, test scores, disciplinary problems, rates or graduation, rates of college acceptance. Never once did it occur to us to even care if the school supported us taking our children to amusement parks.

There are trade-offs. Our taxes are very high, and our kids won't be excused to go to an amusement park. We are comfortable with that because we are very happy with the quality of education that they are receiving.

 

[Magpie]

Um guys? Wasn't @Magpie born in the US and raised in Canada by an American mother? I love Americans & America, but if this is the case, then some of the comments are a little ironic.

Not ironic.

I'm a Canadian citizen, who grew up in Canada. My mother's citizenship is not really relevant to this discussion.

I also love many aspects of the US, and quite a few of my American family members. That doesn't mean I think some of the things I hear about - certain! - school systems are appalling.

I think there are aspect of my own country that are appalling, too. Such as the state of the Native reserves.

 

[Magpie]

The PP asked why so many Canadian students come here and population is the answer? 'Cause California has the same population as Canada and has 4 universities ranked in the top 10 in the world (and all but one are public), yet Canada has none. Maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't population but an overall superior university system? Maybe not, maybe Canada is just superior in every way.

Some of the stats you cite as well are unreliable (US medical tourism in particular), and drawing broad conclusions from isolated, anecdotal sources is almost always unreliable.

Do I personally believe Canada may have a lower incidence of child neglect. I do. Canada's "skill set" is different than that of the US. And having that better skill, fewer neglected children, is a great, great thing. Perhaps it's not until adulthood that Canada's skill set begins to fail. Idk. But if we're going on stats (which is not wise if said stats are not investigated), then it is a stat that over 2x more Canadian citizens emmigrate to the US than the reverse (US citizens emmigrating to Canada.) And the stat only includes actual immigrants, not those living in another country on work or school visas. Further, the stat is based on raw numbers, not percentages - which makes the Canada to US immigration difference even larger since the US population is almost 10x greater.

My point here isn't in any way to knock Canada, I think it's a great country with a different, sometimes enviable, skill set. But your selected stats don't paint the whole picture.

And I noticed you didn't include this one citing the US having the 10th best quality of life thus far this year with Canada at 15, equally as unreliable as it may be.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

You make some excellent points. IIRC, our quality of life ranking was negatively affected by the woeful state of our reserves. The US (from everything I've seen) has done far better by its native population in recent decades than we have.

There are some real, legit reasons why you would not want to move to Canada. Becoming a citizen is a long process, and if you emigrate as an adult you will never get a full pension when you retire (my mum got burned by that). Plus, much of it is very cold (a minor reason, but one I think of every winter). There isn't as much wealth, or opportunity for career advancement. As an academic, my mum earned her doctorate in Canada but ended up working all over the world (Pakistan, Romania, the US) and never managed to land a tenured position anywhere. She is back in Canada now, working as a sessional lecturer, but odds are good she would have done better - career-wise - if she'd stayed in the States. Well... except for the fact that she actually might not be alive today, if she'd stayed. There are things about Canada that make her very unhappy (and she's very open about them!), but she also says that the Canadian health care system saved her life (multiple times).

It's SO hard to guess where you'd be better off, but I do understand why more people are willing to take a chance on the US, than on Canada. I'm just awfully glad my mum decided to bring us here, when I was a kid.

 

[Colleen27]

You're very last minute with this so I wouldn't ask for make-up work in advance. We have to have notes in 10 days in advance to get work in advance at DS's public school, to give the teacher time to get things together (which they're encouraged but not obligated to do). I try to give the same notice to DDs' private schools, even though they're willing to get it together on shorter notice (MUCH smaller classes so the teachers can be a bit more accommodating). At this point, I'd just send in a simple note letting them know about the absences just so you don't have to worry about calling in each day and leave it at that.

I'm assuming you checked into the schools' basic attendance policies before booking the trip, so this is just a matter of logistics of make-up work and calling the kids in. Don't let it stress you out. We pull the kids out to travel almost every year - until last year DH's business limited his vacation time to the winter months (the kids are 12th, 10th, 3rd grade now) - and it has never been a big deal. It is just a matter of knowing your schools' policies and making sure the kids have the self-discipline to make up any missed work.

 

[Blueeyes101817]

In the district I teach in, we are not allowed to give the students work before they are absent. They are given time when they get back to make it up. For example, if they were out 4 days, they have 4 days to make it up. That is the policy for the district so it is what we have to follow.

