Gay Days 2002

[JonHM]

First of all, let me say that last year, DW and I arrived at WDW unknowingly on the final day of Gay Days. We knew nothing of it until we entered the Magic Kingdom. All I can say is that is one of the most *wonderful* days that we have ever had at WDW. We saw absolutely *nothing* inappropriate - simply lots of people having fun and enjoying WDW just as it should be.

Walt&Julie- I really do not think that gay people 'define themselves' as gay - the gay people that I know 'define themselves' as PEOPLE. It is intolerant people in society who 'define' them as gay. On that entire day that we were there last year, we did not see ANY political statement - simply lots of people enjoying their vacations and sharing in the Disney Magic. In fact, the thing that I found most moving and wonderful about Gay Days last year was that here were all these people that ALL of society defines as 'gay' before any other character trait, all the other days of the year - and for these few days at Disney World, they were not being singled out that way - they could just be people, just like everyone else at Disney World! Yes, certainly, I saw a LOT of pride in those wearing red shirts, but it came through in their smile and their demeanor - not in the form of 'political statements' being shouted or worn on signs or t-shirts. And you know what? Next year we're going back to WDW with my toddler son and SIL and her two kids - again during the last few days of Gay Days... and I boldly predict that we will again have a wonderful time.

As for your statement that Disney only 'tolerates' gay people because they do not have the strength of will to openly oppose the supposedly horrific political correctness of our society, I have some news for you. Disney is one of the most gay-friendly companies in the US - by CHOICE. Perhaps you don't read the news, but for a number of years the Southern Baptist Convention openly advocating boycotting all things Disney because they treated their gay employees the SAME as each of their other employees - equal access to health care for partners was the original issue, I believe. The Disney Corporation has been a trailblazer in instituting these types of policies, without any precedents from any large companies to motivate it to do so.

It is my great desire that finding out that Disney is such an openly gay-friendly company will cause people like you, VaPoohbear and Ragamuffin to organize your own little boycott - perhaps it will shock you so much that you will never attend WDW again.

Both WaltandJulie and Ragamuffin, thanks for giving me the biggest laugh I've had in a long time by your hilarious statements that neither of you are intolerant. That was a hoot!

WaltandJulie - so you think that if the Republicans decided to hold their next convention at the Swan, that Disney World should send out 'warnings' to guests - after all, they'd be making political statements, wouldn't they? And they'd be there defining themselves by their membership in 'that' group. And the presence of that many of 'them' in the parks might make some of us uncomfortable....

Ragamuffin - I won't say that you're sick, but some of your views truly are. (You know that approach, don't you? Love the sinner, hate the sin?) To act like there is anything 'wrong' with gay people that would need to be 'cured' is one of the most offensive things that I have ever heard. By the way, no one has ever 'scientifically proven' that intolerant bigots actually have smaller brains than the rest of us, but that don't mean it ain't true!

tonygowell - 2 *excellent* posts! Very well thought out, well said. Kudos!

 

[scanne]

I just think that it is sooo sad in this day and age, and with what our country went through on 9/11, that we all can't embrace each other as human beings and accept one another as brothers and sisters. Truly, in the eyes of a child, love is seen as love and nothing more.

I've been following this thread since I first saw it and I think it's becoming a huge debate on what people think is "right" or "tolerant" or just plain ignorance. I am pregnant with my first child, and both my DH and myself are so excited to be able to take him to WDW for the first time! If we 'happened' to go during a Gay Pride weekend, so be it. I have seen gay and lesbian couples at WDW on MANY of my visits and they are simply loving, nurturing people. Why wouldn't I want my child to see that? LOVE IS WHAT SHOULD MAKE THIS WORLD GO 'ROUND!!! And there is no right or wrong way to love another person! We are all children in the eyes of God, and I believe God loves us all.

(BTW, I am not a very religious person, and if I were I would find some of the teachings of certain religions to be intolerant!)

I hope I haven't 'offended' anyone. I just wanted everyone to know that we need to stop labeling and start loving!!!

 

[theboysmom]

This is my very first post.

