Genie Service

[krybandt]

* Most of that 30% come all the time. They do not spend a ton of money. DVC visitors in fact are quite adept at finding ways to save money by buying groceries and not eating on property. In contrast, that 70% are usually eating on the park and enjoying new experiences. They are also more likely to purchase toys for kids, shirts, gifts, etc.
* Although we in the 30% complain a lot, in actuality, a very small percentage (I have no idea how many) ACTUALLY LEAVE. MOST of us will not abandon Disney or stop or majorly change our plans over $15. So Disney gets the win of the 70% and loses very few of the 30%.

Oh I don't know, we may be adept at finding ways to save money, but we still manage to spend way more compared to early visits.

And it's not just $15. For families and groups, this adds up to hundreds if not thousands more. This is DVC right there. Two years ago, I wouldn't have thought about selling our points. Now I think we could find more magic by renovating our kitchen or seeing what the rest of the country has to offer. It doesn't mean I won't still love Disney, but I think it's fair to say the spell has broken for us.

 

[Jeb2318]

I have not seen that a new one would be allowed after a few hours. The one difference with this option is that you are allowed to make them at different parks so I think you will be able to see what is there day of before even hopping.

But, I think for me and the people I travel with, one park will work better since we leave mid day for hours. This way, we get the rides we can before we decide to leave, go Back to the resort and finish up the rest at night.

We will also capitalize on using night hours and most likely, pay for ROTR and FOP for those that want them.

I wonder if they are trying to push people away from hopping? The 2pm rule isn’t friendly to begin with, then add on this…

 

[Jeb2318]

The more I've been reading about Genie (and the more I've been doing the head scratch wondering what was Disney thinking) - I'm guessing there has to be some announcement coming soon for on-site guests (or DVC). I assume there's no reason the technology can't also have some LL reservations made 30 days prior, or to allow on-site guest to make more than one LL at a time.

If it's a DVC perk, I hope it's not just for blue card members - I'm only white card



Excellent point...
I'm in the camp of not thrilled with G+ / IAS - but I suspect we'll figure out ways to make it work.

I’ve been saying this too! I’m thinking there may be. But then I’m looking at the DLR magic key info and nothing on there. You would think if it were a perk it’d be a perk for both. But I don’t think they always had dvc discounts for DLR ap’s?!?! Who knows!

 

[BikeFan]

* Most of that 30% come all the time. They do not spend a ton of money. DVC visitors in fact are quite adept at finding ways to save money by buying groceries and not eating on property. In contrast, that 70% are usually eating on the park and enjoying new experiences. They are also more likely to purchase toys for kids, shirts, gifts, etc.
* Although we in the 30% complain a lot, in actuality, a very small percentage (I have no idea how many) ACTUALLY LEAVE. MOST of us will not abandon Disney or stop or majorly change our plans over $15. So Disney gets the win of the 70% and loses very few of the 30%.

I'd love to see the actual numbers, but in general, I think your analysis is correct. That being said, even if the superfans/DVCers/etc. don't spend as much per trip, they still come down a lot more often. I'd think a business would want to keep them at least marginally happy, because they're a regular source of revenue, even if they don't spend as much per trip. And yes, we DVC owners are already invested in the experience, and are less likely to walk away from Disney, but everyone has a breaking point - it almost seems like Disney's looking for that point.

As a personal example, with the convenience of Magical Express, we used to do a few extended weekend trips per year, because flights from the Washington DC area were sometimes very cheap, so it made sense to come down for a race weekend or some other WDW event. Now that ME is going away, I can't see us doing those quick trips anymore. Having to pay for the airport transfer now takes away a lot of the value of such a short visit. We'll still go, of course, but it'll be the longer trips where we drive down, and if we've got a vehicle for our trips, that'll mean a lot less money spent on food onsite. We're also looking at non-Disney things to do in the Orlando area, something we would not have considered before. We're just one family, so who knows if that even matters to Disney Corp.

 

[Sandisw]

I wonder if they are trying to push people away from hopping? The 2pm rule isn’t friendly to begin with, then add on this…

You have to wonder. The time works for us because we always do afternoon at resorts and never hop until 4 to 5 pm ish.

But, for those that can’t or don’t want to add to the budget, and normally do the hopper, changing things around can help one get the Genie + by not buying the hopper.

 

[drusba]

For clarity, I am not saying WDW does not WANT repeat customers. It's the opposite in fact - they want to build customers who have a brand loyalty. It is in fact one of their key mantras and as a company, they are known for developing a following (of which we all here are a part of).

There is a difference between wanting and enjoying repeat customers though and understanding your key demographic. WDW is a destination resort. As such, people travel from all over the world to visit it. Disney does not release exact numbers to us, but from all accounts internal and external, about 70% of the visitors are WDW are there on a first time only or generational visit (for convinces say they have visited WDW less then 5 times in their lifetime). MOST visit once or twice in their lifetime.

Again, this is very different from DLP, DLC, and other Disney Parks. WDW is a very special animal since it's actually a destination in and of itself.

Disney DOES want repeat customers. Otherwise they would obviously not care about how they treat new comers. The point however is that when it comes to a choice between locals and DVC members who frequent the parks all the time and winning over someone who has only visited once or twice, they will target the newer customers to make then repeat customers. In other words, they want the 70% of new people to have a better experience and will sacrifice the experience of the 30% locals, DVC, etc. Why? A number of reasons.

* Most of that 30% come all the time. They do not spend a ton of money. DVC visitors in fact are quite adept at finding ways to save money by buying groceries and not eating on property. In contrast, that 70% are usually eating on the park and enjoying new experiences. They are also more likely to purchase toys for kids, shirts, gifts, etc.
* Although we in the 30% complain a lot, in actuality, a very small percentage (I have no idea how many) ACTUALLY LEAVE. MOST of us will not abandon Disney or stop or majorly change our plans over $15. So Disney gets the win of the 70% and loses very few of the 30%.

Point being.... as mentioned, when making a choice, Disney will lean toward pleasing the 70% over us, AS WELL THEY SHOULD. Any SMART business would do the same.

Contrast this to a local restaurant (which is the context I mentioned it in) who's demographic is generally a 10-15 mile radius of people who like their food. They depend on 90% repeat customers. The loss of a single customer who decides not to come back for 10 years is a major hit. Them telling their friends in the area is another major hit. Just a little bad will can destroy them.

So 70% of visitors are essentially newbies to WDW. Now I understand what is going on here. Disney knows it has a good chance of getting a large portion of that 70% to buy Genie+ at $15 a person for EPCOT, while it likely makes Soarin', Test Track, and possibly Frozen not included in Genie+ but instead high demand rides that require separate payment. Seasoned veterans would know that buying Genie+ would be a foolish move in that situation because all other EPCOT attractions have long periods during the day when lines are minuscule. But Disney will be able to continuously milk that new $15 a person profit out of the many visitors who likely do not know the usual line issues at EPCOT.

 

[Marionnette]

So 70% of visitors are essentially newbies to WDW. Now I understand how low Disney's thinking is going here. It knows it has a good chance of fooling a large portion of that 70% into buying Genie+ at $15 a person for EPCOT, while it likely makes Soarin', Test Track, and possibly Frozen not included in Genie+ but instead high demand rides that require separate payment. Seasoned veterans would know that buying Genie+ would be a foolish move in that situation because all other EPCOT attractions have long periods during the day when lines are minuscule. But Disney will be able to continuously milk that new $15 a person profit out of the many visitors who likely do not know the usual line issues at EPCOT.

Of course that's true! They also baked Genie+ into the cake for packages. How many newbies are going to know that they don't have to pay for Genie+ for every day of their stay if they just purchase it the morning of their park visit instead of rolling it into a package?

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

My experience early this month was that I signed onto the MDE app at 7AM to try to get a time slot for ROTR. I got through the first screen, but by the time I got to the 2nd and 3rd screens, all time slots were gone for the day. I tried again at 1PM and got standby. By 3PM I was notified that no standbys would make it that day.