 

[Aladora]

And I noticed you didn't include this one citing the US having the 10th best quality of life thus far this year with Canada at 15, equally as unreliable as it may be.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

Irrelevant to the OP but this stat is an interesting one...

US News puts Canada in the #1 spot with USA as #14 US News

Social Progress Imperative places Canada as #2 and the USA as #19. 2016 SPI

The Organization on Economic Cooperation and Development has Canada in the #3 spot and the USA in the #6 one. OECD

Oh and FTR about the original post: DS just started middle school this year and we pulled him out for 2 days the 3rd week of school. The school was absolutely fine with it and while we are planning a March break trip, we will be going during the break instead of taking him out a week early as we had planned.

 

[Colleen27]

I just don't understand how you're making such definitive pronouncements, or why you use such flimsy anecdotal evidence to indict the American educational experience? Makes it all the more curious so many Canadians(along with the rest of the world) are flocking to American colleges and universities in ever increasing numbers -- you think they would have realized by now our streets are too dangerous and they're risking their lives coming here.

Comparing K12 to college is apples to oranges. The US higher ed system is one of the best in the world, but our K12 system has major problems and lags behind much of the developed world (and, ironically, those draconian attendance policies are usually an attempt to improve our educational underperformance).

 

[jrmasm]

Because Canada is a much, much smaller country. We have 35 million people. You have 318 million people!

And correspondingly many more universities to choose from.

Yes, you're right, our medical insurance system IS definitely superior. When my teenage son cut the tip of his thumb off, my only out-of-pocket expense was the cab ride over to the Emergency room to get it sewn back on. Plus, prescription painkillers from the pharmacy (which was under 20 dollars, as I recall). We were in and out in less than an hour. It's amazing how fast you get seen when you're spurting blood everywhere! Also, he could bring his prescription painkillers to school in his lunchbox and take them when needed - no zero-tolerance drug policies here.

Which isn't to say I don't think we should have a prescription drug policy like the UK has, where almost all drugs are covered. Canada's medical insurance system is good, but it should definitely be even better!

And, the fact remains that if I need to see a specialist for some obscure disease, I'm much more likely to find that person in the States. (See above - population!) If I'm very lucky - my provincial health insurance will pay to send me to him (but that's not guaranteed, and the uncertainty around "orphan diseases" is another major issue here).

My daughter had more than $30k worth of work done on her knee. It cost me less than $100 and the date from injury to survey was less than one month. Most of the wait time was due to needing the swelling to go down.

All in the US.

Does everyone in the US experience what she did? No but I seriously doubt everyone in Canada has the same experience that you son did either.

 

[here757]

Just don't do the education based Disney letter.
It's non sense!
The truth is usually best .
Enjoy Disney

 

[Nancyg56]

Just don't do the education based Disney letter.
It's non sense!
The truth is usually best .
Enjoy Disney

LOL! I know! I love Disney and always see the value of family vacations, but I do think it is a stretch to say that the kids will be emerged in an educational opportunity.

 

[here757]

LOL! I know! I love Disney and always see the value of family vacations, but I do think it is a stretch to say that the kids will be emerged in an educational opportunity.

Lol and realistically... kids are to busy having fun. They are not sitting in the hotel doing algebra!
It's insulting to even try the letter!

 

[Nancyg56]

Lol and realistically... kids are to busy having fun. They are not sitting in the hotel doing algebra!
It's insulting to even try the letter!

Kady had reading assigned to her to complete over the trip, so she would read every night before bed. That was the extent of her formal education. It's funny though, I was taking an environmental studies class in college and she was learning many of the same principles in her science class. She and I did enjoy some of the opportunities in Epcot, such as in the Land. Now it would have been a stretch to say that it was in place of school, but we did find it fun to apply some of the lessons learned in class.

 

[Magpie]

LOL! I know! I love Disney and always see the value of family vacations, but I do think it is a stretch to say that the kids will be emerged in an educational opportunity.

Depends on the age. I don't think there's much value educationally for teens in a Disney visit, but when our kids were 7 and 9, we actually did find the visit to be a learning experience for them.

Mind you, it also depends a lot on how you tour the parks. We went all the way around the World Showcase, getting stamps in each country, talking to castmembers, and getting them to sign a greeting in their country's language on our paper masks (this was before they switched to Duffy cutouts).

