GM to lay off 30,000 people

[ducklite]

When I was young and foolish, I bought American cars. Lots of problems, repairs and Lemons.

Last American vehicles we bought were 9 years ago.
Now own one toyota and 3 Nissans-and 3 of the 4 were actually manufactured in American Plants.

I attend the new car shows yearly and mostly skip the American areas-the vehicles have no style, no pizzaz, nothing to make me want to own one.

We've owned four Saturns in ten years. We had one that had some problems, but we never had to fight to get it right, and they always gave us a loaner when it was warrantee work. The other three have been great, including a cream puff 2001 L-200 with 80K miles who has never given us an ounce of trouble.

I had a Jetta for awhile, and had nothing but problems with the liars at the dealership. When the car was in an accident, 30 days later they still couldn't get the aprt to replace it--that's when I traded it in "as is" for another Saturn, and would NEVER buy another VW.

Anne

 

[Chicago526]

When I was young and foolish, I bought American cars. Lots of problems, repairs and Lemons.

Last American vehicles we bought were 9 years ago.
Now own one toyota and 3 Nissans-and 3 of the 4 were actually manufactured in American Plants.

I attend the new car shows yearly and mostly skip the American areas-the vehicles have no style, no pizzaz, nothing to make me want to own one.

I too am a Saturn nut! I've had mine for going on 8 years (hit 90,000 miles last week) and have nothing but routine maintenance and wear and tear issues. The sad thing is that GM is treating it as their evil step-child, when it's their best line, quality wise.

 

[ducklite]

I too am a Saturn nut! I've had mine for going on 8 years (hit 90,000 miles last week) and have nothing but routine maintenance and wear and tear issues. The sad thing is that GM is treating it as their evil step-child, when it's their best line, quality wise.

I believe it's also their most profitable line.

Anne

 

[C.Ann]

SUV sales are so bad - even the used ones - they can hardly give them away.. People won't forget what happened to the gas prices this year and you can be sure it will happen again next year and the year after and so on.. At some point even those who feel they can afford them now will find that they no longer can..

 

[wvrevy]

It ain't "fixed" even in countries that "fixed" it the way she wanted to "fix" it here. For example the CEO of AFLAC recently commented on the insurance market in Japan. Japan "fixed" their health care system with a nationalized system years ago, but as real costs of health care have continued to increase the co-pay has been periodically raised from 10% to 30% now. So in Japan AFLAC is looking at offering health insurance to cover what their "fixed" system doesn't cover. How's that for surreal?

As for the GM situation, it stinks.... particularly for Lansing, MI that is quickly becoming Flint, Part Deux. Oldsmobile imploded there, and now another operation is going bye-bye.

So...in other words, you think it's a bad thing that the Japanese are faced with paying 30% of their own medical bills, and that they may have to buy private insurance - at a fraction of the cost, most likely, that we pay - to cover that?

While I'll certainly agree that spiraling costs are a big part of the problem (and there are many root causes for that), I think I'll take their "fix" over the status quo that is so obviously NOT working in THIS country.

 

[dvcgirl]

I feel for all those losing their jobs - especially at this time of year.

And it will be even more unfortunate if GM files for bankruptcy and the thousands of GM retirees and future GM retirees see their pensions slashed by about 75% ala the same scenario that unfolded for United Airlines employees.

Unfortunately, there's a good chance that this is what will happen. And not just to GM. Ford is in trouble. Delphi just filed. All of the other major airlines are in trouble. The Baby Bells are in trouble. Verizon's pension plan is disasterously underfunded.

In fact, 75% of the companies that still offer defined pension programs are underfunded. The Government funded Pension Benefit Gurarty Corp, which is supposed to help bailout these underfunded pension programs, is 25 Billion dollars (give or take a billion) underfunded itself. And it's not even just the big companies in trouble. NBC Nightly news is running a three night series called "Pension Tension". Last night's story covered public funded pensions, like those for school teachers. Hundreds of school systems pension funds across this country are underfunded. Apparently nobody is safe anymore.

The lesson here....we're on our own. We need to be saving and investing our *own* money. *We* are now responsible for funding our own retirements...and yet, so few are doing anything about it at all.

 

[dvcgirl]

While I'm certainly sorry for the people losing their jobs, what exactly did people think that GM was going to do They are being choked to death by benefit costs for present and past employees.

I think that the days of big definied-benefit healthcare plans are coming to an end, as evidenced by GM's plight. We're about to see BIG changes to high-deductable insurance and HSA's across the board, and I'm not sure that that's a bad thing. GM is not the only company forced to cut so many jobs because of benefit costs, but they are the biggest and most visible.

Bingo.

There are a lot more of these types of stories coming. Some will be big news, but there are lots of little stories like this unfolding all over the country. In GM's case, part of the problem is the benefit plan, specifically the pension plan.

I saw one news story interviewing a GM plant worker from Georgia. He said he'd move to another part of the country to get his "30 years in". The problem is, he's expecting that his pension will be there...just as it was promised. And chances are very good that it will not be there, at least not in the amount promised. The "social contract" of old, where you worked 30 years, got the gold watch and a pension is vanishing right in front of our eyes.

 

[dvcgirl]

You're so right mickeysgal, it will indeed affect EVERYONE, regardless if you have a plant in town or not.

What has to change? More people need to BUY AMERICAN. Too many are buying foreign cars. Back in the day american cars were not as good. But for quite awhile now they have been rated as good, if not better.

But even if they were NOT better, think of the big picture ~we live in America. These buying trends are happening across the board in all kinds of consumer goods; whatever seems cheaper is what people buy, without thinking of the big picture, the long term consequences. There are cut-backs being made in every industry. Makes one wonder where it will all end.....

The problem here, we now live in a global economy, a far different world than even 25 years ago. It's tough to convince me to buy an American car when I can buy a Japanese car for slightly more money and get much higher dependiblity. I never understood this. People will pay for quality, and yet Chevy and Ford continue to deliver mediocre product.

 

[Geoff_M]

So...in other words, you think it's a bad thing that the Japanese are faced with paying 30% of their own medical bills, and that they may have to buy private insurance - at a fraction of the cost, most likely, that we pay - to cover that?

If they wouldn't be "double whammied" by having to pay taxes to cover the nationalized health care in addition to the private health care insurance, I might agree with your point. Japan isn't alone. Many nationalized healthcare systems have had to cope with rising red ink by cost shifting back to the patient... things like increasing co-pays and/or "de-listing" procedures (such as x-rays, lab tests, etc.) for coverage.

My point is that it's possible to oppose such a "fix" on the basis of something other than reflexive ideology.

 

[cardaway]

The unions took their jobs away, period.

The same thing is happening here with Boeing. The strike themselves out of a job.

 

[Puffy2]

In fact, 75% of the companies that still offer defined pension programs are underfunded.

And that is the problem. Pensions are promised to employees upon hire (it's part of the deal - the reason why a person takes a job) - then the company doesn't 'fund' the pension and when they have to pay out, they face financial troubles. No duh...

Under funding a pension or not funding it when promised should be illegal. If funded properly and invested at interest, the company should have no problem turning the employee's money over to them at retirement. Underfunding or not funding and then failing to offer the pension at retirement is nothing more than stealing from the employee.

 

[dvcgirl]

And that is the problem. Pensions are promised to employees upon hire (it's part of the deal - the reason why a person takes a job) - then the company doesn't 'fund' the pension and when they have to pay out, they face financial troubles. No duh...

Under funding a pension or not funding it when promised should be illegal. If funded properly and invested at interest, the company should have no problem turning the employee's money over to them at retirement. Underfunding or not funding and then failing to offer the pension at retirement is nothing more than stealing from the employee.

We need tougher legislation in place here or we're going to end with a bill for the American taxpayers similar to that of the Savings and Loan Scandal. The main problem is that these big companies have increased benefit packages in lieu of big pay raises and then there's no reporting of what they are doing with those funds. Mostly, they're not being funded. And so, if a company has a shortfall in their pension fund, they have a tendency to take on risker investments hoping to recoup the losses. They're playing with their workers money. And many have lost. There needs to be full disclosure on how those funds are invested.

 

[ducklite]

The lesson here....we're on our own. We need to be saving and investing our *own* money. *We* are now responsible for funding our own retirements...and yet, so few are doing anything about it at all.

I've felt all along that it's crucial to have your own savings for at the very least neccesary living expenses at retirement. Any pension or SS money can pay for extras.

Anne

 

[chrissyk]

I've felt all along that it's crucial to have your own savings for at the very least neccesary living expenses at retirement. Any pension or SS money can pay for extras.

Anne

I couldn't agree more.

 

[dvcgirl]

I've felt all along that it's crucial to have your own savings for at the very least neccesary living expenses at retirement. Any pension or SS money can pay for extras.

Anne

Well, I do too. I sometimes get scolded a bit on the budget board because folks think I'm trying to push "my way" of living on them. "My way" meaning not just living beneath my means, but meeting my monthly bills *and* my savings/investment goals before I spend a single penny. To me that's what it means to be able to afford something. And it's not just "my way", it is the way some other folks live. But there are plenty who are not saving...consumer debt is through the roof, traditional pensions disappearing, Social Security unlikely to be able to pay out what it is now (and even that isn't enough), I can't help but wonder what people are going to do.

 

[DisneyMomOK]

I am worried for our society. Manufacturing jobs were the doorway to the middle class. That portal is closing. An economy that is only based on a service industry cannot support a large middle class. Even the trade jobs (plumber, electrician, etc.) are being under-cut in value by the large influx of immigrant (mainly illegal) labor that is now taking those jobs in new and remodel construction (easier to get around the license requirements). Yes, the necessity is there to save for tomorrow, because there are no guarantees.

Sharon

 

[vettechick99]

The problem here, we now live in a global economy, a far different world than even 25 years ago. It's tough to convince me to buy an American car when I can buy a Japanese car for slightly more money and get much higher dependiblity. I never understood this. People will pay for quality, and yet Chevy and Ford continue to deliver mediocre product.

Exactly, dvcgirl. I've had 4 foreign cars (Honda & Nissan) and 3 American cars (Plymouth & Chevy). One of the Chevy's I had was the Corvette...you'd think with a car that costs as much as they do that you'd have few problems. Four times I went in with my (brand new) car for electrical problems within the first year. I've never taken in any of my foreign cars until they hit well over 100,000 miles. We have an Accord with 165,000 miles on it that's still going strong! Now that we are looking for a new car, I can already tell you it's gonna be a Honda or Nissan. I'd love to support America, but right now I need a car that's dependable and will last. American-made cars just haven't proven their worth to me.

But what I'd like to know, if there is an answer, why healthcare costs are increasing?

 

[tandrjohn]

Exactly, dvcgirl. I've had 4 foreign cars (Honda & Nissan) and 3 American cars (Plymouth & Chevy). One of the Chevy's I had was the Corvette...you'd think with a car that costs as much as they do that you'd have few problems. Four times I went in with my (brand new) car for electrical problems within the first year. I've never taken in any of my foreign cars until they hit well over 100,000 miles. We have an Accord with 165,000 miles on it that's still going strong! Now that we are looking for a new car, I can already tell you it's gonna be a Honda or Nissan. I'd love to support America, but right now I need a car that's dependable and will last. American-made cars just haven't proven their worth to me.

But what I'd like to know, if there is an answer, why healthcare costs are increasing?

Maybe you should called yourself "Hondachick" or "Nissanchick" instead of your Corvette reference. Just kidding around with ya! Corvette's have NEVER been known for their reliability!

 

[Denine]

If people would buy American cars, then GM wouldn't be in this position. I hope everyone realizes that not just GM will be affected. Everyone that manufactures anything that is used in the making of cars will be affected. It is called the trickle down theory.

My family has always owned American as well as DH's family. We are all very happy with our GM cars and see no reason to change.

 

[Chicago526]

OT, but my DH has a pension through his union (not the company, the union). How can you find out if it is under funded or not?

I keep telling him we can't count on it and we need to start an IRA for him, but he says "it will be fine". I already have a 401k through my employer, but I wanted to start something for DH in case the pension doesn't come through. I think I'll up my contribution after my next raise since DH doesn't want to start an IRA. But I'd like to check further into the stability of his union's pension if I can.