GRAND OPENING - GRAND CLOSING (Florida)

[RamblingMad]

There is a difference between moving forward with precautions and not however. I haven’t heard anyone call for a lockdown on this thread...which is what it would take to eliminate COVID (such as what New Zealand did successfully). It is frustrating though that some people scream about how the financial fallout is devastating (Which it is) but also refuse to comply with any measure that allows businesses to open (such as mandatory masks and distancing). I am not talking about you specifically, but I have heard so many people want everything back to pre-COVID and refuse to have any perceived inconvenience.

Also tired of those that decide to be cautious painted as some fools who bought into the giant media conspiracy.

The great media conspiracy. Love it.

The serology tests by me are only coming in at around 3%. Wait until those get into the teens and the deaths shoot way up. It’s going to be interesting to watch.

It boils down to the math. How quickly does the number infected double?

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

The virus is supposed to get better. It's supposed to get better because we are learning more about the virus everyday. It's supposed to get better because they have learned more and more about transmission, susceptibility and treatment. It's supposed to get better because they have found that if you wear a mask, wash your hands and stay 6ft away from people, we can slow the spread of the virus.

It doesn't mean the virus is any less important than it was from day one. It means we are learning how to live with it. Isn't that what most of us want?

Just because the virus isn't affecting a large number of people in your town, doesn't mean it's not a pandemic. If you go about your business and travel to Florida or in or through any of the other 24 states where the virus is spreading quickly, then you could potentially pick up the virus, return home and start your own cluster, if you aren't taking the 3 steps to help prevent it.

Just because the virus isn't affecting a large number of people in your town, doesn't mean your town can go back to normal. The only way to ensure that would be possible is to have an extremely low number of cases, contact tracing to identify any contacts and then close your towns border so that no one got in or out. Is that what people want? No.

Until we can get the spread low enough and the absolute most people possible adhering to the safety guidelines to give our science time to find a vaccine or come to understand that this is seasonal, or that we can handle the numbers of people affected while society goes on as normal. At the present time, we are in the beginning stages of that.

There are a large number of people that would rather focus on the low numbers of deaths or focus on the fact that they don't know anyone that is affected or the fact the hospitals aren't currently overrun. They want to focus on the fact that there is conflicting information being presented while the medical community works through the learning curve of this virus.

But so many are missing the big picture. It's a virus that is living in our country and in virtually every country in the world. We have ways to live our lives with it, but some seem very reluctant to do it and would rather argue about why it's unnecessary.

Wear a mask, social distance and wash your hands. How hard is it?

24 states where is the virus is spreading quickly is an overstatement. There are 24 states with rising. That doesn't always equate to spreading quickly.

And also, you can believe both. I do. I think masks and social distance are necessary. I also think people are focusing on the wrong thing if all they're watching is total case count. You don't have to agree but just like people pretending there isn't a problem isn't helpful, neither are the people who are doing "the sky is falling" over all of this.

And I guess the big debate then comes from how do we know we're at the place where we know we can handle the number of people affected. Because I think that's the crossroads of where we're at now. Some people believe we can't. And some people believe we can. What constitutes being able to handle them? Hospital beds? ICU beds? Most areas are ok with those right now. If it's not those things, what are those markers?

I personally think waiting for a vaccine is naive. We aren't guaranteed one and even if we get one, the length of immunity and the number of people who will actually get it are going to be problematic. While I fully support masks and social distancing, neither are going to be a long term solution. So I hope the powers that be are working on a game plan that will address all of that.

 

[wombat_5606]

24 states where is the virus is spreading quickly is an overstatement. There are 24 states with rising. That doesn't always equate to spreading quickly.

And also, you can believe both. I do. I think masks and social distance are necessary. I also think people are focusing on the wrong thing if all they're watching is total case count. You don't have to agree but just like people pretending there isn't a problem isn't helpful, neither are the people who are doing "the sky is falling" over all of this.