We also spent a long time in Innoventions, doing activities such as "Fire Safety" and "Alternative Energy Sources" (a city planning game).

In Animal Kingdom, we stopped and chatted with every cast member we saw who was standing by a display or holding a critter in a box. We also got a book there and collected stamps.

We weren't doing this to deliberately try to be educational, though. It's actually how we approach visiting any place (museum, park, etc). It's just that Disney offers a bounty of elementary school level learning activities - IF you want to learn.

 

[Nancyg56]

Depends on the age. I don't think there's much value educationally for teens in a Disney visit, but when our kids were 7 and 9, we actually did find the visit to be a learning experience for them.

Mind you, it also depends a lot on how you tour the parks. We went all the way around the World Showcase, getting stamps in each country, talking to castmembers, and getting them to sign a greeting in their country's language on our paper masks (this was before they switched to Duffy cutouts).

We also spent a long time in Innoventions, doing activities such as "Fire Safety" and "Alternative Energy Sources" (a city planning game).

In Animal Kingdom, we stopped and chatted with every cast member we saw who was standing by a display or holding a critter in a box. We also got a book there and collected stamps.

We weren't doing this to deliberately try to be educational, though. It's actually how we approach visiting any place (museum, park, etc). It's just that Disney offers a bounty of elementary school level learning activities - IF you want to learn.

We do as well, but I think that it is a stretch to try to pass off a vacation that does include learning opportunities as a replacement for formal education. Any trip has room for a little bit of knowledge. You can sightsee and discuss history. You can check out the beach and see all kinds of science. But it is not the same lessons as are being taught in class. And I think that is the crux of the matter when it comes to educators buying the "education" aspect. I would never suggest that opportunities do not exist, but that a vacation is a vacation. If you take kids out during the school year, own that.

I don't think it is a bad thing, BTW. The days of all family members having time off together is long gone for many. My DH never was able to join us on vacations when the kids were young. HE was seasonal. You worked when you were called. Period. My DSIL was low man on the seniority list. He only got the weeks that no one else wanted, and you can bet Summer weeks that were not blacked out, school vacations, and long holiday weekends (he worked every Sunday, and did not have two days together for years) were the first ones chosen buy those ahead of him. SO they took Kady out, and off we went. But no more. Kady has block scheduling now, is in AG so she has a lot of extracurricular activities that occur and she is responsible for, and is on track for her further education. "Grades matter Nana" so thank goodness we all had the chance to vacation together when she was younger. Couple all of that with a very new, very tight attendance policy, and that "educational opportunity" will not fly.

 

[sk!mom]

OP, I was going to say since you are unaware of the school attendance policy, just call them out and hope for the best. Since the days of their absences aren't 3 consecutive calendar days maybe they won't notice them when seen on paper. Our district requires a doctor's note for absences of 3 days or longer.

As to why I choose to keep my children enrolled in such a "draconian" school district. Easy, the quality of their education. When we were researching where to buy a home, because our children's education was, and is, very important to us we looked at things like student to teacher ratios, diversity of curriculum, test scores, disciplinary problems, rates or graduation, rates of college acceptance. Never once did it occur to us to even care if the school supported us taking our children to amusement parks.

There are trade-offs. Our taxes are very high, and our kids won't be excused to go to an amusement park. We are comfortable with that because we are very happy with the quality of education that they are receiving.

Very well said.

We all know that many Dis kids don't need to go to school every day. In my real life as a parent and teacher, I see that absences of several days at a time have a negative impact on many students. In elementary, if parents are willing to take on the teaching of the missed material then it isn't a big deal but I cannot tell you the number of times that I will have assignments returned to me with, "Johny doesn't know how to do this." Right because you pulled him from ALL of the instruction. As a parent, I was willing to teach material so absences in elementary weren't a big deal for my kids but we still limited them.

By middle school and high school, my kids would have had a hard time enjoying a vacation due to the looming work, and the thought of returning to school behind. Not to mention that they were involved in so many activities that it would have been very difficult to find a time to travel during school.

To the OP, you're booked and going. No point in stressing now. Just let the school know and have a good time. It's apparently caused you enough stress though that it might not be worth it in the future.

 

[cabanafrau]

Comparing K12 to college is apples to oranges. The US higher ed system is one of the best in the world, but our K12 system has major problems and lags behind much of the developed world (and, ironically, those draconian attendance policies are usually an attempt to improve our educational underperformance).

