God Lives On (or as MHopkins2 says...hookairs.)

Originally posted by Eeyore1954


We are not truly free until every American is able to exercise their choice or lack of choice of religion in every moment of their life.


Right. So why single out the Pledge of Allegiance? Why not take it off all US currency, and strike it from our Declaration of Independence?

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitles them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
 
Originally posted by MHopkins2
You know what I find particularly amusing? The title of this thread. As if the JudeoChristian God were so weak that it would make one smidge of difference to Him whether or not His name were included in a flag recitation. Anyone else envisioning God rolling his eyes and saying, "hookaires?"


Wouldn't GOD be so kind and compassionate that he would embrace the ones who don't want to mention his name, instead of mock and then shun them?

Hey, what do I know anyway?? ;)
 
Originally posted by Deb in IA
Right. So why single out the Pledge of Allegiance? Why not take it off all US currency, and strike it from our Declaration of Independence?
I absolutely think it should be removed from currency. The DoI is a historical document, however, and therefore acceptable as is IMO.
 
Originally posted by Deb in IA
I believe most children are allowed to remain silent during the "under God" part of the pledge these days, if they desire, are they not?

I believe you are right - I'm not aware of any law that says a child must take part in the pledge. And that's exactly why I don't see a problem with it - if the kid doesn't want to say it, don't say it.
 

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
As someone pointed out earlier, children may choose to remain silent during some or all of the pledge. However, given the nature of children, this often opens the children who choose to remain silent to verbal or even physical abuse/harassment.

We are not truly free until every American is able to exercise their choice or lack of choice of religion in every moment of their life. This includes children in school who may choose not to recite "under God" ... and who should be free to do so without fear of retribution from their classmates or worse, their teacher(s).
Well said!

I also know that sometimes hearing the same thing day in and out that disagrees with your beliefs make some uncomfortable. When I go to certain Christian services even, that are not of my own, there are things said that really truly make me uncomfortable to hear. Now I realize I have the choice to skip the function, but I can only imagine day in and out having to hear that and being required to be around for it. Not right in my eyes.

And yes, I 100% agree that "In God We Trust" needs to be removed from our currency as well.
 
As far as I know, there is no right to not be uncomfortable.

Not to mention the fact that even if "under God" is removed from the pledge, do you really think that everyone is going to instantly stop saying it? Of course not. I'm sure that kids will continue to say under God when saying the pledge in class, so people will still have to hear it.
 
It would seem peole have given up on the whole - it's God in a general sense' - agrument.

Good thing since it was so bogus.

It's too bad the court decided to drop back and punt when they were given the ball.

But there is always next time.
 
It would seem peole have given up on the whole - it's God in a general sense' - agrument.

Actually, I haven't seen that at all. In fact, the whole idea of ceremonial deism is why I don't see it as that big a deal for people to not say if they choose not to.

The idea that people should never have to hear the word "God" spoken in a government setting is ridiculous, as well as unconstitutional.

***ETA I also think that the argument that the phrase "under God" is the same as a prayer is ridiculous.
 
Not trying to be mean here, but are you saying that it's perfectly okay for you to be comfortable in a setting in a public school saying "One Nation Under God" where another is not? What is so wrong with taking it out? It was *not* there to begin with, why leave something that wasn't in the original?

I am not saying this as a non-believer in God because I most certainly do believe. I just do not, for the life of me, understand why someone who doesn't even think God should be spelled with a capital "G" should be in a public situation where they have to *pledge* to the flag for a nation that is under a higher power that they may or may not believe in. That's what the pledge is saying... they are pledging their allegience to the flag to a country that is very non-secular. Extremely wrong in my opinion.

Why can't they just take that all out and leave it how it was just about 50 years ago? Why is it so hard to actually want to separate the Church from the State? Color me stupid, but I don't know why this country founded on *freedom* is so willing to keep phrases like that. The country is full of many different beliefs, yet for some reason we remain "Christian" I truly wish that would change.
 
at my school if you did not say the pledge correctly and in its entirety, you got detention. don't know if things have changed, but that was in the 80's and 90's.
 
So if you do say the words "under GOD" in the pledge than does that mean that GOD likes you better, than someone who says "hookairs"?

What a jerk!!:(
 
Originally posted by caitycaity
at my school if you did not say the pledge correctly and in its entirety, you got detention. don't know if things have changed, but that was in the 80's and 90's.
This is an example of the tyranny of the majority and is an excellent reason why the pledge should revert to its original form. Same for the currency.
 
Not trying to be mean here, but are you saying that it's perfectly okay for you to be comfortable in a setting in a public school saying "One Nation Under God" where another is not?

Yes, I am. People hear things every single day that make them uncomfortable. Does that mean that they have the right to tell others not to say those things?

What is so wrong with taking it out?

Taking it out is neither right nor wrong to me, because I will continue to say "under God" whether it is included in the written pledge or not. I'm just saying that the notion that people have a right to not be uncomfortable is ridiculous.

It was *not* there to begin with, why leave something that wasn't in the original?

Hmmm...well in that case, let's take the XIX Amendment out of the Constitution, since it wasn't there to begin with. The Founders didn't think women should vote, so why change it? And while we're at it, let's remove the XIII Amendment. The Founders saw no reason to abolish it, right? I mean, it wasn't in the original, so why change it?

Why can't they just take that all out and leave it how it was just about 50 years ago?

They may do so, but that isn't going stop people from saying "under God" anyway, so people are still going to be "uncomfortable". Better they learn to deal with discomfort when they are young, don't you think?
 
Originally posted by helenabear
The country is full of many different beliefs, yet for some reason we remain "Christian" I truly wish that would change.

