Grandparents Rights

[Wishing on a star]

I have a family member who was granted visitation rights with her grandson after her son died. His mom remarried quickly and decided that she no longer wanted anything to do with her former MIL. There was no falling out, she just didn't feel her son needed that part of his family anymore (I guess that was her way of dealing with the grief). The courts decided differently. After a couple of years, everything was ok and still is.

ETA: this was in NY and there was no lawsuit for custody, just visitation.

I suppose that NY didn't get the memo re: the Supreme Court decision that overturned such grandparent 'rights'....

I think that this is an issue that could definitely be revisited at the highest judicial levels.

I am sitting here being thankful that I live in a more conservative (for lack of a better word) state.

 

[Lisa_M]

I suppose that NY didn't get the memo re: the Supreme Court decision that overturned such grandparent 'rights'....

I think that this is an issue that could definitely be revisited at the highest judicial levels.

I am sitting here being thankful that I live in a more conservative (for lack of a better word) state.

This happened about 10-12 years ago and it wasn't appealed so I have no idea what a higher court would decide. I wasn't privvy to all the information.

 

[nrsldy]

I had to deal with this issue a few years ago. I the state I live in there is not really a thing as grandparents rights. What the laws says here is that as long as the grandparents have some kind of contact with the grandchild in a 90 day period of time you are OK. That does not mean that the child has to stay the night or leave the house with the grandparent. This could be a meeting at McDonalds or a supervised visit. If you feel it was not in the best interest of the child NO Visit. When I was reading the case law on this in my state I found very few cases where grandparents had won.
Each state is different.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

This thread currently has me worried for my kids if my DH died. His mom was and is an abusive person and I know she would try to sue for custody. How am I suppose to protect my kids from their grandmother and the court system? Maybe I should have my DH write a letter on how horrible his mother is and how he believes his kids should be raised. Now I have something else to do because of the government coming in and telling people how to raise their children.

Set up in your wills how you want your kids raised. Name a guardian who has accepted this responsibility and state WHY you want your kids raised by this person/persons. (Come right out and say DMIL was a selfish, abusive witch.)

I'm listed in a couple three wills as guardian (I don't have kids, but get along well with the kids in question) and in at least one will that I know of the reasons I'm to get the kids and that XYZ is NOT are spelled out fairly explicitly.

 

[bettyann29]

Grandparenting is not a right, it's a privilege.

I agree.. but that should hold true for parents too.. alot of people dont see it that way though..

 

[gottaluvPluto]

All you have to do is be a good mother...

The government is tellin gyou how to raise your kids???? I haven't gotten that memo yet.

Why would a grandmother get custody when there is a fit parent? That doesn't make sense.

I should have said visitation for my kids. Right now, she only visits every other year and she is never left alone with the kids. If something happened to my DH she would want visitation in the summer, Christmas and certain weekends.

Ummm, YES, the government telling a parent that this person or that person have rights and that I must present my child(ren) to them for x number of hours, on this and such a schedule IS, without ANY doubt, government/court interference, telling the parent 'how' I must go about my life, raising my kids. No question whatsoever.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I should have said visitation for my kids. Right now, she only visits every other year and she is never left alone with the kids. If something happened to my DH she would want visitation in the summer, Christmas and certain weekends...

If you are really worried about it, get your husband to sign an affidavit attesting to his abuse. Include some independent witness testimony, as well. Have him write this up in his will and include these documents. It would give you a huge leg up in court.

Let's just hope it is never necessary...

 

[Planogirl]

I think some of the nastiness directed at grandparents is kind of sad. I can understand it if there's an abusive situation but otherwise it makes no sense. I can guarantee that many people are willing to run to the grandparents for help if they need it. (Again not including wacky grandparents in this.)

By the way, I am not a grandparent and have a troubled mother so I have no reason to be biased.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I think some of the nastiness directed at grandparents is kind of sad...

It is sad, but I assume for good reason. I know of one grandmother who is outright evil. My friends, her daughter and SiL, moved across the country to keep her out of their children's lives.

That said, my children have amazing grandparents. They are a real blessing...