And I guess the big debate then comes from how do we know we're at the place where we know we can handle the number of people affected. Because I think that's the crossroads of where we're at now. Some people believe we can't. And some people believe we can. What constitutes being able to handle them? Hospital beds? ICU beds? Most areas are ok with those right now. If it's not those things, what are those markers?

I personally think waiting for a vaccine is naive. We aren't guaranteed one and even if we get one, the length of immunity and the number of people who will actually get it are going to be problematic. While I fully support masks and social distancing, neither are going to be a long term solution. So I hope the powers that be are working on a game plan that will address all of that.

First of all, I'm using numbers based analytics to come up with my numbers. What are you using that supports your comment, that it is not spreading quickly in these 24 states?

https://rt.live/
At to the bolded statement. We will try to meet up a year or 2 later on this thread and discuss how this all turned out. Time will tell what happens.

We won't know the place in time where we can handle the number of people infected till we get there. That is why they have the Phased openings. You try a few businesses and services, check your data, and if it looks good, we move to the next and so on.

Here again, you drill down on one word of my post. VACCINE. I didn't say we are waiting on a vaccine. I said it was one of the options. Are there some people who are putting all their eggs in this basket, sure. It's not me, but sure, some misinformed people may be waiting for that, but it's not different than the opinion here that people want things to go back to 2019. That isn't going to happen either, at least in the near term.

I, for one, aren't focusing on totals either, but it is one concrete illustration of what is happening. Otherwise, if you don't know anyone that has been affected, you begin to think it's no big deal. If someone doesn't think 2 million people with a virus is important or that 122 thousand people have died from a virus that no one in the world has ever seen before, is important, than I feel sorry for people like that.

Are you that callous about the deaths of people with cancer, car accidents, plane crashes, suicides, etc? No, but people want us to think this is no big deal because this isn't that important, because these other people die too. What they forget when they make that argument, is that we have practices in place to actually lower the number of people that die from all of these diseases and conditions. What we are trying to do now is the exact same thing with Covid-19. Give the science some time to help and then we can all learn to live with it.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

First of all, I'm using numbers based analytics to come up with my numbers. What are you using that supports your comment, that it is not spreading quickly in these 24 states?

https://rt.live/
At to the bolded statement. We will try to meet up a year or 2 later on this thread and discuss how this all turned out. Time will tell what happens.

We won't know the place in time where we can handle the number of people infected till we get there. That is why they have the Phased openings. You try a few businesses and services, check your data, and if it looks good, we move to the next and so on.

Here again, you drill down on one word of my post. VACCINE. I didn't say we are waiting on a vaccine. I said it was one of the options. Are their some people who are putting all their eggs in this basket, sure. It's not me, but sure, some misinformed people may be waiting for that, but it's not different than the opinion here that people want things to go back to 2019. That isn't going to happen either, at least in the near term.

I, for one, aren't focusing on totals either, but it is one concrete illustration of what is happening. Otherwise, if you don't know anyone that has been affected, you begin to think it's no big deal. If someone doesn't think 2 million people with a virus is important or that 122 thousand people have died from a virus that no one in the world has ever seen before, is important, than I feel sorry for people like that.

Are you that callous about the deaths of people with cancer, car accidents, plane crashes, suicides, etc? No, but people want us to think this is no big deal because this isn't that important, because these other people die too. What they forget when they make that argument, is that we have practices in place to actually lower the number of people that die from all of these diseases and conditions. What we are trying to do now is the exact same thing with Covid-19. Give the science some time to help and then we can all learn to live with it.

My argument isn't with whether cases are rising in those states, but the terms "spikes', "quickly spreading". Somehow any rise is immediately called a spike. I will use my own state as an example. Two weeks ago it was said we were spiking, when in truth it's bunny hills that correlate to our reopenings. And were in fact always expected.

I agree with you, you reopen and see what happens before moving forward. Which MOST of the country is actually doing. So as I said in another comment, we have to stop grouping the 3-4 states having major problems in with the whole. Of course those states need to be addressed, but we really need to start looking at this geographically instead of nationally. We need to be aware of what is happening nationally especially with our abilities to travel, but it would be incorrect to say everybody doesn't care, when it's a handful of areas.