I know that's a narrative that's been told with greater and greater frequency over the past 15 to 20 years, but more and more evidence is actually pointing to some curiosities in that assumption. For instance, why would it be necessary for the superiorly educated Chinese to rely on cheating on SAT/ACT or hiring out the writing of essays, etc? Why would cheating of foreign university students be necessary to the point of epidemic?

An attorney I work with has a sister who teaches at a high school in our metro area that runs a program where 20 or more Chinese students come here for a year to study at an American high school. They've built a dormitory and have teachers from China with them as well. They study much more than the hours they are in classes at the high school and are very restricted. I'm sure some of their classes are to stay on top of their home school's curriculum, however apparently it's come to light that their teachers also spend the time drilling them on rote memorization of the material in their American HS classes by using material saved from previous years. The American teachers started to notice strange patterns where either all Chinese students were getting perfect scores on all tests or quizzes or they all made the exact same mistake -- generally an unusual one as well. The students generally slept through their American classes and were never able to answer in class questions, despite being fluent in English.

My oldest daughter started learning Mandarin in MS and kept up with it through graduation. She's picked it up again in college and is quite fluent speaking and reading, trying to get the writing perfected, but it's an art and she doesn't really have the time to put in the proper focus. She's also pursing very advanced math and science courses and has had many experiences of being one of very few Americans in plenty of her courses. Because many of her classmates are from China and speak Mandarin she winds up understanding much of what is openly discussed around her regarding the cheating going on. She's realized how many of them in fact do not understand how to perform the complex mathematical calculations we've been led to believe they can do in their sleep. Anything unexpected or creative that requires thinking out of the box? Forget about it. Stop and think about how many American companies have been lured to China and then promptly walled out of their own companies with their proprietary information stolen. My husband is in grad school at U of M as well and has seen plenty of cheating, including a massive chaotic open uproar during a final exam that the professor simply ignored. Why? Well the influx of foreign students into our universities is bringing a lot of cash -- and forcing a great deal of our colleges to go on incredible building binges, especially housing.

When you really pull back and watch a lot of what's going on critically you start asking yourself how true it is that our educational system is lagging they way we've been ingrained to accept.

 

[Magpie]

We do as well, but I think that it is a stretch to try to pass off a vacation that does include learning opportunities as a replacement for formal education. Any trip has room for a little bit of knowledge. You can sightsee and discuss history. You can check out the beach and see all kinds of science. But it is not the same lessons as are being taught in class. And I think that is the crux of the matter when it comes to educators buying the "education" aspect. I would never suggest that opportunities do not exist, but that a vacation is a vacation. If you take kids out during the school year, own that.

I don't think it is a bad thing, BTW. The days of all family members having time off together is long gone for many. My DH never was able to join us on vacations when the kids were young. HE was seasonal. You worked when you were called. Period. My DSIL was low man on the seniority list. He only got the weeks that no one else wanted, and you can bet Summer weeks that were not blacked out, school vacations, and long holiday weekends (he worked every Sunday, and did not have two days together for years) were the first ones chosen buy those ahead of him. SO they took Kady out, and off we went. But no more. Kady has block scheduling now, is in AG so she has a lot of extracurricular activities that occur and she is responsible for, and is on track for her further education. "Grades matter Nana" so thank goodness we all had the chance to vacation together when she was younger. Couple all of that with a very new, very tight attendance policy, and that "educational opportunity" will not fly.

I agree SO much with this statement!

Every choice has consequences and benefits, and you have to weigh them. If you are part of a school system where the consequences for taking your kids out are dire... then you either accept that it is what it is, try to change the system as a whole, or find a different way to educate your kids. I have little patience with people who think exceptions ought to be made for them, and them alone.

For us, the costs were minor and easily adjusted for, both with regard to work and school. We were lucky!

With regards to the educational aspect... to be honest, I've never found elementary public school to be terribly educational for us. Most of my children's learning - the things they really need to know - occurred at home. This is where they learned to read, learned their sums, and got the foundation they needed to succeed in high school. My daughter's math skills actually slipped from where she was at the beginning of Grade 1, to when we pulled her out to homeschool for a couple years at the beginning of Grade 3. She'd actually forgotten a fair bit of what she knew! That was a real wake up call for me - making me realize that I couldn't rely on the school system to educate my kids. (Although they did teach her to play recorder very nicely during those first couple years.)