 

[Binnie]

I had a set of truly awesome grandparents, who would have walked over hot coals for me, and who frankly were the only people in my little kid world who loved me the best. I wish DD had that, but our parents just aren't that way.

Even still, for me, it's not nastiness because they're grandparents, it's because they're all weiners (all for very different reasons). I would never want to be forced to share my beautiful, wonderful, brilliant daughter with the likes of those people.

Ultimately, I believe that families aren't made with blood, they're made from choices that we make to take care of and love eachother. And some folks just can't or won't play along--and it hurts a lot when your parents (or your spouse's parents) are the problem, which I think is where the vitriol comes from (at least in my case!).

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Ultimately, I believe that families aren't made with blood, they're made from choices that we make to take care of and love each other...

Agreed - our "family" includes many people who share in our joys and sorrows that are not blood relatives, and it excludes some really "bad" people that are blood relatives...

 

[aprilgail2]

Grandparents have no guaranteed rights related to their grandchildren. In some states, they could be able to sue for visitation, but that would be an uphill battle with a steep slope.

A guy I worked with had a falling out with his daughter and her husband and didn't get to see his grandkids for awhile-he took her to court and won visitation every other Saturday for 4 hours-he has been seeing them every other weekend for years now. She tried to stop bringing them but he took her right back to court. Orginally it took many months to get the visitation granted but he persisted and won!

 

[Disney Doll]

I do not believe grandparents' rights are a "given". I have heard of cases where grandparents have sued for visitation and won. As PPs have stated, in general, I think it's an uphill battle for the grandparents to do this.

I also think it can be a multi-faceted scenario. Most of the "horrified" responses on this thread are from posters who have terrible parents/parent-in-law.

But there is another side to the coin....what about the grandparent who has always had a loving relationship with their grandchild, been a good influence, helpful to the parents etc....in other words, not a problem... and because of divorce or death, suddenly that grandchild is kept away for no other reason than that the custodial parent "doesn't feel like" being involved with their former or late spouse's family or worse, feels like "punishing" their spouse and everyone related to him/her. That doesn't seem fair either, to the child or the grandparent.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...But there is another side to the coin....what about the grandparent who has always had a loving relationship with their grandchild, been a good influence, helpful to the parents etc....in other words, not a problem... and because of divorce or death, suddenly that grandchild is kept away for no other reason than that the custodial parent "doesn't feel like" being involved with their former or late spouse's family or worse, feels like "punishing" their spouse and everyone related to him/her. That doesn't seem fair either, to the child or the grandparent.

It doesn't seem fair, but life isn't fair. While I hope that I will never face this problem, I believe that the parents' rights should supersede perceived fairness when it comes to the rearing of their children. If I were a grandparent on the other side, I don't know how I would respond. Could I ever sue for visitation rights of another person's child? I just don't know...

 

[DisneyFed]

This thread currently has me worried for my kids if my DH died. His mom was and is an abusive person and I know she would try to sue for custody. How am I suppose to protect my kids from their grandmother and the court system? Maybe I should have my DH write a letter on how horrible his mother is and how he believes his kids should be raised. Now I have something else to do because of the government coming in and telling people how to raise their children.

Custody is a TOTALLY different animal.....and it would not apply to that particular Supreme Court Ruling, except that you would have MORE, not LESS rights to defend your children during visitation proceedings, so fear not.

Guys and gals, THIS DOES NOT PERTAIN TO CUSTODY. This Supreme Court Ruling makes it NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE FOR GRANDPARENTS TO GAIN CUSTODY OF YOUR CHILDREN...The Supreme Ruled that Parents have NON NEGOTIABLE RIGHTS TO CUSTODY...CUSTODY!!!

Visitation (particulary because it is limited) is a whole new ball game......and even then, the court has ruled that parents have control over that...

BOTTOM LINE..........if grandparents are detrimental to the child, parents can have a say in visitation---but you will need to testify as to why/how they are detrimental..

I never said it was good, clear law, but law none the less....the Supreme Court does funky things sometimes (that eminent domain case in Connecticut was a horrific decision in my opinion)...