I didn't "drill down" on one word you said. You mentioned vaccines, so I addressed it. But there was more to my reply. And whether you are one or not, there are plenty of people, on these boards included, who are waiting for a vaccine. It does need to be included in the entire conversation. So for me, those who are waiting for a vaccine are just as naive as those who think we can reopen without any precautions, just on separate ends of the spectrum.

I personally don't think masks and social distancing are going to happen for 2 years, whether it's warranted or not. People just won't do it. This is not an argument about whether they should or not, it just not in the human nature to do this long term.

I am not callous about a single death, nor have I ever been. And that's really rude to say, honestly. Pointing the death rate is lower than some are stating isn't be callous. It doesn't mean the 250 who died yesterday mean less than the 1000 a day in April. It just means that on that metric, we are moving in the right direction. As a matter of fact, from day 1 I was a proponent of the lockdown. I have been a proponent of a safe and science based reopening. I have been a proponent of masks and social distance. However, there comes a time where we have to stop playing the "I wish we had done" game and really start focusing on what is. And at some point we will have to learn to live with the virus.

 

[wombat_5606]

My argument isn't with whether cases are rising in those states, but the terms "spikes', "quickly spreading".

So you're posts are all about semantics? Because someone feels those numbers are "spikes" or "quickly spreading", doesn't negate their impression.

Why does that bother you? The numbers are there, just like the link I posted. How someone interprets that is up to the person looking at it. I see it as alarming, if you don't, then fine. If I read somewhere that 3000 more people are infected with the virus than yesterday and someone calls that a spike I'm not hung up on that word. It's a lot more than yesterday, isn't that significant?

If 3000 30 year olds test positive tomorrow and testing hasn't increased significantly (which from my scientific data, it hasn't) then that is potentially another 3000 positives walking the city that don't even know they have the virus. Depending on where those people go, we have 3000 more. Contact tracing is abysmal, so none of these people are stopped from spreading the virus quickly enough.

You know what would slow it, absent contact tracing? The 3 safety measures.

So now the thought process is when someone uses the term "spike" or "quickly spreading", that's no big deal. "They" say go have a look at the hospitalizations. Well, in Florida, it's not looking so good. Those "spikes" and "quickly spreading" folks are realistic. ICU in Florida is inadequate. Their concern is founded. Now, once that argument is debunked, there's a group pointing out that the deaths are where you have to be concerned. Re-read what I said about that in my previous post.

I'm basing my reaction on the things I read and find important. When I read a post that has a different opinion than mine, I try to find somewhere that information is supported by a majority. If I don't then I quickly dismiss that position. If someone can point me in the direction of scientific data, I can be persuaded. Otherwise, you're just screaming into the wind.

In fact, I've encountered a poster(I'm NOT talking about you)on these boards who writes with absolute authority every time he posts. I read a lot of threads on these boards and he has claimed to have a different profession every time he posts. He's yet to link to any information that has any facts supporting his arguments. I'm not buying what he's selling.

Telling people to get over it, to quit calling things what they chose to call them, or to quit looking back, doesn't get us any further down the road, either. So what should we be talking about that is going to make such a huge difference?

 

[wombat_5606]

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/22/florida-politicians-coronavirus-surge-333611

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

So you're posts are all about semantics? Because someone feels those numbers are "spikes" or "quickly spreading", doesn't negate their impression.

Why does that bother you? The numbers are there, just like the link I posted. How someone interprets that is up to the person looking at it. I see it as alarming, if you don't, then fine. If I read somewhere that 3000 more people are infected with the virus than yesterday and someone calls that a spike I'm not hung up on that word. It's a lot more than yesterday, isn't that significant?