I used this site when planning my trip for 5/29 - 6/5 of this year. I was in Disney World during the entire Gay Day Celebration and had no problems. I found out about the conference by visiting this site prior to my trip. I than looked up the website for the Gay Day Celebration and planned my trip around the schedule stated (in order to avoid crowds only). It worked wonderfully. We had low crowds and reasonable wait times. I never anticipated a problem nor had one. I also found that they had a block of rooms reserved at the same Hotel as us. Again, no problems. I honestly felt that the people attending the celebration were in many ways more respectful and courteous than the average guest.

My husband and I agreed that we would have no problem visiting during the celebration again.

P.S. I hope I did this properly

 

[Eeyore1954]

ragamuffin: I am sitting here literally biting my tongue until it bleeds (OUCH! ). I will not make the mistake ever again of referring to someone's opinions as intolerant, because there are people on here who will stretch the facts and make accusations of name-calling. However, your post was the most incredible piece of writing I have read in a long, long time. I did not think that in 2002 there were still people around who could possibly believe that individuals who are gay or lesbian needed to be
cured ! Then to equate being gay with mental illnesses like depression and schizophrenia goes beyond belief.

Please take some time, go on the Internet or to your local library and do some reading. You will find that many years ago the medical community discarded these ideas as ancient and more importantly, incorrect ! Welcome to the new millennium and a new way of thinking.

theboysmom: Welcome to the DIS! Thanks for your post and you did it perfectly.

 

[Chuck S]

Hey Ragamuffin,
Have you ever heard of John Paulk? He was the chairman of EXODUS , one of the largest religious based groups that claimed they can "cure" homosexuals. He was dismissed from his post in October of 2000, after being photographed in a gay pick-up bar. What was he doing there? He claimed that he 1)didn't know it was a gay bar (if you're an anti-gay activist how can you NOT know) and 2) that he only went in to USE the restroom. Do you think he was innocently doing research on how well the "cure" worked?

 

[ragamuffin]

Ragamuffin, I dont think anyone on this board was asking for an opinion poll about whether or not you agree with a gay lifestyle.

Nor were they asking for yours or the other 43 postings on this topic. But if you notice I did also make a reply to the original post regarding whether he should get a refund.

You probably dont agree with my religion either, but would you openly object to Jew days at disney world?

I've re-read my post - could you PLEASE point out where I said I object to gay-days??? In fact, I totally disagree w/the original poster about getting a refund or that it's Disney's place to object to any group. As far as whether I would agree with your religion, well that might depend on if you were a MESSIANIC jew or not... As for me, its not so much religion as it is faith.

I did not think that in 2002 there were still people around who could possibly believe that individuals who are gay or lesbian needed to be cured !

I never said <B>needed</B> to be cured. But it's an option. Many people have done it.

Then to equate being gay with mental illnesses like depression and schizophrenia goes beyond belief.

Well, alcoholism and obesity are also thought to be genetically linked. That doesn't mean they have to be accepted.

Please take some time, go on the Internet or to your local library and do some reading.

Maybe you should do the same. I've been reading about this for over 5 years. Just for starters:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/gaygene990422.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/gayy_19990423.html

The evidence either way is not conclusive. But the evidence for a 'gay gene' has been debunked, mostly by the identical twin study. This study was concluded that though there are possible genetic tendencies that may lead one into homosexuality, but that genetics could not be the whole story. Most of Hamer's research from the 1990's have been dis-credited or unable to be replicated. But either way, my point was that being gay is not set in stone and that many people have changed their lifestyle - but like any deviation it is a change that has to be wanted by the person.

By the way, no one has ever 'scientifically proven' that intolerant bigots actually have smaller brains than the rest of us, but that don't mean it ain't true!

You are so kind. You are a truly loving, nurturing person...

I'm surprised by the reaction to my post. I was simply giving another opinion and have never said that homosexuals needed to be cured, simply saying that many have changed their lifestyles and I wanted to give some background on what i've studied.

 

[Lainy67]

Frankly, I wish that they would tell us when ANY group is in the park. We went several years ago, and there were a bunch of (gasp) soccor kids from various countries obviously at a convention of some sort. It was normally fine, until they grouped up in their teams and tried to do something. They were pushy, and forget trying to get a spot to view the parades during that time.

I applaud that they mentioned something to the resort guests about it being crowded, but I don't see the harm if they had some sort of board going where the various LARGE groups would be acknowledged to be in the parks those days. Be it Cheerleaders, Soccor Players, or Gays.