So if the capacity of the ride is exhausted within 5 seconds, I might go back for 5 years and never get on the ride. Adding a fee to the ride might bring supply and demand into balance, but it would probably take a hefty fee because the demand is so high. But I might pay it once. It would be better to pay it once in five years than to not ride it at all in five years.

It would be nice to offer it as a perk to onsite guests. My back of the envelope calculation tells me that there are probably more on-site guests than the capacity of the ride.

 

[Jwaire]

Of course that's true! They also baked Genie+ into the cake for packages. How many newbies are going to know that they don't have to pay for Genie+ for every day of their stay if they just purchase it the morning of their park visit instead of rolling it into a package?

How many travel or booking agents are going to push Genie+ on newbies just like they already do the dining plan? I can't tell you how many friends and family have purchased the dining plan only to complain about it being too much food and they ended up spending all their credits on M&Ms and Snickers the last day.

So if the capacity of the ride is exhausted within 5 seconds, I might go back for 5 years and never get on the ride. Adding a fee to the ride might bring supply and demand into balance, but it would probably take a hefty fee because the demand is so high. But I might pay it once. It would be better to pay it once in five years than to not ride it at all in five years.

It would be nice to offer it as a perk to onsite guests. My back of the envelope calculation tells me that there are probably more on-site guests than the capacity of the ride.

Disney should have just built Rise of the Resistance to be higher capacity. I remember several years ago Disney touting that Everest was built with FastPass in mind. They purposely built Everest to support a higher capacity load. That's why even the standby line goes by fairly quickly.

I think ROR has so many technical problems, they're afraid to fully book the ride.

I do wonder if there isn't an announcement coming that Genie+ will be available to DVC and Deluxe guests. You have to imagine people who book concierge are even more upset. They have been getting additional "free" FastPasses for years.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

So 70% of visitors are essentially newbies to WDW. Now I understand what is going on here. Disney knows it has a good chance of getting a large portion of that 70% to buy Genie+ at $15 a person for EPCOT, while it likely makes Soarin', Test Track, and possibly Frozen not included in Genie+ but instead high demand rides that require separate payment. Seasoned veterans would know that buying Genie+ would be a foolish move in that situation because all other EPCOT attractions have long periods during the day when lines are minuscule. But Disney will be able to continuously milk that new $15 a person profit out of the many visitors who likely do not know the usual line issues at EPCOT.

Quite correct. Disney can market Genie+ to the masses, and the largest demographic by far who outpaces us by over 2:1 ratio will think they are getting something that is SUPER beneficial. "OH WOW... For $15, I get faster access to Living with the land, Nemo, Imagination, Spaceship Earth, AND Mission Space?!?!??!! WHAT A BARGAIN!". It's funny if you spend time listening to first time visitors how excited they can be about a fastpass to Journey into Imagination. These same people will go back home at the end of the day having enjoyed their Genie+ access that they feel was a bargain, have for the most part enjoyed shorter lines, and may even come back sooner then the average 15 years.

If the price for that is that Disney frustrates even as much as 50% of the much smaller repeat crowds knowing that a smaller percentage of them might actually leave. Thst's only 10% of 50% of 30%. That's like 1%. <Shrug>. That crowd wasn't worth the trouble to them anyway.

How many travel or booking agents are going to push Genie+ on newbies just like they already do the dining plan? I can't tell you how many friends and family have purchased the dining plan only to complain about it being too much food and they ended up spending all their credits on M&Ms and Snickers the last day.

Absolutely - this too. When I first started going to Disney, I thought the dining plan was the best thing since sliced bread. I was an avid supporter of it. I loved it. Yeah, I had a billion snack credits at the end of the trip and usually went home with a suitcase full of cheetoes. It took really until I joined DVC to sit down and do the math and scratch my head a dozen times to figure out how much money I was losing on it.

