Going to the poor house:2015 Inusrance premiums

[ellochka]

That "outcome" is in the ballpark of 5 years difference. Most analysts give a +/- margin of that much.

That's not a sample analysis. This is a population analysis that does not have a margin of error.

 

[Gracie09]

A lot more would come if they could afford it, but not many middle class people can afford to come to the US and pay for surgeries or cancer treatments in cash (which can run into the six figures or more).



And haven't we learned by now that Washington bureaucrats would spend a lot more than that to run socialized medicine. Look how much Obama care costs to operate. Government NEVER runs anything cheaper than private industry.

Medicare is actually much more efficient than private insurance. That is govt run.

 

[Dakota731]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/

It's longer in countries with socialized medicine

It has nothing to do with Socialized Medicine! Cut out death by crime or car crash and US if first in the world with life expectancy.

 

[OceanAnnie]

That's not a sample analysis. This is a population analysis that does not have a margin of error.

My point is 5 years is not much.

 

[ellochka]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/

It has nothing to do with Socialized Medicine! Cut out death by crime or car crash and US if first in the world with life expectancy.

Even in that case, the so called better survival rates do not translate into meaningfully longer life expectancy. How odd is that?

Did I mention "search and you will find a measure by which the US is better"? Keep on searching.

The bottom line is still the same.

 

[eliza61]

A lot more would come if they could afford it, but not many middle class people can afford to come to the US and pay for surgeries or cancer treatments in cash (which can run into the six figures or more).


And haven't we learned by now that Washington bureaucrats would spend a lot more than that to run socialized medicine. Look how much Obama care costs to operate. Government NEVER runs anything cheaper than private industry.

But that's pretty much the case here Dakota. If you have cash (or great insurance) you get much better treatment.

That's the whole crux of the problem. I totally agree that the feds running the mad house isn't the answer. but please let's stop pretending that all things are equal here in the states.

We are in the same boat as middle class Canadians. great healthcare is only great if it'[s accessible. If my dh's insurance did not pay for the medicine his oncologist ordered guess what my dh did not get it. period end of story. In this country if you have the cash in whatever form it comes in, you get the the latest and best options. If your health insurance has high deductibles and you need that expensive surgery you either mortgage the house to get to your deductible or you go without. please explain to me how that's different.

Now my dh battled leukemia and believe me you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING got done until he proved some way to pay. NO CHEMO, NO HOSPITALIZATION NOTHING was scheduled without some reassurance of payment,heck I couldn't even park to visit him while he was in the hospital for 6 weeks without leaving a credit card number on file . This was in a major medical teaching facility of an ivy league school (hospital of university of Penn).

now I don't know about socialized medicine. my only experience with it was when I lived in Portugal but like I said I was perfectly healthy. When I was in Paris, it was pretty cool walking into the pharmacy and walking out with meds without paying but once again, that was for a relatively healthy individual. I do know I have great health insurance and when I went to have my knee replaced and orthoscopic surgery my wait was still 4 weeks. I don't know any one who lives in Canada or anyone who's traveled here for medical procedures.

so my point is unless you are well off, you are at the mercy of our jacked up system. Our system before the ACA was crappy and it's gotten worse but I refuse to pretend every thing was rosey 3 years ago.

So a lot more here in the states would get great medicine if they had the cash also. as I said, I don't like the ACA because it does nothing to fix the problem which is as Gumbo stated the rate of increase on health care is increasing exponentially.

So no matter what system we have until we fix that issue nothing will change.

You basically want to go back to the system that causes you the least amount of pain, which I totally get but sooner or later it will come right back. the days of "it's not my problem" are gone. We are too interconnected.

It's like a house with a big hole in the roof. You can keep putting buckets under the leak but eventually you will have to find out why the roof is leaking.

 

[Dakota731]

My dad's cancer cost his insurance company over $500,000 and he only had to pay a few hundred in co-pays. You won't get that top of the line, long-term care with socialized medicine. I have always thought our health care was the best in the world, it wasn't until this year that our deductible and co-pays doubled so how is that better with Obamacare?
I understand that health care is bound to rise with many people having chronic illnesses and needing long term care. We have heard stories on this board of people's cancer care costing over a million dollars. So I always thought health care was a great bargain - I know people who spend more on their car payments, cellphone or cable bills so I never understand what all the whining was about. You people voted for this so you now got it and you are still complaining. I was always appreciative of the insurance I had yet now my family is paying double what we did before your "hope and change" FIXED this problem.