Reardless of peoples beliefs about whether the Gay / Lesbian lifestyle is a choice or not (I could frankly care less whether it is or not) there are some people out there who do not choose to expose their young children to something they are not willing to explain or that they believe should not be explained until they are older. Right or wrong, it is their opinion. It stunned me when I first encountered this. I took my dd who was 5 or 6 at the time to see the movie In and Out because I loved the actors in it, and it looked funny. It was hysterical. My daughter wanted to know what gay was, I told her, she said oh, ok. And that was it. I had friends however, that were appalled that I would take her to see it. They would never do that. You know what, that is their choice.

They had the choice to not take their kids to a movie. However, I have had friends that have not been internet savvy that scheduled a trip to Disney and found out after arriving that it was Gay Days. They were fairly upset. They had had no choice. They didn't know it was a possibility. They had to explain to their kids why there were two men holding hands or two girls kissing, and they were not prepared, nor had they been willing to explain it to kids that they considered too young before that. As parents, it should have been their choice. By the time they were in MK it was too late. They did not have the choice to go to another park before their kids were asking questions, because they were not told. And being told there might be large crowds is not the same as being told there are organized groups of any sort. I might brave large crowds of MANY families. However, large crowds of teenagers with very LIMITED adult supervision is another thing to me.

I do not see the harm in having it posted somewhere what groups and how large they are are anticipated in the parks. I don't see any legal ramifications although, maybe there is that I am unaware of. I know this may be difficult with some groups, as they are not necessarily telling the parks. But things that Disney is aware of is something they could do.

 

[JonHM]

First of all, let me say... why, thank you. I was worried you were going to completely ignore me - you just saved me for the bottom of your post. Please note two things about my quote, since you are being so literal about what you did and did not say. First, I *never* said that *you* were an intolerant bigot, I was speaking in general. And second, I *never* said that it was actually true that intolerant bigots have smaller brains, I *simply* said that the fact that something has not been 'scientifically proven' does not mean that it is not correct or true. There has never been any 'scientific proof' of much of the crux of your religion, but you believe it because you feel it in your bones; as you said, you have faith. Well, I have complete and utter faith that someone either IS or IS NOT gay. There is no choice, people just are what they are. You know, many religious people like to attack 'scientific' evidence all the time - for instance, do you agree with the theory of evolution? But when it is convenient for them, such as a case where one could say that something has not been scientifically proven, they pull out the science card. I find that very interesting.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I must wholeheartedly and completely disagree with you that 'many' people have been 'cured' of being gay. First of all, what is offensive is not your supposedly saying that it did or did not *need* to be cured, but simply your saying that it was something that *could* be cured - it likens homosexuality to a disease, and that, my friend, is horribly offensive. During the last centuries of the Roman Empire, before Constantine, I'm sure there were many Romans who spoke of being Christian the way you speak of being gay - that it is a choice, that you could change your religion easily to the mainstream religion of the Romans if you 'wanted' to - and also that you could be 'cured' of being a Christian, again, if you wanted to. Now of course someone who has complete faith in Christianity could not just 'decide' to change religions - they ARE a Christian, and nor would their changing religions, or pretending not to be Christian, mean that they had been 'cured'.

As for your assertion that many gay people have been 'cured', it is my considered opinion that those are people who are simply denying their homosexuality, either to their family and friends, or even to themselves. Certainly, gay people can have heterosexual relationships or live in denial, but that does not make them any less gay. In fact, one of the problems in trying to 'prove' any sort of genetic basis for homosexuality would be the tremendous stigma that exists in our society towards anyone gay: this stigma would cause many people being 'studied' to say, oh no, I'm not gay. That doesn't mean they aren't. This is a topic which would be almost impossible to 'scientifically prove'.

Oh, and as far as your complement to me: "You are so kind. You are a truly loving, nurturing person...", I have but one thing to say:

Right back at'cha, sweetie!

 

[JonHM]

Absolutely true, that it is your friends' choice as to when and whether they speak to their children about homosexuality. But unless they were going to keep them locked in the attic or something, the incident (her kids seeing two men holding hands or two women kissing) could have happened ANYWHERE. It just happened to happen in WDW. They could have seen that at their local mall. Or they could have seen it ANY time of year at WDW. To me, if you get to the point where children are asking something, and you haven't spoken to them about it yet, that is simply a consequence of choosing to wait to speak about it. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with their choosing to wait, that is their decision. But the longer one waits, the more likely that something like that is going to force the issue.

