Grandparents Rights

[Nancyg56]

I do not believe grandparents' rights are a "given". I have heard of cases where grandparents have sued for visitation and won. As PPs have stated, in general, I think it's an uphill battle for the grandparents to do this.

I also think it can be a multi-faceted scenario. Most of the "horrified" responses on this thread are from posters who have terrible parents/parent-in-law.

But there is another side to the coin....what about the grandparent who has always had a loving relationship with their grandchild, been a good influence, helpful to the parents etc....in other words, not a problem... and because of divorce or death, suddenly that grandchild is kept away for no other reason than that the custodial parent "doesn't feel like" being involved with their former or late spouse's family or worse, feels like "punishing" their spouse and everyone related to him/her. That doesn't seem fair either, to the child or the grandparent.

ITA. In my DH family it is sad but children are held as pawns by two of his siblings. His mother was not such a great mother but she is a phenomenal grandmother. If she and his Dad when he was alive, did not give in to whatever demands his sister had they were not allowed to shee their grandson. The boy was left with tehm when it was convenient though, practically living there and totally supported by them. My Dh was the best role model that boy had. His other sister has followed in her footsteps. Take that to the next level where GP's are denied their grandchildren because they are no longer a "value" to the parents due to a death, divorce or just because....it is sad.

The children lose in these cases.

It doesn't seem fair, but life isn't fair. While I hope that I will never face this problem, I believe that the parents' rights should supersede perceived fairness when it comes to the rearing of their children. If I were a grandparent on the other side, I don't know how I would respond. Could I ever sue for visitation rights of another person's child? I just don't know...

I would. DH and I love my DGD more than life. If anything happened to my DD and DSIL decided to pull her away I would use every last penny to be able to see my DGD. I do not mean that I would want to undermine his parenting or his life, there is no good reason for that. I do believe that my DGD benefits from her relationship with us and her family, she has the right to know us. Ripping her away for the sole convenience of her father may benefit him but she is a person as well and her wants and needs count.

When my first husband passed away I was 25 with three children under 5. My IL's were worried sick that they would not get to see their grandchildren as soon as I met Buddy and theuy reacted pretty strongly. While I was really annoyed that they would behave that way I understood that they needed to have a relationship with their son's children. More importantly my children needed to have a relationship with them. It was uncomfortable for all of us at first, they were constantly reminded that their son was gone every time they saw the kids, they wre reminded that there was another man interacting with their grandchildren every time they were in the same room as Buddy. Buddy came from a family where kids were held away so he respected that these kids had a life before him. It would have been easier for me and for them to move on but it never would have been in the best interests of the children. Convenience should take a back seat to the right thing. I was still the parent and made sure that I was not undermined. If the children were in danger or were in a bad situation I would have gone down a different path.

My children are all adults now and my oldest has told me that he knew a lot of kids who had no relationship with their extended family and he has thanked me and his Meme. Bonus here is that several people in my DH family are closely with with my first husbands family. In a world where families are torn apart we have managed to create one in which there are three families who put kids first and all ended up gaining way more than just a tolerance of each other. They make up for his family who do not accept my children as his and those family members he is not allowed to see.

 

[NHdisneylover]

NO, they ABSOLUTELY CANNOT prevent her from moving, and in this case VISITATION (which again IS NOT custody) would have to be ammended, if visitation rights had been granted by law...if they had not, the grandparents would have to either a) file (then prove they have standing or a case or b) take what they could get ----


By the way, NH is a beautiful state (even for a Southern Boy), I spent a week there last August, and another week in June--weather was OUTSTANDING....of course, I wasn' there in winter..LOL

Thanks again I really appreciate all the explanations.

I have lived in many U.S. states. Lots of beautiful places (I grew up in Boulder, Colorado which many feel is about as good as it gets) and I have to say the Lakes Region in New Hampshire is the most lovely place I ever lived. Fantastic even in winter (mud season not so much) if you can get past the work of shoveling and the cold It was a hard place to leave (not that Heidelberg isn't a pretty darned fantastic place to call home either). Our house is still on the market (may never sell in this economy) and we NEED it to sell (can't find good renters for the mortgage payment) but I wish we could afford to just hang onto it so we could go back right there some day.