If 3000 30 year olds test positive tomorrow and testing hasn't increased significantly (which from my scientific data, it hasn't) then that is potentially another 3000 positives walking the city that don't even know they have the virus. Depending on where those people go, we have 3000 more. Contact tracing is abysmal, so none of these people are stopped from spreading the virus quickly enough.

You know what would slow it, absent contact tracing? The 3 safety measures.

So now the thought process is when someone uses the term "spike" or "quickly spreading", that's no big deal. "They" say go have a look at the hospitalizations. Well, in Florida, it's not looking so good. Those "spikes" and "quickly spreading" folks are realistic. ICU in Florida is inadequate. Their concern is founded. Now, once that argument is debunked, there's a group pointing out that the deaths are where you have to be concerned. Re-read what I said about that in my previous post.

I'm basing my reaction on the things I read and find important. When I read a post that has a different opinion than mine, I try to find somewhere that information is supported by a majority. If I don't then I quickly dismiss that position. If someone can point me in the direction of scientific data, I can be persuaded. Otherwise, you're just screaming into the wind.

In fact, I've encountered a poster(I'm NOT talking about you)on these boards who writes with absolute authority every time he posts. I read a lot of threads on these boards and he has claimed to have a different profession every time he posts. He's yet to link to any information that has any facts supporting his arguments. I'm not buying what he's selling.

Telling people to get over it, to quit calling things what they chose to call them, or to quit looking back, doesn't get us any further down the road, either. So what should we be talking about that is going to make such a huge difference?

I'll start with, I have never told anybody to get over it. I am a firm believer that people will move at their own comfort level and that isn't for me to judge. If somebody isn't ready to leave their house, that is up to them. I just don't want these same people sitting around waiting for a vaccine that may never come. But ultimately what they decide to do is up to them. I do have a problem with people who have thrown caution to the wind and would like to pretend there is no problem because they're obviously is. Even with a vaccine or therapeutics or enough hospital beds, we can't go back to 2019 normal.

Not all of my posts are about semantics, and maybe it was unfair to quote yours specifically, but I'm tired of any rise being called a spike. I'm tired of posters doing it and I'm tired of the media doing it. And I do think the words matter. We'll use the media for now - if they continue to use the word "spike" it's going to lose any credence. So when there are places that are actually spiking, people stop believing it. When they lump all 24 states with rising cases together, then the 3-5 who are actually in trouble get downplayed. And that can be very dangerous because then people don't take it seriously. So by all means, states with rising cases should be reported as such. But we all have to get better at differentiating between those who are having normal, expected rises and those who are spiking. It is all feeling very Chicken Little to me right now and I'm afraid we're going to end up ignoring the big problems that will certainly come up. (or currently are).

I think you and I actually agree and fall in the middle of responsibly opening with safety precautions in place (all the metrics of before with PPE, hospital, etc, along with observation periods between phases, masks, distance and hand washing).

I think I know the poster you're talking about and I agree with you there. I think they're are quite a few who deem themselves experts. On the flip side, we also have posters who are convinced nothing will ever open again and we'll be doomed to this life forever. Neither are helpful. I don't claim to have all the answers because I don't. I follow the guidelines given and the science to best of my ability. So while I refuse to believe this isn't a problem anymore, I also refuse to believe it's not getting any better. Or that it can't get worse. They're predicting waves for a reason.

 

[gwynne]

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...62/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&amp

 

[RamblingMad]

What I’ve learned from this after watching the data for months is that less people apparently die on Sundays for some magical reason.

 

[wvjules]

What I’ve learned from this after watching the data for months is that less people apparently die on Sundays for some magical reason.

I think that's the day with the most T&P?

 

[monsterkitty]

No one said its over, but most have realized that its not nearly as bad as it seemed in March. This could have been a whole lot worst and its not.

Tell that to those living in Yakima, WA. Their ICU beds are full and they've had to ship patients out to other hospitals.