But the average WDW visitor - that 70% - will be convinced that if they can afford it, it's a good deal. TA's will 100% upsell it. They will tell them all kinds of horror stories about long lines and sell the blissfulness of "being able to walk on a ride" and the average visitor not knowing any better since they have never been there - or maybe having heard from their friend who went there about how terrible the lines are (without that person knowing in detail about the different rides, capacity planning, time of day and other calculations that go into it) will be convinced - or even scared into - purchasing it.

And again, the small percentage of repeat visitors that get fed up are not going to mean squat to the bottom line.

You may not like hearing this, but it's true. And you may not like hearing this, but it's also good business. It may not be what you want from a business, but from a bottom line perspective, it's smart.

 

[CraigInPA]

My experience early this month was that I signed onto the MDE app at 7AM to try to get a time slot for ROTR. I got through the first screen, but by the time I got to the 2nd and 3rd screens, all time slots were gone for the day. I tried again at 1PM and got standby. By 3PM I was notified that no standbys would make it that day.

So if the capacity of the ride is exhausted within 5 seconds, I might go back for 5 years and never get on the ride. Adding a fee to the ride might bring supply and demand into balance, but it would probably take a hefty fee because the demand is so high. But I might pay it once. It would be better to pay it once in five years than to not ride it at all in five years.

It would be nice to offer it as a perk to onsite guests. My back of the envelope calculation tells me that there are probably more on-site guests than the capacity of the ride.

I'm with you. Six days at HS since launch, and not a single ride on ROTR because my wife and I haven't been able to score a boarding group in the less than one minute window when they're given out.

 

[DVCPAT]

And again, the small percentage of repeat visitors that get fed up are not going to mean squat to the bottom line.

You may not like hearing this, but it's true. And you may not like hearing this, but it's also good business. It may not be what you want from a business, but from a bottom line perspective, it's smart.

We’ll see if other businesses adopt the plan to gouge loyal customers and then take the position… who cares if they return.
People who can truly afford the price increases aren’t wasteful.
inflation is here to stay and rents are skyrocketing. 12-24 months from now, Disney will be wishing customers will return. Once interest rates start to rise, the parties over. I remember mortgage interest rates rose to 14% to tame inflation. Loyalty is everything when times are tough.

 

[Bearval]

Quite correct. Disney can market Genie+ to the masses, and the largest demographic by far who outpaces us by over 2:1 ratio will think they are getting something that is SUPER beneficial. "OH WOW... For $15, I get faster access to Living with the land, Nemo, Imagination, Spaceship Earth, AND Mission Space?!?!??!! WHAT A BARGAIN!". It's funny if you spend time listening to first time visitors how excited they can be about a fastpass to Journey into Imagination. These same people will go back home at the end of the day having enjoyed their Genie+ access that they feel was a bargain, have for the most part enjoyed shorter lines, and may even come back sooner then the average 15 years.

If the price for that is that Disney frustrates even as much as 50% of the much smaller repeat crowds knowing that a smaller percentage of them might actually leave. Thst's only 10% of 50% of 30%. That's like 1%. <Shrug>. That crowd wasn't worth the trouble to them anyway.



Absolutely - this too. When I first started going to Disney, I thought the dining plan was the best thing since sliced bread. I was an avid supporter of it. I loved it. Yeah, I had a billion snack credits at the end of the trip and usually went home with a suitcase full of cheetoes. It took really until I joined DVC to sit down and do the math and scratch my head a dozen times to figure out how much money I was losing on it.

But the average WDW visitor - that 70% - will be convinced that if they can afford it, it's a good deal. TA's will 100% upsell it. They will tell them all kinds of horror stories about long lines and sell the blissfulness of "being able to walk on a ride" and the average visitor not knowing any better since they have never been there - or maybe having heard from their friend who went there about how terrible the lines are (without that person knowing in detail about the different rides, capacity planning, time of day and other calculations that go into it) will be convinced - or even scared into - purchasing it.

And again, the small percentage of repeat visitors that get fed up are not going to mean squat to the bottom line.

You may not like hearing this, but it's true. And you may not like hearing this, but it's also good business. It may not be what you want from a business, but from a bottom line perspective, it's smart.