Ask me how I fell about Miranda...LOL

 

[NHdisneylover]

So how does court mandated rights of grandparents to visit work if a family moves I love my parents and realy love my in laws (who are comming to visit tomorrow) so this is not an issue I can imagine ever being a court battle for us--just wondering for others. We live in Germany. Came here 6 months ago for my husband's job (his plant in the US fell victim to the economy--he works for a German company and we were some of the lucky ones who could stil have a job at all. . .at corporate headquarters). If grandparents had court ordered visitation would we have been allowed to move so far from them? How about across the country, could we do that? DH's career has had us in 5 states and now anotehr country in 13 years. If we refused to move he would have been out of work at some point (probably still would be now in NH, economy is NOT doing well there) and his career would not be half as well off as it is. We also feel that our kids have gotten huge benefits out of experiencing these diverse places. Hearing some of these stories of successful lawsuits for grandparent visits (in circumstances which are not extrodianary--like death of a spouse) I wonder how long until it spills over into affecting things like a family's ability to move where they want/need, etc. Intersting stuff to think about.

 

[DisneyFed]

But there is another side to the coin....what about the grandparent who has always had a loving relationship with their grandchild, been a good influence, helpful to the parents etc....in other words, not a problem... and because of divorce or death, suddenly that grandchild is kept away for no other reason than that the custodial parent "doesn't feel like" being involved with their former or late spouse's family or worse, feels like "punishing" their spouse and everyone related to him/her. That doesn't seem fair either, to the child or the grandparent.

This is almost always addressed in state court, and the deceased spouse/partners granparents rights to visitation are generally upheld, Unless OTHER FACTORS (i.e. abuse--physical OR mental) apply....The Supreme Court decision does not affect state laws/practices that are in compliance with the ruling or the 14th Amendment...
I'm peripherally aware of cases in just about every State/Federal Circuit that granted grandparents visitation rights when a loving/meaningful relationship with said grandparents existed prior to the event (death/divorce)..

<<Jeez I sound like a practicing attorney sometimes>>

I'm sure there's a family law attorney in here somewhere???

 

[DisneyFed]

So how does court mandated rights of grandparents to visit work if a family moves I love my parents and realy love my in laws (who are comming to visit tomorrow) so this is not an issue I can imagine ever being a court battle for us--just wondering for others. We live in Germany. Came here 6 months ago for my husband's job (his plant in the US fell victim to the economy--he works for a German company and we were some of the lucky ones who could stil have a job at all. . .at corporate headquarters). If grandparents had court ordered visitation would we have been allowed to move so far from them? How about across the country, could we do that? DH's career has had us in 5 states and now anotehr country in 13 years. If we refused to move he would have been out of work at some point (probably still would be now in NH, economy is NOT doing well there) and his career would not be half as well off as it is. We also feel that our kids have gotten huge benefits out of experiencing these diverse places. Hearing some of these stories of successful lawsuits for grandparent visits (in circumstances which are not extrodianary--like death of a spouse) I wonder how long until it spills over into affecting things like a family's ability to move where they want/need, etc. Intersting stuff to think about.

It won't...When both parents are in control of the children, and moving around is a family choice (think military), grandparents have no standing in front of the court to go for visitation...Here's what I'm talking about:

<<<Grandparent: Your honor, my son and his wife moved across country because of his job and now I don't get to see my grandchildren as often as I used to. I want to sue for visitation.

Judge: On what grounds?

Grandparent: Because I don't get to see them like I used to due to their moving.

Judge: Dismissed, you cannot sue the parents for visitation rights in this case. The family has a right to live their lives as they see fit, and you cannot infringe upon that right.>>

I.e. Grandparents, CANNOT, SHALL NOT, WILL NOT, WILL NEVER be able to control what families do with their children (unless they report abuse or something like that, let's not go there...THAT I've been involved in)...which is EXACTLY what the Supreme Court said....The Supreme Court upheld this right for parents

In your case both you and husband agree that the relationship with the grandparents are important (as did my parents), and I'm sure you would "try to make it work" to get the kids to see them should something happen...there is no grounds for them to sue in that case.

You know, it's sad we've even gotten the law involved in this, but it does happen....