 

[sam_gordon]

So now the thought process is when someone uses the term "spike" or "quickly spreading", that's no big deal. "They" say go have a look at the hospitalizations. Well, in Florida, it's not looking so good. Those "spikes" and "quickly spreading" folks are realistic. ICU in Florida is inadequate. Their concern is founded. Now, once that argument is debunked, there's a group pointing out that the deaths are where you have to be concerned. Re-read what I said about that in my previous post.

Part of the problem (on the Dis), is unless you keep track of who follows what numbers, you don't know whether they're referring to a true "spike", or an increase in testing. When people were talking last week about "the case count in Florida going up", I'll admit I jumped in and said "what are hospitalizations doing? What are ICU's doing?" ONLY looking at case counts (IMO) is a disservice. Did the case counts rise along with increased testing? Did the cases rise and testing stayed the same or decreased? Same w/hospitalizations.

Because of the lag time between symptom onset and deaths, I don't think tracking the death numbers really help (and I'm not saying they don't mean anything). Saying "our death count rose 5% today" actually reflects people who got the virus 3-4(?) weeks previously. Any step taken today isn't going to help the person who caught it yesterday.

Yes, the country is opening back up. *I* expected cases to rise as people have more interaction. It's not like the virus would just disappear. I do think people should wear masks whenever you are out in public, in addition to social distancing and washing hands. But until a business or government enforces it, what is one to do?

 

[wombat_5606]

So while I refuse to believe this isn't a problem anymore, I also refuse to believe it's not getting any better. Or that it can't get worse. They're predicting waves for a reason.

We have consensus on this quote.

I do think you're being a fair bit disingenuous to characterize anyone here thinking the virus will never get any better. The posts I read are illustrating the fact that we are opening possibly too quickly, because there are spikes and the virus is spreading rapidly in places. There is our rub because you believe that to be an overstatement.

The virus isn't spreading rapidly in all places, but if you don't do anything but watch TV news and they tell you there is a spike in Florida, then that is what you are going to run with. If you watch TV news, you're going to hear it's not big deal. Sadly, here we are with 2 opinions. I don't ever watch the news and I would advise people to start looking at the science. Sadly, most come to the DISboards and then we go down the rabbit hole, usually spreading the stuff they see on the TV news.

I believe that places are having spikes and the virus is spreading rapidly. You don't, ok. That's your opinion, but the scientific information I see, tells me that they support my opinion and I will gladly post links. It tells me that things aren't going like I like them to in places. It tells me I may want to change my behavior in some way, whether it's stay home or to take extra special precautions when I go out. Maybe I will postpone that night out at the bar or restaurant. To not take those things into consideration, just prolongs the effects of this virus.

Just to give you an example of our disconnect. You characterized my wording back in your post #462 as an overstatement. Then you made a statement that what I was saying wasn't right. Well....

I linked you to the Rt data. This is the very definition of Rt. BTW, the number of states has risen to 31 from 24, just since I made my 1st post!

These are up-to-date values for Rt, a key measure of how fast the virus is growing. It’s the average number of people who become infected by an infectious person. If Rt is above 1.0, the virus will spread quickly. When Rt is below 1.0, the virus will stop spreading.

Florida is somewhere between a 1.10-1.57. That's much worse than Massachusetts which is somewhere between .53-.77.

How someone reacts to that information is on them. That chart just presents the science. It tells me I'd rather spend my vacation in MA than FL. Am I over-reacting? That's up to me to decide.

I don't want you to get the impression I'm piling on you just because we are in this conversation. I'm just trying to illustrate to you my thought process in this and why I feel it's important to understand how this virus business works.

The Rt is just one tool though. All of these other numbers mean something too, like hospitalizations, contact tracing and positive test rate. If they are elevated, then I'm going to believe things don't look so good. I'm not over-reacting, I'm being realistic.

I would love for things to get back to normal as soon as they can. I haven't hugged my only granddaughter since March. There are people who think I'm being overly cautious and there are people who don't. It's ok either way, but if we don't all come together on understanding the virus and the way it works, it's going to be a long, long time before I can hug her.