 

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by Lainy67

I do not see the harm in having it posted somewhere what groups and how large they are are anticipated in the parks. I don't see any legal ramifications although, maybe there is that I am unaware of. I know this may be difficult with some groups, as they are not necessarily telling the parks. But things that Disney is aware of is something they could do.

But therein lies the problem, should any group have to ADVISE Disney that they will be attending a park...if they don't give Disney previous advise...should they be allowed entry if they have tickets? For example, say a large group DID show up, and had not advised Disney that it may be attending. If someone found them objectionable, could they then sue Disney for not posting the possibility, since it was policy to post about other groups? And how many constitute a group? 5, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000?

How could someone get all the way through the gates of the MK before realizing a really large group was there? They would have had to arrive via 1)resort bus 2)Monorail 3)boat or 4)walked from the Contemporary. Seeing a lot of people that are all wearing red should have given them a clue BEFORE they went through the turnstiles that a large group of SOME KIND was there.

 

[JonHM]

that there are many large groups of people visiting WDW practically all the time.

 

[Lainy67]

OH, I agree completely with you. In fact I had something in there about how I thought it was wrong because it could have happened anywhere, and they would have to deal with it, but I took it out because I was getting long winded. LOL.

I think their view was that if it had been a single couple they would have been able to deal with it differently, but with it being many, they got asked a lot more questions. Right or wrong, it did impact their vacation in a way they did not want.

My point is that I believe that Disney could give notice of ANY large group that they are aware AWARE will be at a particular park on a particular day. If they are not aware of course nothing can be done.

 

[Nuts4Disney]

CRAZYFORGOOFY: Thank you for your post. I could not have said it better myself! You're a great Mom!

THANK YOU to all of you who replied with support & tolerance toward gays & others. It is truly appreciated! Reading your positive experiences with gays & GAYDAYS gave this miserable thread a positive spin.

THEBOYSMOM: WELCOME!!!! Your 1st post was perfect! Thank you for posting & hope you enjoy the DIS!

RAGAMUFFIN:

"Thou dost think thee protests too much!"

Here is a link to a series of articles you may find as interesting as I did. It also ran as a documentary on PBS. A particularly interesting part of the series is: "Roots of Homophobia"

"Many heterosexuals repress homosexual tendencies, Sigmund Freud believed, and some repress them more strongly than others. Homophobia is the name for what Freud saw as heterosexuals' "vigorous counter-attitudes" to homosexuality. For most of this century, many writers on the topic, following Freud, have accepted this relationship between repressed (or "latent") homosexuality and homophobia. But, Dr. Henry Adams of the University of Georgia, was the first to attempt to test the proposition empirically. The results? Individuals who score in the homophobic range on the "Homophobia Scale" demonstrate signficant... homosexual..." [I have edited this last sentence for appropriateness for The DIS. You will have to go to the article to get the actually wording. The idea of it should be understood.]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/

I am sad for you that you felt that you couldn't accept yourself for who you are & felt the need to "change" such an intrinsic part of you. You only infer that you "were" gay, you do not seem even able to say the word about yourself.

It is too bad that you did not seek out help from a reputable psychotherapist knowledgable in gay issues. They probably could have helped you through your Internalized Homophobia to accepting yourself & others. I wish you peace in your life.

 

[Nuts4Disney]

Good Point, ChuckS!

Originally posted by Lainy67


...They had to explain to their kids why there were two men holding hands or two girls kissing, and they were not prepared, nor had they been willing to explain it to kids that they considered too young before that...

Lainy67: Forgive me for using your post & singling you out here. This is NOT directed at you, personally. I know this has been taken out of context of your original post. I have read similar comments like this regarding GAYDAYS from straight & gay posters, & I have taken the liberty to "borrow" this from your post so that I may comment on this. Thank you for letting me quote this.


Would the children be too young to see a heterosexual couple holding hands, exchanging a loving glance, giving eachother a warm embrace, sharing a gentle kiss, holding eachother while slow dancing, or sitting together -- their arm over the shoulder of their beloved -- on a park bench?