 

[C.Ann]

I guess from C. Ann's posts I was getting the impression that these grandparents who had successfully sued for rights still had their child (the parent) living but she did not actually say that. C. Ann--are all of the people who you know who won these cases surviving grandparents after a parent dies? Are, or divorces involved? (not counting the full custody case here as that would fall unde abuse I am sure). I am really curious.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner.. Got caught up in a book last night and wandered away.. LOL

To answer your question, 1 case involved the death of a parent; 2 involved a divorce and remarriage (which is where the "rub" came in - "new" life, "new" grandparents ) ; and of course the custody case was due to an unfit parent..

I think someone else here asked for dates, but I honestly can't remember.. Too much has gone on in my own life in recent years for me to remember dates of other peoples troubles.. Sorry.. However, as you can see from other posts here, I'm not the only one who is personally aware of this happening in NY state..

Hope that answers your questions..

 

[DisneyFed]

(which is where the "rub" came in - "new" life, "new" grandparents ) ; and of course the custody case was due to an unfit parent..

Too sad...the only ones who really lose in any of this are the kids, who ae completely innocent in the whole ordeal....

There's a reason we call court houses "the halls of misery"....

 

[NHdisneylover]

Sorry I didn't respond sooner.. Got caught up in a book last night and wandered away.. LOL

To answer your question, 1 case involved the death of a parent; 2 involved a divorce and remarriage (which is where the "rub" came in - "new" life, "new" grandparents ) ; and of course the custody case was due to an unfit parent..

I think someone else here asked for dates, but I honestly can't remember.. Too much has gone on in my own life in recent years for me to remember dates of other peoples troubles.. Sorry.. However, as you can see from other posts here, I'm not the only one who is personally aware of this happening in NY state..

Hope that answers your questions..

It does answer my question--thank for comming back and posting BTW I did not expect to see an answer until now (or later) I posted this morning by my time which is middle of the night for you I think I always have a lot of catching up to do when I get up as the boards tend to have a lot going on in the evening in the USA which is sleeping time here in Germany

I have to say I really do not know what I would od if we ever suddenly lost my husband--he is the love of my life, but having thought about it (oh I do not even like to do that) because of this thread, my instinct is that if I could not find a way to stay put (so as not to disrupt the kids' lives more than necessarry) I would probably pack the kids up and move in with my in laws for a while. I sure as heck would not be trying to stay away from them. I am very blessed to have gotten a great set of in laws when I married a great man

ETA-was the book last night one of the ones you were watching the mail box for?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...I would. DH and I love my DGD more than life. If anything happened to my DD and DSIL decided to pull her away I would use every last penny to be able to see my DGD. I do not mean that I would want to undermine his parenting or his life, there is no good reason for that. I do believe that my DGD benefits from her relationship with us and her family, she has the right to know us. Ripping her away for the sole convenience of her father may benefit him but she is a person as well and her wants and needs count...

If he moved across the country, would you move, too?

 

[C.Ann]

I always have a lot of catching up to do when I get up as the boards tend to have a lot going on in the evening in the USA which is sleeping time here in Germany


ETA-was the book last night one of the ones you were watching the mail box for?

Goes to show how well I read - I didn't even realize you were in Germany! LOL

Yes - all of the books finally came and I'm on the 4th of the 5-book series now.. Awesome books!!!!

 

[NHdisneylover]

Goes to show how well I read - I didn't even realize you were in Germany! LOL

Yes - all of the books finally came and I'm on the 4th of the 5-book series now.. Awesome books!!!!

Given that my usename indicates I live in New Hampshire (I did when I made it) I don't blame you at all--I hardly ever notice locations myself
I'm glad you got your books and are enjoying them all

 

[LuvOrlando]

Not all people should be allowed near kids regardless of their biological affiliation. I can't even imagine having to prove to a court all the horrors of why I think my family shouldn't be allowed to be near my kids. What a horrible burden that would be for me As it is, I did make it a point to write into my will the fact I do not want anyone of my bloodline to ever have any contact with my children for any reason what-so-ever, and I have made it a point to tell numerous friends this as witnesses if one's were ever necessary. I even made an allowance to invade the estate/trust for legal fees if such a thing ever came to pass and my DH or in-laws ever had to defend against such an action in case of my death. Now my lawyer did caution me that, where children are concerned, the courts are in no way obligated to award custody according to a parents design. However, he did feel that the courts would take the fact I felt so strongly about it that I actually put it into my will into strong consideration. I have also prepared personal records of events that are available to my in-laws in the event they ever need to defend my position. The reason why I did this is that a very long time ago my Mother threatened me with the fact that in NY the precedent for grandparent rights exists. However, I live in PA, not NY, and here it does not exist, thank heavens.... at least that's what my Attorney said the last time I asked.