You are right the 1st time visitor will pay for it all however most of the visitors are repeats. Some come multiples times a year, once a year or every couple of years, these will be the people who will cut back their trips and spending. Once all this stimulus money ends and people have to start paying rent and back rent I think Disney is going to have to start offering incentives again to fill the parks.

 

[jimim]

We have 2 trips planned for 2022. These are rescheduled covid canceled trips. Not only did the cost of our purchased hoppers go up an additional $122.97 each,( $1598.61) And we no longer have Magical Express or luggage service. Add another $401 for Mears connect. Now they want us to pay $15 a day for each of us, there are 13 people going. That's another $195 a day. Add another $2535. So for the same trip it is costing us an additional $4,523.61 for a lesser experience.

and that's why people have to walk away from these trips or they will just keep charging more and more. I have cx'ed 5 trips cause covid. December's New Years trip got cx'ed cause I am just not giving them the extra money I need. and April will most likely get cx'ed and I'll rent out my points maybe. just not feeling the magic right now. my biggest gripe in all this is still needing to make park reservations at parks that are jammed packed. doesn't make sense to me at all. charging for rides now makes more sense than making a reservation needed to keep capacity in control when it seems to be pretty out of control.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

We’ll see if other businesses adopt the plan to gouge loyal customers and then take the position… who cares if they return.
People who can truly afford the price increases aren’t wasteful.
inflation is here to stay and rents are skyrocketing. 12-24 months from now, Disney will be wishing customers will return. Once interest rates start to rise, the parties over. I remember mortgage interest rates rose to 14% to tame inflation. Loyalty is everything when times are tough.

Well, when inflation increases and park attendance drops, Disney can very easily add a promotion for Disney+ free with your on-site reservation. It would not surprise me if they already have that coded into the system, and it's a flick of a switch.

As to other businesses - now sure how many times it needs to be repeated - Disney is late to this game. MOST of the amusement parks already charge for this. The people on social media complaining (which are a very small percentage of visitors) are upset because Disney is joining the ranks of most of the rest of the industry. Kinda like if every fast food in the world except McDonalds was charging for water, and then 5 years later McDonalds starts charging, you are getting upset at McDonalds instead of the rest of the industry.

however most of the visitors are repeats.

Again, you are failing to understand Disney's demographics. That statement is flat out wrong for WDW. It's true for DLP and DCL. At WDW as has been mentioned a number of times - approx 70% of the visitors are once in a lifetime or once in a generation visitors.

Last I checked, 30% does not qualify as "most".

 

[crazymomof4]

At WDW as has been mentioned a number of times - approx 70% of the visitors are once in a lifetime or once in a generation visitors.

Last I checked, 30% does not qualify as "most".

Can you please provide a link to where you "checked" this or, if the link isn't allowed, at least point us in the right direction? So the rest of us can also read this stat and others like it?
I'm genuinely interested. I enjoy researching such things.

 

[NoTime42]

I also tend to think that’s an older number. With the population explosion there’s a lot more local AP’s than the old days.

 

[thanxfornoticin]

Can you please provide a link to where you "checked" this or, if the link isn't allowed, at least point us in the right direction? So the rest of us can also read this stat and others like it?
I'm genuinely interested. I enjoy researching such things.

Agreed - I'd be interested, too. That sounds to me like an old number, but I could easily be wrong. I know way more people who have been there multiple times. After 50 years, the 'once in a lifetime visitor' category seems like it would be much less than that.

 

[Marionnette]

Here's an interesting analysis of park attendance demographics (from 2018):

https://www.streetlightdata.com/measuring-travel-behavior-disney-world/?type=blog
Interesting to note, and something that I have touched on in previous posts:

"It’s interesting to see in Fig. 4 that households who have an annual income of $125,000 or more (the second largest income group in the US), don’t visit the park as frequently, although they have the funds."​

​

 

[msm1444]

There is some confusion here. The statistic is the 70% return rate for new visitors.

https://www.helpscout.com/blog/disney-customer-experience/