I hope you stay safe and that our exposure to this virus and it's effects are over sooner than later.

 

[CarolAnn856]

Could say the same about you that refuse to see the other side and think the country should be closed up still. Hosptilas have room them have Ppe and can handle people coming in. Many have contingency plans they didn’t have in March. So moving forward is the right thing to do, if hospitals get to where they might not handle the surge then you see what needs to be done . It’s a fluid situation.

Last comment... I wonder why you think that I’m advocating for the country to be closed up? Could it be that putting false words in others’ mouths somehow helps you feel
like you can justify your position? I’m sending my kids off to college this fall - both will have in-person classes. I hope to return to my job in my school in some fashion, not just online. I’m enjoying being able to visit a restaurant and dine outside.

I ALSO happily wear a mask and practice social distancing. I will advocate that hot spots return to stay-at-home directives because that works and gets those places through the worst of this. I do this because I know those things will help keep things open and get us, eventually, to where we are fullly open with as minimal impact on others’ health as possible, because that is a huge priority for me, although YMMV, I guess.

 

[tippity]

Right, because initially, people stayed home and businesses closed. When that was done, we either continued to stay home or we wore masks and socially distanced when possible. Now, businesses and restaurants have reopened and people are bored with those preventive measures, so cases are skyrocketing again because nothing is being done to prevent spread.

A little critical thinking goes a long way.

I think there are other reasons for peoples' reluctance to wear masks: claustrophobia, and anxiety are 2 possibilities.

I agree that critical thinking goes a long way, but I think being compassionate and trying to understand what's behind behaviors is even better.

I understand the need for masks and distancing. But ever since this thing started, I have felt increasingly isolated from other people. I don't interact as much,because the masks make it harder to breathe. In the grand scheme of things this may sound trivial, but I think this may have a profound affect on societies worldwide.

 

[RamblingMad]

I think there are other reasons for peoples' reluctance to wear masks: claustrophobia, and anxiety are 2 possibilities.

I agree that critical thinking goes a long way, but I think being compassionate and trying to understand what's behind behaviors is even better.

I understand the need for masks and distancing. But ever since this thing started, I have felt increasingly isolated from other people. I don't interact as much,because the masks make it harder to breathe. In the grand scheme of things this may sound trivial, but I think this may have a profound affect on societies worldwide.

Try different kinds of masks. Some really suck.

 

[wombat_5606]

Part of the problem (on the Dis), is unless you keep track of who follows what numbers, you don't know whether they're referring to a true "spike", or an increase in testing. When people were talking last week about "the case count in Florida going up", I'll admit I jumped in and said "what are hospitalizations doing? What are ICU's doing?" ONLY looking at case counts (IMO) is a disservice. Did the case counts rise along with increased testing? Did the cases rise and testing stayed the same or decreased? Same w/hospitalizations.

Because of the lag time between symptom onset and deaths, I don't think tracking the death numbers really help (and I'm not saying they don't mean anything). Saying "our death count rose 5% today" actually reflects people who got the virus 3-4(?) weeks previously. Any step taken today isn't going to help the person who caught it yesterday.

Yes, the country is opening back up. *I* expected cases to rise as people have more interaction. It's not like the virus would just disappear. I do think people should wear masks whenever you are out in public, in addition to social distancing and washing hands. But until a business or government enforces it, what is one to do?

It would be nice if our citizens would understand without that, wouldn't it?

As for as the news coverage goes, here's the way I think of it. As long as its factual, I don't have any problem with it. If it's true, let me see it.

If the paper or the news call it a spike, go look at how they came to that conclusion. Even if it doesn't take the testing or the hospitalizations into account but the 3000 is true, I don't have any problem with that news. It is still a fact. What I do with that fact is up to me. What I see happening on the DISboards quite a bit is arguing the facts or trying to change the facts. Just because the reporter didn't take into account the testing (which I saw more of early in this disaster and little of these days), still doesn't make the 3000 less important or less of a fact. The fact is that no matter how they find the 3000, those people were still out there, infecting other people.