I do understand, though, that for other families, school is the only place their kids will learn anything academic. And also, high school was an entirely different kettle of fish (though we still managed family vacations during school term right up to Grade 10), and it was really exciting to see the kids surpass my abilities in the maths and sciences.

Happily, we haven't had to give up family vacations entirely yet, even with the kids in the second and third years of university. We've got a trip planned for their fall reading week, in just a few weeks!

 

[Magpie]

I know that's a narrative that's been told with greater and greater frequency over the past 15 to 20 years, but more and more evidence is actually pointing to some curiosities in that assumption. For instance, why would it be necessary for the superiorly educated Chinese to rely on cheating on SAT/ACT or hiring out the writing of essays, etc? Why would cheating of foreign university students be necessary to the point of epidemic?

An attorney I work with has a sister who teaches at a high school in our metro area that runs a program where 20 or more Chinese students come here for a year to study at an American high school. They've built a dormitory and have teachers from China with them as well. They study much more than the hours they are in classes at the high school and are very restricted. I'm sure some of their classes are to stay on top of their home school's curriculum, however apparently it's come to light that their teachers also spend the time drilling them on rote memorization of the material in their American HS classes by using material saved from previous years. The American teachers started to notice strange patterns where either all Chinese students were getting perfect scores on all tests or quizzes or they all made the exact same mistake -- generally an unusual one as well. The students generally slept through their American classes and were never able to answer in class questions, despite being fluent in English.

My oldest daughter started learning Mandarin in MS and kept up with it through graduation. She's picked it up again in college and is quite fluent speaking and reading, trying to get the writing perfected, but it's an art and she doesn't really have the time to put in the proper focus. She's also pursing very advanced math and science courses and has had many experiences of being one of very few Americans in plenty of her courses. Because many of her classmates are from China and speak Mandarin she winds up understanding much of what is openly discussed around her regarding the cheating going on. She's realized how many of them in fact do not understand how to perform the complex mathematical calculations we've been led to believe they can do in their sleep. Anything unexpected or creative that requires thinking out of the box? Forget about it. Stop and think about how many American companies have been lured to China and then promptly walled out of their own companies with their proprietary information stolen. My husband is in grad school at U of M as well and has seen plenty of cheating, including a massive chaotic open uproar during a final exam that the professor simply ignored. Why? Well the influx of foreign students into our universities is bringing a lot of cash -- and forcing a great deal of our colleges to go on incredible building binges, especially housing.

When you really pull back and watch a lot of what's going on critically you start asking yourself how true it is that our educational system is lagging they way we've been ingrained to accept.

My mum's a prof who has both taught Chinese exchange students, and worked abroad with students around the world (in places like Pakistan and Romania). A lot of the cheating is not due to a lack of ability, though the emphasis on rote memorization is definitely problematic.

The epidemic of cheating has much more to do with the way cheating is viewed in the student's home culture. She's had Chinese university students who haven't even heard of the concept of plagiarism and had never been taught how to cite their sources. They found the concept of intellectual property to be entirely foreign. Her Pakistani students were very inventive in their efforts to cheat, and when she mentioned this problem to her dean, he simply smiled fondly and said, "That's how you know which are the clever ones!"

Because, you know, only stupid people are honest. (And yes, this was an attitude expressed to her several times, while in that country. Sometimes directed at one particular ethnic group who took pride in being honest.)

Something that also skews those stats is the American insistence on compelling most students to be present and occupying a seat. In countries where it's easier to drop out of school, or even just be absent during testing, it's logical that you'd see a bump in the scores.

And finally, like many American institutions, you're going to see HUGE variability from one school to the next. You've got everything from schools where students and teachers are at daily risk of assault, where no learning happens except for some efforts to teach to the test (and occasionally teachers who give in to the temptation to give kids the answers during test taking - or even "correct" their work before sending it in to be scored!), to some of the best educational institutions in the world, where students are encouraged to develop their creativity in loving and supportive environments. Compare that to a country like Finland, where the school system is centralized and gov't controlled, ensuring every student - regardless of where they live or what school they attend - gets an identical education, without standardized testing or homework.

I think the world rankings over-simplify a complex topic and don't account for all variables. But I also think that there really are American students who are not getting an education, and American schools that are horror shows. Just as there are places in the US that do a brilliant job of educating their kids and preparing them for the world. These things are not mutually exclusive.

These are the kinds of schools that narrative refers to: