GM to lay off 30,000 people

[chrissyk]

Yeah, I remember this as a kid in the '60s and '70s. And I also remember doctor's visits were $25, and test costs were reasonable too.

Good luck trying to do everything with a Health Savings Account. Get real. You'll be bankrupt with your first real illness.

You must have a HDHP to qualify for the HSA. You can't do "everything" with an HSA. It is a SUPPLIMENT to the HDHP. Why, exactly, would you think that someone with a high-deductable policy and an HSA would be bankrupt with their first real illness? The annual out-of-pocket max. on HSA-eligable HDHP policies is 10K. That's 2 years' worth of maxing out an HSA for a family. How, exactly, is that bankrupcy?

On the other hand, say you have employer-sponsored first-dollar health insurance, and you get cancer. You're out of work, and you exhaust your 18 months on COBRA. You are broke because you have no job. You can't afford the HIPPA-eligable premium for the HDHP in your state, which you now need because you're in the high-risk pool. On top of that, you have no HSA savings because you were dependant on that employer policy...now THAT is the recipe for medical bankrupcy. It's a very common scenario currently.

Also, how much do you think that that $25 Dr.'s visit in 1970 would cost you in today's inflation-adjusted dollars Might it be close to the $90-$100 that you'd pay out-of-pocket for Dr. visits if you had an HDHP? I think that it would be. People need to get used to this idea, because it's not going away. Again, I really don't think that that's a bad thing. HDHP and HSA combos will allow people to AVOID medical bankrupcy because they'll no longer be dependant upon their employment to provide their medical insurance (and therefore no longer risk losing said medical insurance if they get sick and can't work).

 

[dvcgirl]

-------------------------------------

Depending on the lifestyle one chooses to live, I think $350,000 to supplement SS is totally unrealistic - unless you're including medical expenses in that figure..

There are many, many books and magazine articles out there that debunk the astronomical figures that are being thrown at people.. It's always good to get a "balanced" view and not just run with the chicken little scenario..

$350,000 to supplement SS unrealistic? Really? I don't know what your personal situation is, but this is really simple math. Yes, there are tons of factors and variables. But lets assume our retiree is married, ended up making 50K as a couple and own their home, have no debt and would like to remain independent.

They can count on Uncle Sam to send them $1,200 a month. Most people can live on less money when they retire, so let's take our retiree down to $40,000 a year, 80% of their former salary or about $3,400 a month. They don't need to save anymore, and their living expenses have gone down a bit since they retired. They've ditched one car and the expenses that go with it. they're looking forward to a retirement that includes some travel.

Our 65 year old retirees have no pension, so can only rely on their savings. They're fairly healthy and so they're figuring on at least 15 years of retirement to play it safe (many calculators tell you to factor on at least 20 years). Somewhere they are going to need to come up with $2,200 a month. If they have $350,000 saved, and live that 15 years and pull out $2200 a month, their money will run out. They learn from their financial planner that they can safely pull out $1,600 a month for his money to last their lifetime (and now they're wondering what will happen if both or one of them sees age 81). This factors in inflation at 3% and a fairly conservative portfolio.

So now they're down to $2,800 a month, or $33,600 a year. Unless our retirees are living with the kids it's going to be tough to live on their own in many parts of the country on that income, even if the house is paid off. I'm in a similar situation with no debt at all and live a pretty frugal life, and I couldn't run my house on that income.

And this is a retiree who has actually saved $350,000....and is retiring at 65, not 62.

 

[C.Ann]

So now they're down to $2,800 a month, or $33,600 a year. Unless our retirees are living with the kids it's going to be tough to live on their own in many parts of the country on that income, even if the house is paid off. I'm in a similar situation with no debt at all and live a pretty frugal life, and I couldn't run my house on that income..

-------------------------
Leaving aside unexpected medical expenses, if a retired family of two (and positively "one") cannot live on $33,600 a year, without living with or relying on their children, then they are doing something drastically wrong..

What kind of retirement lifestyle are you talking about? Trips? Cruises? Second homes? Eating out every night of the week? New boats? New Cars?

Sorry - but I don't feel your figures pertain to the "average" retiree.. Your information is skewed at best.. Do a little research on the less "hysterical" side and you might be very surprised by what you learn..

 

[arminnie]

Yeah, I remember this as a kid in the '60s and '70s. And I also remember doctor's visits were $25, and test costs were reasonable too.

And minimum wage was $1 an hour in the late 60s. Someone who made $10,000 a year was RICH. You could get a house that was practically a mansion for $35,000.

 

[Planogirl]

Which cars are actually American nowadays? It's hard to tell IMO.

 

[KelNottAt]

Which cars are actually American nowadays? It's hard to tell IMO.

That's what I've been thinking since this thread started a few days ago. Can anyone point to a car that is really, truly American? OK, well, lets not say 100% American, but nearly so.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I just really wonder if such a thing exists.

 

[chrissyk]

-------------------------
Leaving aside unexpected medical expenses, if a retired family of two (and positively "one") cannot live on $33,600 a year, without living with or relying on their children, then they are doing something drastically wrong..

What kind of retirement lifestyle are you talking about? Trips? Cruises? Second homes? Eating out every night of the week? New boats? New Cars?

Sorry - but I don't feel your figures pertain to the "average" retiree.. Your information is skewed at best.. Do a little research on the less "hysterical" side and you might be very surprised by what you learn..

C. Ann and DVCGirl, you are BOTH actually correct on this topic (bet you didn't think that that was possible!). The variable that makes you both correct is WHERE the hypothetical retirees live. You can live in a paid-for house in Bergen County NJ and not be able to afford the property taxes, car insurance and a cat-food diet on that house on the hypothetical income of $33,600 a year, or you can live in a paid-for house in a low-tax state and live very well on said income.

Fixed expenses are what the retirees need to worry about. If they choose to relocate to an area with no state income tax, low property taxes, low insurance costs, relatively low utility costs (say a warmer climate, so no high oil bill), etc., they can certainly live and even live well on the hypothetical income. If they stay put in a high-cost area, they will not make it financially on the same income. BTW, this is entirely discounting healthcare costs.

 

[cardaway]

Actually the quality of American cars started declining about 1970 and hit it's poor quality peak in the 1980's. It started getting better in the 90's and today is actually pretty good and for the most part is comparable to most foreign cars except for maybe the high end vehicles like Lexus and perhaps a few Mercedes and BMW models. I think the problem is a lot of people remember those 70's and 80's nightmares and don't realize that American quality is a lot better today.

But if 100% is the goal, 50% is what they dropped to in the 80's, and you could say they are back up to 80%, that's still less that the average 100% Asian car.

I'm not aware of any quality reports that show that the American cars have taken back a superior quality average over any class of import automobile.

I also know too many people who try American and end up with failures within the first three months. A few stories is chance, lots of stories equals a continued trend.

 

[cardaway]

Which cars are actually American nowadays? It's hard to tell IMO.

Excellent point. What makes it American. Being assembled here?

IMO it's the Ameircan brand name. For whatever reason the American brands are still falling behind foriegn brands, and IMO it is because they have cut quality to compete on cost.

 

[jodifla]

And minimum wage was $1 an hour in the late 60s. Someone who made $10,000 a year was RICH. You could get a house that was practically a mansion for $35,000.

Someone who made $10,000 in the late 60s was not "rich." Middle class, maybe, but not rich.

 

[tandrjohn]

That's what I've been thinking since this thread started a few days ago. Can anyone point to a car that is really, truly American? OK, well, lets not say 100% American, but nearly so.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I just really wonder if such a thing exists.

Here is a list of 2005 models that are the closest thing to "100% American":

I got this from http://www.usstuff.com/ (I have no idea if this site is reliable)

2005 Chevrolet Astro Rwd Cargo Van 4.3v6 4spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Baltimore, MD
USA Engine
USA Transmission
92% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Malibu Base Sedan 2.2L4 4spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Kansas City, KS
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford Taurus SE 4 Door Sedan 3.0v6 Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Atlanta, GA
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Pontiac Bonneville GXP Sedan 4.6 v8 4spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Hamtramck, MI
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Trailblazer LS 2WD 4.2i6 4spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Moraine, OH
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Trailblazer LS 4WD 4.2i6 4spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Moraine, OH
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford F-150 4x2 Regular Cab 4.6v8 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Norfolk, VA
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford F-150 4x2 Supercab 4.6v8 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Norfolk, VA
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford F-150 4x2 Supercrew 4.6v8 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Dearborn, MI
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 4wd Crew Cab Z71 4.8v8 4spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Ft. Wayne, IN
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercrew 5.4v8 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Kansas City, MO
USA Engine
USA Transmission
90% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Colorado 2wd LS Crew Cab Z85 3.5i5 4spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Shreveport, LA
USA Engine
USA Transmission
86% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Chevy SSR Super Sport Roadster 6.0v8 6spd Man
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Lansing, MI
USA Engine
USA Transmission
86% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Chevy SSR Super Sport Roadster 6.0v8 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Lansing, MI
USA Engine
USA Transmission
86% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Chevrolet Express Work Van 4.3v6 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Wentzville, MO
USA Engine
USA Transmission
86% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford Escape XLT 4wd 3.0v6 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Kansas City, MO
USA Engine
USA Transmission
85% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford Escape XLT Sport 4wd 3.0v6 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Kansas City, MO
USA Engine
USA Transmission
85% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford Thunderbird 3.9v8 5spd Auto
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Wixon, MI
USA Engine
USA Transmission

2005 Ford Expedition XLS 4x2 5.4v8 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Wayne, MI
USA Engine
USA Transmission
80% US/Canadian Parts Content

2005 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 4x4 5.4v8 4spd Auto OD
USA Owned
USA Assembly- Wayne, MI
USA Engine
USA Transmission
80% US/Canadian Parts Content

 

[jodifla]

You must have a HDHP to qualify for the HSA. You can't do "everything" with an HSA. It is a SUPPLIMENT to the HDHP. Why, exactly, would you think that someone with a high-deductable policy and an HSA would be bankrupt with their first real illness? The annual out-of-pocket max. on HSA-eligable HDHP policies is 10K. That's 2 years' worth of maxing out an HSA for a family. How, exactly, is that bankrupcy?

On the other hand, say you have employer-sponsored first-dollar health insurance, and you get cancer. You're out of work, and you exhaust your 18 months on COBRA. You are broke because you have no job. You can't afford the HIPPA-eligable premium for the HDHP in your state, which you now need because you're in the high-risk pool. On top of that, you have no HSA savings because you were dependant on that employer policy...now THAT is the recipe for medical bankrupcy. It's a very common scenario currently.

Also, how much do you think that that $25 Dr.'s visit in 1970 would cost you in today's inflation-adjusted dollars Might it be close to the $90-$100 that you'd pay out-of-pocket for Dr. visits if you had an HDHP? I think that it would be. People need to get used to this idea, because it's not going away. Again, I really don't think that that's a bad thing. HDHP and HSA combos will allow people to AVOID medical bankrupcy because they'll no longer be dependant upon their employment to provide their medical insurance (and therefore no longer risk losing said medical insurance if they get sick and can't work).

Please define HDHP. I'm not understanding the acronym.

 

[chrissyk]

Please define HDHP. I'm not understanding the acronym.

Sorry! High Deductable Health Plan. In order to meet the qualifications to have an HSA in the first place, you must have an HDHP with deductables above a certain amount for individual and family, but below 5K and 10K respectively (annually) for an individual and family.

 

[eclectics]

But if 100% is the goal, 50% is what they dropped to in the 80's, and you could say they are back up to 80%, that's still less that the average 100% Asian car.

I'm not aware of any quality reports that show that the American cars have taken back a superior quality average over any class of import automobile.

I also know too many people who try American and end up with failures within the first three months. A few stories is chance, lots of stories equals a continued trend.

American quality is by no means sterling. I called it pretty good which I think is accurate. It's not superior to the foreign models, just comparable in a lot of cases. This observation comes from auto consumer reports, magazines, and people I come in contact with that own them. I'm saying a lot of Americans are gun shy and refuse to even consider them, which is a shame. I bought a Chrysler which would have been idiotic as late as the late 1990's. But it's a darn good car and I have had no problems after 4 years. They've got a way to go but I think in the last 5 years the American manufacturers are starting to get their act together. Let's face it, they really have to, in order to start competing.

 

[dvcgirl]

-------------------------
Leaving aside unexpected medical expenses, if a retired family of two (and positively "one") cannot live on $33,600 a year, without living with or relying on their children, then they are doing something drastically wrong..

What kind of retirement lifestyle are you talking about? Trips? Cruises? Second homes? Eating out every night of the week? New boats? New Cars?

Sorry - but I don't feel your figures pertain to the "average" retiree.. Your information is skewed at best.. Do a little research on the less "hysterical" side and you might be very surprised by what you learn..

I don't know your personal situation, where you live, what your personal income is or was (if you are retired), but $2,800 a month in many parts of the country is not enough money. It just isn't. The "average" retiree? I'm talking about a couple who are retiring right now, who have made 50K as a couple. Do you think 50K a year is a ton of money...we're talking total 50K....two incomes. We have another thread on the budget board with a young couple making 50K, paying only 500 a month for their rent (including mobile home and taxes on land), with one car between them and they are struggling. Coincidentally, that OP shared that her income was right about that $2,800 figure.

And so if you have a couple, about to retire, who have made a combined income of 50K in the final year before retirement who would like to maintain the same lifestyle that they have.....with *just* 350K saved, they will not be able to maintain that lifestyle without an additional income source. Something is going to have to be cut.

 

[tandrjohn]

They've got a way to go but I think in the last 5 years the American manufacturers are starting to get their act together. Let's face it, they really have to, in order to start competing.

Isn't that the truth. IMO the quality of American cars is comparible to Asian/European cars. However, the Asian manufacturers are kicking our *** in the design area and IMO, this is one of the major reasons for their gain in market share. The other reason is that the Asian manufacturers can give the public more car for their money because of the high legacy cost of American manufacturers.

 

[ducklite]

Face it, unless you are buying something like a Lamborghini or a Ferarri, every model of every car has had a lemon along the line someplace, regardless of where it was made.

The number one reason I keep buying Saturn's is that they have the best customer service, plain and simple. We've had lackluster service with the Toyota dealership--not bad, but no personality at all, and WV was the biggest bunch of lying jerks I've ever had to deal with!

Monday night I dropped my ION off for routine service. They did the work and locked the keys in the car, and I picked it up last night. When we got there, as I started to get out of DH's car, DH said "there's a man getting out of his car right near you--I'm watching him so don't be scared". (I startle very easily, and would have let out a whoop of a scream if I saw him out of the corner of my eye). Anyhow, the man approached me and asked if I needed help with anything. I told him no, that I was just picking up my car. He asked if the service experience had been good, and I said yes, fine. He then introduced himself as the owner of the dealership. We got talking (by this time my DH was out of his car as well. He asked DH why he bought a Prius, and they got talking about hybrids.

We had a great conversation, and when he asked if there was anything he could do for us, I told him to get Saturn to move up the date I could order my SKY. He was laughing and asked if I was on teh wait list yet, and I told him absolutely! I said I didn't even need to see the car in person or test drive it, I wanted one, end of story. He asked if I had seen one in person yet, and I told him no, and he gave us comp tickets to the Orlando car show going on this week and said they had a SKY there. He gave us his business card and told us to be sure to call him if we ever needed anything.

OK, moral of the story, what other brand of car would you find that level of customer service with?

Anne

 

[dvcgirl]

Yeah, I remember this as a kid in the '60s and '70s. And I also remember doctor's visits were $25, and test costs were reasonable too.

Good luck trying to do everything with a Health Savings Account. Get real. You'll be bankrupt with your first real illness.

I don't think you have a good understanding of how HDHPs and HSAs work. For one, the premiums are very, very low. I'm talking two hundred dollars a month. Yes, my deductible will be high, $5,000 a year, and yes, that is the one risk, but only until you get your HSA funded. Once the HSA is funded, if we have a catastrophic illness greater than the deductible, I'm covered.

But by holding the HDHP policy the government is in essence allowing me to *invest* another $5,250 a year, tax free mind you, in my HSA. Just like a 401K. So, invested wisely, that money is going to grow, and I'm going to continue to add to it. And the real bonus is that I can pull that money out of that HSA for medical expenses and pay no taxes (unlike a 401K which is taxed as income down the road)! I'm only 38 years old, my DH 37, and healthy. By the time we are eligible for Medicare, we'll have $200,000 in our HSA (conservatively). And I can pull money from that fund (tax free) to pay for my Medicare premiums and deductibles.

Right now, my HDHP premiums are written off because I'm a small business owner. We are currently paying 500 a month to DH company for health insurance, plus co-pays of $50 a month on meds. His company will give us $100 a month if he drops out of their plan. So now we have $650 to play with. Premium is $200. His meds are $140 a month (buying a three month supply), and we'll be using tax free money to buy them from our HSA. So we have $410 left a month....that will go to fund our HSA for the year....and it's *our* money. The last time I checked, when I send my insurance company money, they aren't putting those funds in a special account to give back to me later

I don't think this plan is for everyone. But it is ideal for us and will allow us to take control of our health insurance and build a nice tax free nest egg that we can pull from when we are retired.

 

[cardaway]

The other reason is that the Asian manufacturers can give the public more car for their money because of the high legacy cost of American manufacturers.

I agree with that as well. Why accept less?

They have become comparible, so people making the decision to buy an American car are not losing as much and not taking as big of a risk.

If it makes me a bad person, oh well, but I'm going to take the lesser risk and get more for my money.

 

[C.Ann]

C. Ann and DVCGirl, you are BOTH actually correct on this topic (bet you didn't think that that was possible!). The variable that makes you both correct is WHERE the hypothetical retirees live. You can live in a paid-for house in Bergen County NJ and not be able to afford the property taxes, car insurance and a cat-food diet on that house on the hypothetical income of $33,600 a year, or you can live in a paid-for house in a low-tax state and live very well on said income.

Fixed expenses are what the retirees need to worry about. If they choose to relocate to an area with no state income tax, low property taxes, low insurance costs, relatively low utility costs (say a warmer climate, so no high oil bill), etc., they can certainly live and even live well on the hypothetical income. If they stay put in a high-cost area, they will not make it financially on the same income. BTW, this is entirely discounting healthcare costs.

---------------------------------------

Thanks! That's exactly the point I was trying to make.. Personally, I could live like a queen on $33,600 a year!!