I'm not hung up on the lag either. It would be great if we had a instantaneous test, but we don't. I see the 3000 new people in a day as an issue that needs to be dealt with. Perhaps we should have fewer things open. Perhaps masks should be mandatory. Perhaps the medical professionals will look at their data and decide what this means and take whatever steps are necessary to get the number under control.

Even when testing increases the number of positive cases, that's not cause to celebrate. If the number of people testing positive is in a area where the cases are spreading quickly, then we aren't acting sufficiently to slow it down. The virus has most of the control. We are not prepared unless we keep things slow and measured, practicing the safety measures we have identified.

Herd immunity is a good thing, but it is a slow process. You can't just open the country, let anyone and everyone get sick and count the deaths as the cost of doing business. It is a phased process and it's what the US is trying to do now.

 

[SaintsManiac]

Louisiana will remain in phase 2 while probably 70% of its citizens refuse to wear masks and think this is a hoax.

It must feel like a slap in the face to the essential workers out there who wear them to protect customers.

 

[e_yerger]

I think there are other reasons for peoples' reluctance to wear masks: claustrophobia, and anxiety are 2 possibilities.

I agree that critical thinking goes a long way, but I think being compassionate and trying to understand what's behind behaviors is even better.

I understand the need for masks and distancing. But ever since this thing started, I have felt increasingly isolated from other people. I don't interact as much,because the masks make it harder to breathe. In the grand scheme of things this may sound trivial, but I think this may have a profound affect on societies worldwide.

Yeah - my depression and anxiety are in full effect right now, which normally go away in the summer months (seasonal affective disorder).

But honestly, I know that I'd rather deal with my own issues than possibly transmit the disease to someone else. I think Americans as a society have issues with being uncomfortable. So there are a lot of people who were forced into mental spaces and sociological spaces that they've never been in before. And instead of learning to adapt to it and move forward, they just said "f**k it" and have complete disregard to the rules.

I know that people who have claustrophobia and anxiety also aren't going into the stores without a mask because of that. They're probably well aware that because they can't wear a mask then they can't go places. People that are saying they can't wear masks because of anxiety, and then go places, I don't trust. I believe they're just using it as an excuse to bend the rules so they don't have to be uncomfortable. Thinking about to how people used to abuse the disability pass in WDW. They lie to get things easier.

 

[Searc]

It would be nice if our citizens would understand without that, wouldn't it?

As for as the news coverage goes, here's the way I think of it. As long as its factual, I don't have any problem with it. If it's true, let me see it.

If the paper or the news call it a spike, go look at how they came to that conclusion. Even if it doesn't take the testing or the hospitalizations into account but the 3000 is true, I don't have any problem with that news. It is still a fact. What I do with that fact is up to me. What I see happening on the DISboards quite a bit is arguing the facts or trying to change the facts. Just because the reporter didn't take into account the testing (which I saw more of early in this disaster and little of these days), still doesn't make the 3000 less important or less of a fact. The fact is that no matter how they find the 3000, those people were still out there, infecting other people.

I'm not hung up on the lag either. It would be great if we had a instantaneous test, but we don't. I see the 3000 new people in a day as an issue that needs to be dealt with. Perhaps we should have fewer things open. Perhaps masks should be mandatory. Perhaps the medical professionals will look at their data and decide what this means and take whatever steps are necessary to get the number under control.

Even when testing increases the number of positive cases, that's not cause to celebrate. If the number of people testing positive is in a area where the cases are spreading quickly, then we aren't acting sufficiently to slow it down. The virus has most of the control. We are not prepared unless we keep things slow and measured, practicing the safety measures we have identified.

Herd immunity is a good thing, but it is a slow process. You can't just open the country, let anyone and everyone get sick and count the deaths as the cost of doing business. It is a phased process and it's what the US is trying to do now.

The probability of herd immunity is unknown. Herd immunity to this may never be a thing. We won't know for many months and possibly, years.