There appears to be a double standard when same gender couples act the way heterosexual couples do. That double standard could be summed up in 1 word: HOMOPHOBIA!

 

[Jackie H.]

Well, I think this thread had gotten pretty ugly in the middle there, but people seem to have calmed down now.

My question is this: did I miss it or didn't the original poster only post the one time? I mean he/she never responded to any replys, did they? Was the sole purpose of this post to start a fight?

Gotta wonder.....

 

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by Lainy67
My point is that I believe that Disney could give notice of ANY large group that they are aware AWARE will be at a particular park on a particular day. If they are not aware of course nothing can be done.

So, again, if many individuals show up, dressed in similar shirts without giving prior notice to WDW and someone finds them offensive - that's OK, as long as WDW didn't know about it prior to their arrival?

 

[Lainy67]

Originally posted by Chuck S


But therein lies the problem, should any group have to ADVISE Disney that they will be attending a park...if they don't give Disney previous advise...should they be allowed entry if they have tickets? For example, say a large group DID show up, and had not advised Disney that it may be attending. If someone found them objectionable, could they then sue Disney for not posting the possibility, since it was policy to post about other groups? And how many constitute a group? 5, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000?

Originally posted by Chuck S


So, again, if many individuals show up, dressed in similar shirts without giving prior notice to WDW and someone finds them offensive - that's OK, as long as WDW didn't know about it prior to their arrival?

I think you are taking my statements out of context.

I never said they shouldn't be let in. Or that anyone could sue. Or anything about keeping anyone out. Nor did I say that any group should have to advise Disney of anything. My suggestion is that notifying people of large groups is an option that IMO would be helpful when Disney is aware of it.

I am not offended by a large group of teenagers, but I may choose to spend my day where it might be quieter or less stimulating for my young child (as other kids get rowdy, my kids do). If I have that option, I might choose to use it. If I don't know about it, I can't. And by large group I mean several hundred or even several thousand.

I think that what Disney did was appropriate. I wish that they did it every time is my point. Announcing that they are expecting large crowds. I however, don't see the harm in saying that a large group of soccor players, or cheerleaders or gay people are going to be there at certain times if they are aware of it. I may avoid a park where thousands of Baptist Youth Groups are attending, yet may be fine in that same park where thousands of Gay adults and families are attending. To me a lot of the criteria is age and amount of supervision. For you it may be something else. However, if announcing the groups affiliation is a problem, then stating that large crowds are expected due to a convention or gathering is fine by me. That gives me options.

Originally posted by Nuts4Disney
Good Point, ChuckS!



Lainy67: Forgive me for using your post & singling you out here. This is NOT directed at you, personally. I know this has been taken out of context of your original post. I have read similar comments like this regarding GAYDAYS from straight & gay posters, & I have taken the liberty to "borrow" this from your post so that I may comment on this. Thank you for letting me quote this.


Would the children be too young to see a heterosexual couple holding hands, exchanging a loving glance, giving eachother a warm embrace, sharing a gentle kiss, holding eachother while slow dancing, or sitting together -- their arm over the shoulder of their beloved -- on a park bench?

There appears to be a double standard when same gender couples act the way heterosexual couples do. That double standard could be summed up in 1 word: HOMOPHOBIA!

NUTS4Disney - No problem using my quote in that scenario. I agree with what you said. But unfortunately, living in the South, more specifically the Bible Belt, many people I know are not very openminded about this or quite frankly many other things (being a Harry Potter and Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan has gotten me into some rather heated discussions - LOL). I am not sure it is actually Homophobia in a lot of cases or just fear of the unknown, unseen, different in general. I know people who are very uncomfortable around gay people or even references to being gay. But in a lot of situations these same people are uncomfortable around Hispanics, and working women, and people with piercings. They are not hateful about it, but just unexposed to it and uncomfortable.

Frankly I hope there will come a time when there will be no need for Gay Days at WDW.

 

[Minnie's Pal]

I think the reason why the person who started this post has not responded is probably b/c they didn't realize what they were starting here.

And just to add my opinion in there, I think everyone has the right to have their own opinion. Whether you are for, against or just plain out don't have an opinion one way or another.