If, on the other hand, I ever lost my DH I wouldn't dream of keeping my kids away from his parents. They are good decent people.

 

[mhsjax]

It doesn't seem fair, but life isn't fair. While I hope that I will never face this problem, I believe that the parents' rights should supersede perceived fairness when it comes to the rearing of their children. If I were a grandparent on the other side, I don't know how I would respond. Could I ever sue for visitation rights of another person's child? I just don't know...

What about the rights of the children(I mean, if there is no problem with the grandparents), but for a parents right to overstep the kid's rights, just because a parent may want to get back at an ex's family, just isn't right, I don't care what the parents rights are.
both sets of my kids grandparent have passed away, and I couldn't imagine not letting them see their grandparents. My dmil and I didn't see eye to eye on much, and I am not even sure that she really liked me, but one thing was very clear, and that was her absolute love and adoration of her grandkids, and even though we didn't se things the same, if she were alive and something would have happened between me and her son that caused divorce, I would have never stopped her from seeing the kids. to do so would be taking something wonderful away from the kids. I don't care what my rights as a parent are.

 

[sbell111]

What about the rights of the children(I mean, if there is no problem with the grandparents), but for a parents right to overstep the kid's rights, just because a parent may want to get back at an ex's family, just isn't right, I don't care what the parents rights are. ...

Children have no such rights. Parents have the authority to decide who their minor children get to associate with.

 

[Kies99]

Here's a link to Pennsylvania's laws regarding grandparents rights. It cites actual case law in Pennsylvania and Federal ruling of the United States Supreme Court.

http://www.pafamilylawyers.com/CM/FamilyLawPractice/FamilyLawPractice57.asp

Don't quote me on this ( ), but if I remember correctly the case cited in Pennsylvania had to do with a widowed mother wanting to move out of state and her in-laws suing to get custody of the child because they didn't want her to move??? (I know there was something big like that in the news a few years back).

 

[Chicago526]

I think what people have a hard time wraping their heads around is that there is a world of difference between what is right and what is legal.

It is right that loving, stable GP's be able to see their grandkids as much as can reasonably be expected given individual circumstances. However, in most cases it is simply not legal if the parent(s) do not wish to allow it. We all hope that people will make the right choice and allow stable GP's access to the grandkids, unfortunatly that doesn't always happen.

IMO the courts should stay out of it, even if the parent(s) have no real good reason to prevent visitations. The courts should not be allowed to second guess a fit parent. Neither my DF nor my MIL should have ANY say what so ever on if/when they can see my kids (if I had any). I consider myself pretty liberal on most issues, this is not one of them. Fit parents have (or should have, IMO) the absolute legal right to decide who is around their children, and that includes GP's.

And no, my opinion would not change if I had a problem with my own grandkids. While I'd be heartbroken over it, I'd respect the wishes of my child or son/daugher-in law. IMO I have no right to force visitation on a competant adult and otherwise fit parent.

 

[mhsjax]

Children have no such rights. Parents have the authority to decide who their minor children get to associate with.

I am not talking about literal rights, I do realize that those don't exist. HOwever, I do believe that it is morally wrong for a parent to keep a child away from a grandparent just to get back at a spouse, that is what I was talking about. And if a parent did that, then IMHO then that person doesn't deserve to be a parent, (assuming that the grandparents are "fit grandparents")

 

[mhsjax]

I think what people have a hard time wraping their heads around is that there is a world of difference between what is right and what is legal.

It is right that loving, stable GP's be able to see their grandkids as much as can reasonably be expected given individual circumstances. However, in most cases it is simply not legal if the parent(s) do not wish to allow it. We all hope that people will make the right choice and allow stable GP's access to the grandkids, unfortunatly that doesn't always happen.

IMO the courts should stay out of it, even if the parent(s) have no real good reason to prevent visitations. The courts should not be allowed to second guess a fit parent. Neither my DF nor my MIL should have ANY say what so ever on if/when they can see my kids (if I had any). I consider myself pretty liberal on most issues, this is not one of them. Fit parents have (or should have, IMO) the absolute legal right to decide who is around their children, and that includes GP's.

And no, my opinion would not change if I had a problem with my own grandkids. While I'd be heartbroken over it, I'd respect the wishes of my child or son/daugher-in law. IMO I have no right to force visitation on a competant adult and otherwise fit parent.

While I do agree with you on paper, I just can't believe that there are people out there who refuse to let the grandparents see their grandchildren. Again, I am talking about "fit" grandparents. We all have disagreements on how we raise out kids, but unless it is life threatening, then really just let it go. (and I am not speaking to you but in general) I think that any child who refuses visitation by grandparents , when there isn't anything wrong with the grandparents, Wasn't raised right. I my kids ever refused to let me see my future grandkids, then I would cut them off completely, nothing left to them after I passed, no help from me if they needed it, nadda, zip. zilch , nothing.

 

[Chicago526]

While I do agree with you on paper, I just can't believe that there are people out there who refuse to let the grandparents see their grandchildren. Again, I am talking about "fit" grandparents. We all have disagreements on how we raise out kids, but unless it is life threatening, then really just let it go. (and I am not speaking to you but in general) I think that any child who refuses visitation by grandparents , when there isn't anything wrong with the grandparents, Wasn't raised right. I my kids ever refused to let me see my future grandkids, then I would cut them off completely, nothing left to them after I passed, no help from me if they needed it, nadda, zip. zilch , nothing.

I know, I don't understand how people could do it either. God knows I disagree with my MIL on just about everything. But at heart she is a decent loving person and there is no reason for her not to see our grandkids (once we have them). And with my father I have no issues about at all, neither does DH. To prevent either of them from seeing their grandkids is just a totally foreign concept to me.

But, I still don't think that GP's have a legal right to force visitation, nor should they ever have it. We simply do not have the right to second guess fit parents. How do we decide what is a "good enough" reason to cease contact?

 

[mhsjax]

I know, I don't understand how people could do it either. God knows I disagree with my MIL on just about everything. But at heart she is a decent loving person and there is no reason for her not to see our grandkids (once we have them). And with my father I have no issues about at all, neither does DH. To prevent either of them from seeing their grandkids is just a totally foreign concept to me.

But, I still don't think that GP's have a legal right to force visitation, nor should they ever have it. We simply do not have the right to second guess fit parents. How do we decide what is a "good enough" reason to cease contact?

It is a horrible situation to find yourself in and hopefully we never will. And yes I agree, I don't think GP have a legal right. What a mess that could be.

 

[frndshpcptn]

While I do agree with you on paper, I just can't believe that there are people out there who refuse to let the grandparents see their grandchildren. Again, I am talking about "fit" grandparents. We all have disagreements on how we raise out kids, but unless it is life threatening, then really just let it go. (and I am not speaking to you but in general) I think that any child who refuses visitation by grandparents , when there isn't anything wrong with the grandparents, Wasn't raised right. I my kids ever refused to let me see my future grandkids, then I would cut them off completely, nothing left to them after I passed, no help from me if they needed it, nadda, zip. zilch , nothing.

This happened in my family. My Uncle (and I use that term loosely) was a drunk and a thief and a general loser in life. He stole a significant amount of money from the family and all sort of other low-life stuff.

He has a son, who the rest of the family (myself, my parents, my grandparents, etc) have not seen since 1989. He was one year old when his mother (who was married to my Uncle, then left him) cut off all contact with his father's family (us) and the boy (imho) really missed out as we were good people. His grandparents would have loved to see him grow up...

I don't blame her for leaving my bum Uncle, but it's sad that my cousin never knew his Autn, Uncle, grandparents, cousins, etc.

And (fyi), we had also cut off all contact with my Uncle at the same time - we haven't seen him in 20-something years either.

But at the end of the day, we NEVER thought about trying get legal visitation to the boy...

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Not in Florida--and I prefer it that way.

Creating me does not entitle visitation to my offspring.

All our parents do visit our children. But we retain the right to determine whether or not it continues based on parental behavior.

And I have years of evidence to back me up if at anypoint I need to pull the plug on certain individuals. And should those individuals decide to sue me, I will take it to the Supreme Court if I have to (yeah yeah yeah--this is hyperbole, but I will take the case as high as I need to!)--to retain MY inalienable rights to raise my child as I see fit.

It is not abuse to keep the grandparents away if a parent deems it necessary IMHO.

"Fit grandparent" is up to interpretation. There are many who love the said individuals that I may some day have to keep away. However--there have been moments where their behavior has been simply unacceptable. Their visits are purely on a case by case basis and if they disrespect that--then they get their privileges revoked, plain and simple.

It crosses a boundary to sue a child to see a child that you did not create and do not rear. My child is not their chance for a "do over".

It is wretched for grandparents to be so selfish as to try and "steal" custody b/c they don't like where a grandchild may move to as in the PA case. Incredibly selfish. I am grateful to not live in the state of Pennsylvania. (but I do see the mom regained custody of her child. I also see that the grandparents have a "right to sue". But we must remember that anyone can sue--the litmus for the grandparents winning is pretty tight and I'm glad that they are that tight.)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What about the rights of the children(I mean, if there is no problem with the grandparents), but for a parents right to overstep the kid's rights, just because a parent may want to get back at an ex's family, just isn't right, I don't care what the parents rights are.
both sets of my kids grandparent have passed away, and I couldn't imagine not letting them see their grandparents. My dmil and I didn't see eye to eye on much, and I am not even sure that she really liked me, but one thing was very clear, and that was her absolute love and adoration of her grandkids, and even though we didn't se things the same, if she were alive and something would have happened between me and her son that caused divorce, I would have never stopped her from seeing the kids. to do so would be taking something wonderful away from the kids. I don't care what my rights as a parent are.

The sperm and egg did not come from grandma and grandpa.

OR in case of adoption--

IF they are not listed on the adoption papers--the court doesn't recognize them as the adoptive parents.

While i would never dream of being spiteful for no reason--I will protect my children. They are NOT product of any grandparent's DNA. They are descendents and that is it.

Grandparents had the opportunity to rear their children and the children have left the nest and started families of their own.

LEGALLY--they should never be automatically entitled to any legal right to a child on blood relation (or adoptive relation) alone. The child simply is not theirs.

While there may be moral considerations and what is "just" in terms of keeping family ties, there should never be an automatic granting of 'grandparent rights' just b/c one possesses the title and the proper bloodline/adoptive line.

It undermines the rights of the parents to parent as they see fit and make the decisions to raise their children.

There are some families who are just not touchy feely. There are some loving grandparents who--are a bit pushy when it comes to their demands. I see this with my sister in law. Her mother is as sweet as pie--but I personally think she's a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs in her expectations on seeing her grandchild. It is b/c she misses her own daughter--but she's a bit pushy for my taste.

I could see one day that she would be a candidate to litigate (I rhymed HAH!)--and she would be smoking crack if she did as it wouldn't be necessary. But I could see her insisting that she has to be uber close to her grandchildren. She coddle the baby as though it were her own--but we know she doesn't actually think that.

Too much--relationship can be just as unhealthy. In fact--they are grateful for the distance (nearly 3 hour drive) as that affords the grandmother some proximity restraint.

I see perfectly "good" grandparents behave abnormally when it comes to the grandkids. And when they begin (playfully/part seriously) having "demands" or "expectations" (rights) to the child--to me that is just plain creepy.

They've had their kids--they've raised them. They're done. Plain and simple. To give them automatic legal rights to another set of kids that they in no way raise from moment of conception/foster parentage/adoption--until they are 17 and 354 days, is unconstitutional IMHO.

A child is unable to make educated opinions on what is in their best interest.

I'm sorry--they weren't there witnessing what I witnessed in my rearing to have enough knowledge on whether or not a relationship can be healthy with grandma or grandpa.