Edited to add:

One thing you have to remember is, in order to have a suit brought against you in court, the person bringing suit must have "Standing" in order to bring that suit. A grandparent who has NEVER had contact with a grand child who shows up out of the blue, demanding rights, most likely would not have Standing in order to bring a suit against a parent--a judge would have to rule on that based on the facts of the case. Neither would a grandparent who would try to sue in this scenario, where the parents moved and couldn't go back as much.

This applies to ANYONE seeking to bring suit against you.

Simply, Grandparents can't just arbitrarily sue for visitation--neither can anyone else....this is why Family Lawyers are paid quite well--because it is confusing..

We can go through a million different scenarios, but each has it's own set of facts and circumstances, and as a general rule, the courts lean heavily in favor of parents.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I.e. Grandparents, CANNOT, SHALL NOT, WILL NOT, WILL NEVER be able to control what families do with their children (unless they report abuse or something like that, let's not go there...THAT I've been involved in)...which is EXACTLY what the Supreme Court said....The Supreme Court upheld this right for parents

Thanks for all of your excellent explanations DisneyFed Okay, yes I can see that when both parents are stll married and living there is a non issue. I guess from C. Ann's posts I was getting the impression that these grandparents who had successfully sued for rights still had their child (the parent) living but she did not actually say that. C. Ann--are all of the people who you know who won these cases surviving grandparents after a parent dies? Are, or divorces involved? (not counting the full custody case here as that would fall unde abuse I am sure). I am really curious.
Anyway, even then where do courts tend to draw the line between a parent's rights to move, etc. vs. a grandparents rights to visit. For example, Dick and Jane are married and have two chidlren. They live in the town they grew up in and hte kids see both sets of grandparents pretty often. Dick passes away and Jane decides to sever all contact with DIck's family (probably not in the best interests of the children--but what she chooses). Dick's parents sue for Grandparental rights and win full day visits at least once a month. 2 years later Jane's company closes the local branch. She ahs choice of being laid off (no other work in her field is available locally) or transfering to a city on the other sie of the country. Could she be preventing from moving because the grandparents get to visit once a month? Or, is it up to the grandparents to get to where the kids are to make the visits happen?
This kind of stuff has to happen sometimes I am truly cusious about how the courts deal with it--having decided to take on cases and rule that grandparents have rights at all where do courts seem to draw the line?(again LOVE my kids' grandparents--I think the world of them, THIS is not an issue where I think most grandparents are bad in any way).

 

[DisneyFed]

Thanks for all of your excellent explanations DisneyFed Okay, yes I can see that when both parents are stll married and living there is a non issue. I guess from C. Ann's posts I was getting the impression that these grandparents who had successfully sued for rights still had their child (the parent) living but she did not actually say that. C. Ann--are all of the people who you know who won these cases surviving grandparents after a parent dies? Are, or divorces involved? (not counting the full custody case here as that would fall unde abuse I am sure). I am really curious.
Anyway, even then where do courts tend to draw the line between a parent's rights to move, etc. vs. a grandparents rights to visit. For example, Dick and Jane are married and have two chidlren. They live in the town they grew up in and hte kids see both sets of grandparents pretty often. Dick passes away and Jane decides to sever all contact with DIck's family (probably not in the best interests of the children--but what she chooses). Dick's parents sue for Grandparental rights and win full day visits at least once a month. 2 years later Jane's company closes the local branch. She ahs choice of being laid off (no other work in her field is available locally) or transfering to a city on the other sie of the country. Could she be preventing from moving because the grandparents get to visit once a month? Or, is it up to the grandparents to get to where the kids are to make the visits happen?
This kind of stuff has to happen sometimes I am truly cusious about how the courts deal with it--having decided to take on cases and rule that grandparents have rights at all where do courts seem to draw the line?(again LOVE my kids' grandparents--I think the world of them, THIS is not an issue where I think most grandparents are bad in any way).

NO, they ABSOLUTELY CANNOT prevent her from moving, and in this case VISITATION (which again IS NOT custody) would have to be ammended, if visitation rights had been granted by law...if they had not, the grandparents would have to either a) file (then prove they have standing or a case or b) take what they could get ----


By the way, NH is a beautiful state (even for a Southern Boy), I spent a week there last August, and another week in June--weather was OUTSTANDING....of course, I wasn' there in winter..LOL