 

[eliza61]

My dad's cancer cost his insurance company over $500,000 and he only had to pay a few hundred in co-pays. You won't get that top of the line, long-term care with socialized medicine. I have always thought our health care was the best in the world, it wasn't until this year that our deductible and co-pays doubled so how is that better with Obamacare?
I understand that health care is bound to rise with many people having chronic illnesses and needing long term care. We have heard stories on this board of people's cancer care costing over a million dollars. So I always thought health care was a great bargain - I know people who spend more on their car payments, cellphone or cable bills so I never understand what all the whining was about. You people voted for this so you now got it and you are still complaining. I was always appreciative of the insurance I had yet now my family is paying double what we did before your "hope and change" FIXED this problem.

I think complaining is good. I think one of the problem we have is that we are very complacent. As I said, the rise in the cost of health care has been spiraling out of control since the 80's and yet we've done nothing.

I agree with us being the best in the world to a certain extent. Like I said, if I have the best cardiologist in my back yard, he does me no good if I can't afford to see him. He can walk on water and have a 100% survival rate but if I can't see him for my ticker, well that ain't so great.

like I said numerous times, the current policy hasn't done any thing to address the cost of health care.
Why did it cost me 7500 to have my first son yet two years later it cost over 15000 to have the second. same doctor, same women, same hospital?

I've also said, I don't have any horse in that race since nothing has changed in my health care insurance. I'm still obtaining it through my employee and the cost have always gone up. EVERY single year since I've worked there and that's been 22 years. So once again let's not pretend this is a NEW problem. Now I've been looking into it since as I've said, I want to retire soon and I'll be too young for medicare and my retiree healthcare is very very limited. so in a few years I'll be in the same boat.


But you did prove my point. You thought it was great until the cost problem hit your pocket. If your premiums went back down you would think it's great again even if no one else could get the same care. That's not a solution, that's "I'm good, too bad for you".

Now I don't have any faith in any of our leadership so not going to get in a silly argument over that. for the 50th time, this issue has been dogging us for decades so we have had equal opportunities screw ups.

I do want to say, I wish we had folks who were seriously trying to fix the real problem. I don't think making one group of people suffer in order to help others is a solution.

 

[wdwfan1]

What is ACA?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

And their unions pay plenty to certain candidates to get them elected and be assured that they don't have to switch to crappy coverage like the rest of us.

And next year they get to pay taxes on those plans.

 

[Forum Jumper]

Yes, a HUGE part of what we pay in insurance premiums is for profits for the Insurance companies. Eliminate the profit and you be paying only for the health care and admin and the cost goes down.

I've never understood how that works when the insurance company is supposed to be a 'non-profit'.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

very true

and my concern is that everyone is focusing on "premiums". which I totally understand but until we figure out why a test that was 75 bucks now has inflated over 300%, we'll never get any relief.

I went to school at the Pitt and remember back in the early 80's I went to a forum hosted by newt gingrich of all people. He was the first one that I remember saying that insurance cost were getting out of control. We did absolutely nothing. Then Ms. Clinton also tried to raise the issue and was shot down.
So now we are at mass critical implode and we get "bandaides".

Now of course it's simply become a game of politics so nothing really will change at all. Even if they some how manage to get rid of ACA, does anyone really believe that health care premiums will drop? LOL. nope they won't. we'll simply revert back to "well I've got mine so no worries" to bad for you.

It's not that the test cost went from $75 to $3,000+ (though I'm sure it's risen a LOT). It's that what used to be a simple copay turned into a copay plus deductible



So kids, do we take a vacation this year or does Daddy get his cancer screen. At $3,000+ each, we're not doing both.

 

[ellochka]

My dad's cancer cost his insurance company over $500,000 and he only had to pay a few hundred in co-pays. You won't get that top of the line, long-term care with socialized medicine. I have always thought our health care was the best in the world, it wasn't until this year that our deductible and co-pays doubled so how is that better with Obamacare?

With socialized medicine you get the same or longer length of time, but with lower expenses. $500K turn into $300K. How long did your father survive under that care?

 

[ellochka]

Just to illustrate. I had my mom's full diagnostic and surgery for breast cancer done in Germany. Diagnostic mammogram was 140 euros. Biopsy with full results - 2,000 euros. The whole thing including two nuclear visits for bone metastases and sentinel node marking was under $15K. Her surgeon had a four year fellowship at John Hopkins.

In the US, I could not get even get the prices for a cash patient, and I tried and tried for about a month. I even know a finance person in one of the largest hospital networks in town. Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic were the only ones who could ballpark it for me - $20K to $30K. I went to Germany without knowing much more than ein-zwei-drei.