::yes::
 
Originally posted by helenabear
Not trying to be mean here, but are you saying that it's perfectly okay for you to be comfortable in a setting in a public school saying "One Nation Under God" where another is not? What is so wrong with taking it out? It was *not* there to begin with, why leave something that wasn't in the original?

I am not saying this as a non-believer in God because I most certainly do believe. I just do not, for the life of me, understand why someone who doesn't even think God should be spelled with a capital "G" should be in a public situation where they have to *pledge* to the flag for a nation that is under a higher power that they may or may not believe in. That's what the pledge is saying... they are pledging their allegience to the flag to a country that is very non-secular. Extremely wrong in my opinion.

Why can't they just take that all out and leave it how it was just about 50 years ago? Why is it so hard to actually want to separate the Church from the State? Color me stupid, but I don't know why this country founded on *freedom* is so willing to keep phrases like that. The country is full of many different beliefs, yet for some reason we remain "Christian" I truly wish that would change.

This is really nicely said. Sometimes I think there are people in this country who enjoy obsessing about and looking for things that amount to secret handshakes, passwords, and qualifications that are meant to exclude anyone who is different. Who really cares about the pledge of allegience, anyway? Leave it for the people who want to wear their patriotism on their sleeve and act like being an American citizen is like belonging to a college fraternity . The true freedom lovers know that freedom means not having to pledge anything under anybody.
 
Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Yes, I am. People hear things every single day that make them uncomfortable. Does that mean that they have the right to tell others not to say those things?

I sure wish you were the head of the FCC. But since you are not, would you mind forwarding your thoughts to them if you agree this should be the case no matter what the subject.
 
Originally posted by cardaway
I sure wish you were the head of the FCC. But since you are not, would you mind forwarding your thoughts to them if you agree this should be the case no matter what the subject.

Sure, I'll be happy to, though I doubt it will do much good. I could be mistaken, but I *think* that the SC has already ruled that the FCC can regulate the public airwaves, in which case the point is moot. And the SC may well do the same with the pledge at some point. But that doesn't change the fact that I believe there is no right to not be offended or made to feel uncomfortable.
 
Yes, I am. People hear things every single day that make them uncomfortable. Does that mean that they have the right to tell others not to say those things?
Depending on your location yes, others do have the right to tell others not to say those things. We have rules at work that keeps me in line. If I offend someone with something I say, I can eventually get fired for it. While that is a violation to a point of my rights, I guess I don't get that bent out of shape since it falls under the idea of respect for me. I have a terrible foul mouth but I certainly watch it here and in my dad's home. I do not want to offend so I watch myself. Of course not that long ago, I wasn't allowed to say some things in my house because my family was not comfortable saying them.
Also the FCC does still have a say in what is an isn't allowed to be spoken on TV.
Just a few examples of personal, business, and national levels of when we are told what we can and can't say. Again I am not too upset since I look at is more of a respect thing.

Taking it out is neither right nor wrong to me, because I will continue to say "under God" whether it is included in the written pledge or not. I'm just saying that the notion that people have a right to not be uncomfortable is ridiculous.
Well then since you don't mind, all the more reason to take it out. The notion of others being uncomfortable isn't ridiculous though... look above at my FCC and work examples. Not terribly different.
As an aside, one year at work we were told we were not allowed to have obvious religious implications in our holiday decorations as a few Muslim, Jewish and Athiests were offended by our decorations. We had to comply... so obviously there their comfort level was brought down and we helped to make sure they did remain comfortable.

Hmmm...well in that case, let's take the XIX Amendment out of the Constitution, since it wasn't there to begin with. The Founders didn't think women should vote, so why change it? And while we're at it, let's remove the XIII Amendment. The Founders saw no reason to abolish it, right? I mean, it wasn't in the original, so why change it?
In my eyes, this is not at all the same thing. Those Amendements were allowable and added to go with the changing times and to correct any mistakes that may have been in the constitution, to clarifiy anything or to add something that may have been left out. To just delete and add to a formal official governing document (sort of a contract if you will) w/o making it an official amendment is not something I consider a wise thing to do (for many reasons). So the amendments serve a totally different purpose.

Under those thoughts, the pledge is not a official governing doucment in my eyes, and there for doesn't need to be treated the same. If you like, we can treat it the same and create an official document giving the original, the 2nd version and after eliminating the "Under God" portion call it a 2nd ammendment. Sounds a bit silly, to some I bet, but that way it would at least be treated the same for those who think they do fall under the same category.
 
The true freedom lovers know that freedom means not having to pledge anything under anybody.

With the exception of my children, I personally don't care who does or doesn't say the pledge, nor do I care whether they say "under God" or not - totally up to each individual. But I find it interesting that you equate "true freedom" with not saying the pledge...I guess those of us that say the pledge are not as free as those of you that don't?
 
We have rules at work that keeps me in line. If I offend someone with something I say, I can eventually get fired for it.

An employer setting rules for you to follow is quite different than another employee setting rules for you to follow, wouldn't you agree?

The notion of others being uncomfortable isn't ridiculous though...

I disagree, I think it is. If simply hearing the word "God" is enough to make someone uncomfortable enough to insist that others not say it, I personally think that person has some other issues that probably need to be addressed.

As an aside, one year at work we were told we were not allowed to have obvious religious implications in our holiday decorations as a few Muslim, Jewish and Athiests were offended by our decorations. We had to comply...

Private companies can certainly determine (to a degree) what speech is permitted and what isn't. The government however is much more limited in that respect.

Under those thoughts, the pledge is not a official governing doucment in my eyes, and there for doesn't need to be treated the same.

I agree that it isn't a governing document, but there is a legislated, official pledge that was instituted by Congress.
 














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