 

[Dakota731]

[QUOTEWith socialized medicine you get the same or longer length of time, but with lower expenses.][/QUOTE]

That's just not true. For example: among people with chronic renal fail-
ure, only half as many Canadians as Amer-
icans get dialysis, and only a third as many
Britons on a per capita basis. According to
the Fraser Institute, almost 900,000 Cana-
dian patients are on the waiting list at any
point in time. And, according to the New
Zealand government, 90,000 people are on
the waiting lists there.
Women who are diagnosed with breast cancer,
only one fifth die in the
United States, compared to one third in
France and Germany, and almost half in
the United Kingdom and New Zealand.
Among men who are diagnosed with
prostate cancer, fewer than one fifth die in
the United States, compared to one fourth
in Canada, almost half in France, and
more than half in the United Kingdom.

 

[Lucky4me]

I found out when dh had cancer just how much help is out there for medical bills.

Most hospitals have some kind of "Charity Care" program if you are struggling to pay the bills. They have very high income limits to qualify too. Ours is into the six figures for a family of three to get a percentage paid after all insurances have paid.
Right now, dh, dd and I get 80% . It brings down co pays to $5 for primary care, $10 for specialists. Our latest surgeries and scans cost very little. If you can get past the name of it- and requesting an application for it- it's well worth looking into.

His entire bill for chemo and a stem cell transplant was over a million dollars. The insurance company settled and paid out less than half that and the hospital ended up paying most of our share. Since dh is over five years in remission, I can say from experience, I believe we do have the best medical care in the world.

Having said that, our health insurance premium doubled for 2015. Everyones has. Yikes! We decided since we do have that Charity Care, to just go with the cheapest plan we can find. Then cross our fingers we stay healthy.

 

[ellochka]

That's just not true. For example: among people with chronic renal fail-
ure, only half as many Canadians as Amer-
icans get dialysis, and only a third as many
Britons on a per capita basis. According to
the Fraser Institute, almost 900,000 Cana-
dian patients are on the waiting list at any
point in time. And, according to the New
Zealand government, 90,000 people are on
the waiting lists there.
Women who are diagnosed with breast cancer,
only one fifth die in the
United States, compared to one third in
France and Germany, and almost half in
the United Kingdom and New Zealand.
Among men who are diagnosed with
prostate cancer, fewer than one fifth die in
the United States, compared to one fourth
in Canada, almost half in France, and
more than half in the United Kingdom.

Oh, gee, their care is so awful, they must me dying by the time they are 60! Oh, wait, they are not! They live longer than Americans!

Again, if you look hard, you will find a stat that makes the US look better - and if you slice and dice it long enough, you can even find a tiny thingy that makes the US look a lot better. But somehow it never translates into a a longer lifespan. This is typical playing with the numbers.


The US dramatically overtreats people. Almost half of the procedures are not needed, and nobody wants to raise their hand.

http://qr.ae/DDyjM
Explained by Mark Sale, MD.
"Ok, I'm an MD. While a resident we did a small, informal study, we got tried of admitting patients for CABG (by pass surgery) who clearly didn't need it. So, we did our own analysis of the angiograms (x rays to measure the degree of blockage), about 2/3 of the patients admitted did not meet criteria for bypass - the cardiologist and surgeons basically lied about the angiograms. Why?? really?? they make about $8000 for a couple hours work (Duh). Known in the field as the "positive wallet biopsy". About 2/3 of the C-sections aren't indicted - but it pays more than ******l delivery (and often takes less time). My dentists gets x rays of my kids teeth every six months. The ADA recommends for kids not a high risk for cavities every 2-5 years. I ask why - was told "insurance pays for it" - positive wallet biopsy. So, my kids will get about 150 xrays in their lives that they don't need - but the dentist has that boat payment to make. Want to hear about my grandmother cataract (that she didn't have, but she did have - you guessed it - positive wallet biopsy). Wisdom teeth? ADA says prophalactic extraction should never be done. Everyone I know has there kids wisdom teeth taken out - well, if insurance covers it that is.
It is a fundamentally broken system where the provided decides what is to be done, the patient gets the service and someone else pays. What would happen if you walked into a car dealer and ask the saleman "Tell me, do I need a new car? Which one? - and by the way someone else is paying for it". Would you ever leave without a new car?"

 

[OceanAnnie]

Oh, gee, their care is so awful, they must me dying by the time they are 60! Oh, wait, they are not! They live longer than Americans!

SOWELL: Two different worlds of medicine

"In those things that are crucially affected by medical care, such as cancer survival rates, the United States leads the way. In things that doctors can do little about - such as obesity, homicide or drug addiction - Americans shorten their own lives, more so than people in other comparable societies.

This enables advocates of government-run medical care to cite longevity statistics, in order to claim that our more expensive medical system is less effective, since Americans' longevity does not compare favorably with that in other comparable societies.

For those who think in terms of scoring talking points - as distinguished from trying to get at the truth - this kind of argument may sound good. But should something as serious as life and death medical issues be discussed in terms of misleading talking points?"

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/op...cle_f6b97bee-de51-11e0-9a5e-001cc4c03286.html

---------------------------------------

Here's the thing. You and others are still selling socialized medicine. The majority didn't and don't want it! After pushing the ACA through (how many times?) and robbing Peter to pay Paul, the majority still don't want it!

I don't think anyone would argue we needed reform. But the ACA wasn't it.

It hurt more people than it helped. Everyone knows it's going to get worse.

All the goings on about how great socialized medicine is isn't going to change anyone's minds after the damage that was done. The ACA stinks. It's not affordable.

I mean, come on.

 

[ellochka]

SOWELL: Two different worlds of medicine

"In those things that are crucially affected by medical care, such as cancer survival rates, the United States leads the way. In things that doctors can do little about - such as obesity, homicide or drug addiction - Americans shorten their own lives, more so than people in other comparable societies.

This enables advocates of government-run medical care to cite longevity statistics, in order to claim that our more expensive medical system is less effective, since Americans' longevity does not compare favorably with that in other comparable societies.

For those who think in terms of scoring talking points - as distinguished from trying to get at the truth - this kind of argument may sound good. But should something as serious as life and death medical issues be discussed in terms of misleading talking points?"

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/op...cle_f6b97bee-de51-11e0-9a5e-001cc4c03286.html

---------------------------------------

Here's the thing. You and others are still selling socialized medicine. The majority didn't and don't want it! After pushing the ACA through (how many times?) and robbing Peter to pay Paul, the majority still don't want it!

I don't think anyone would argue we needed reform. But the ACA wasn't it.

It hurt more people than it helped. Everyone knows it's going to get worse.

All the goings on about how great socialized medicine is isn't going to change anyone's minds after the damage that was done. The ACA stinks. It's not affordable.

I mean, come on.

So, some crook lied with numbers to you, and you are saying c'mon, let's all believe him?

Here is the lowdown on how to lie with numbers.

1. You don't like the total bottom line numbers.
2. Find a way to adjust them that benefits you. Make it look reasonable.
3. Claim success.

Here is the real deal: every country on that list has some sort of social ill that makes their numbers worse.
The Greeks smoke 3 times the Americans. The Japanese and the Koreans smoke x2. The French drink 50% as much. The Japanese and the Koreans off themselves (suicide) twice as much. The Central Europeans (Hungarians, Slovenians) get twice the rate of stomach cancer because they eat a lot of smoked foods. The US has more guns/homicides, and while it's obesity level is high, it is comparable to that of Czech Republic. Drug addictions to opiates - UK, Spain, and Switzerland are rated higher than the US. Some countries have higher radon levels. Every country has something going on.

When you adjust only for the ills that benefit (in a negative way) your country, you are cherrypicking. You are distorting numbers to make yourself look better. You are lying with numbers. Either adjust for all, or not adjust at all. Because 2-3 times the smoking is bound to have a much larger effect on mortality than a few obesity points.

 

[OceanAnnie]

So, some crook lied with numbers to you, and you are saying c'mon, let's all believe him?

Here is the lowdown on how to lie with numbers.

1. You don't like the total bottom line numbers.
2. Find a way to adjust them that benefits you. Make it look reasonable.
3. Claim success.

Here is the real deal: every country on that list has some sort of social ill that makes their numbers worse.
The Greeks smoke 3 times the Americans. The Japanese and the Koreans smoke x2. The French drink 50% as much. The Japanese and the Koreans off themselves (suicide) twice as much. The Central Europeans (Hungarians, Slovenians) get twice the rate of stomach cancer because they eat a lot of smoked foods. The US has more guns/homicides, and while it's obesity level is high, it is comparable to that of Czech Republic. Drug addictions to opiates - UK, Spain, and Switzerland are rated higher than the US. Some countries have higher radon levels. Every country has something going on.

When you adjust only for the ills that benefit (in a negative way) your country, you are cherrypicking. You are distorting numbers to make yourself look better. You are lying with numbers. Either adjust for all, or not adjust at all. Because 2-3 times the smoking is bound to have a much larger effect on mortality than a few obesity points.

Wow. Cherry picking? Distorting numbers? Lying with numbers?

Really?

I know you want to sell this stuff super bad. You can hang your hat on a chart with a 5 year spread and try to make it actually say something. Go for it. Those are interesting descriptors you chose given the example you gave.

We aren't going to agree. Period. Not going to happen.

Best to leave it at that.