Gator grabs 2 year old at Grand Floridian?

[rteetz]

I wonder why these weren't found earlier? How often do they patrol the waterways and remove them?

According to police Disney has staff monitoring the water ways daily for gators. I'm guessing these gators were a bit hidden and with the intensive search going on fairly easy to find.

 

[closetmickey]

Almost everywhere else you go in Florida that has a body of water has alligator warning signs. Disney needs to change their docile no swimming signs, to a more appropriate warning. See the two below examples and tell me which one has a bigger impact, or paints the correct picture of the real danger.

Beach club sign:

Standard Alligator warning sign.
View attachment 175603

Absolutely this!! According to this sign, the family appears to have followed the stated rules. So tragic.

 

[dlavender]

And now we know a village is missing a certain someone. Please, for the love of Mickey, crawl back into that bubble before something gets you. If you think that is needed, how about at your house? Do you have signage all around your house to not touch that live electrical wire or do you know that it wouldn't be a good idea? How about a sign on all of your knives? Do you warn guests of how sharp they are? Where is your signage? See where I'm going with this? Blaming Disney is not the answer.

Also, if you think signs are so ridiculous, why even have the no swimming sign? Why have any signs?

 

[Redcon1]

According to police Disney has staff monitoring the water ways daily for gators. I'm guessing these gators were a bit hidden and with the intensive search going on fairly easy to find.

Thanks. I wasn't assigning blame to Disney, but just curious about their work procedures in general, i.e do they patrol one area one day and another on a different day, etc.

 

[dlavender]

According to police Disney has staff monitoring the water ways daily for gators.

This is the crux of my argument.

They know they have gators. They know they have beaches on the lake. They know they have kids and families on those beaches. They play movies next to these beaches to attract the families. They know the risk. They didn't make sure that the guests knew the same risks.

 

[mshanson3121]

You can't monitor everyone at all times.

And we don't know if Disney hasn't already sent out notices to the parties feeding animals. There's only so much you can do. People are going to do what they're going to do with all the warnings in the arsenal.

But do they have signs saying "Feeding alligators is against Law #XYZ"? No.
When we went to the resort in bear country - there were signs around the property AND in every room.
The point is, legally, Disney is doing nothing. To cover their butt, they need to put up signs. At least then, in a court of law they can say, "We did this," instead of, "We did nothing."

 

[jade1]

Do you let you 2 year old wade in "maybe just a foot of water" in the pitch black at 9 pm?

We light our swim area and still would not allow a 2 yo in, even with no alligators.

That said, it doesn't sound like we know all the details yet.

 

[bpellis]

Again...there is no system that can do what you're proposing...

It's not inline with the purpose of the property...

And I have to reject the "i didn't know" that alligators use those teeth to eat other living creatures...or that they could come out if the water.

Really? Ignorance is bliss here?

Common sense isn't that common.

People expect too much because it has a Disney label on it and the bill is high. That's the Bottomline.

It would be easier to build that temperature controlled dome over the property that people ask for rather than eliminate the reptiles from a 42 square mile expanse of reclamated swamp.

Perhaps there isn't a system to not allow gators into the lake. i'm clearly not an expert on wildlife management, it sounded reasonable, but perhaps that doesn't exist.

And to some extent, yes, I think the "i didn't know" is a plausible defense here. If Disney knows that there are gators in the lake, which it seems they did, then they should put up signage to warn people. Thats not asking a lot. They shouldn't assume that everyone staying on their property knows that gators are there and can attack people. I did not, and I assume many others do not know this as well. However, Disney knew, so they should have the responsibility to warn people.

Its no difference than every ride being reminded to keep my arms in the car. Why doesn't Disney just assume that people know that they can get injured on a ride? They don't, and instead they remind people every ride. I assume this is because they realize there is a risk of injury, and its cheap to remind people of this. Why not do the same for the lakes?

 

[mshanson3121]

You can't catch every time it happens though. CMs aren't always in the area when it happens and it might be hard to prove without some sort of law enforcement in the area or cameras.

No you can't. But honestly, this is one of the craziest, and worst arguments that has been coming up here. Basically, "If you can't catch them all, it's not worth bothering."
No law or rule is EVER going to catch everyone or prevent everyone from doing that act - but that doesn't mean you don't still try. Stopping 75% is better than none. Heck, stopping 20% is better than stopping none.

Also, let's take the people out of it. These "rules" also protect to protect Disney. If nothing else, they should be doing it for themselves.

 

[mukorasirish]

Thanks. I wasn't assigning blame to Disney, but just curious about their work procedures in general, i.e do they patrol one area one day and another on a different day, etc.

Big issue is that gators really don't like people and hate the noise of boats. So when they patrol they are also scaring them into hiding hence making them harder to find. So even if they diligently patrolled the whole lake they would miss those that hide at the sound of the boats.

 

[Redcon1]

Absolutely this!! According to this sign, the family appears to have followed the stated rules. So tragic.

I wonder too since the alligator was so close to shore, if it's possible the child would still have been attacked even if they were say, 10-20 feet away from the water. I don't see any reason why the short patch of land would've stopped the animal from coming up on the beach if it was that close to start with.

 

[rteetz]

No you can't. But honestly, this is one of the craziest, and worst arguments that has been coming up here. Basically, "If you can't catch them all, it's not worth bothering."
No law or rule is EVER going to catch everyone or prevent everyone from doing that act - but that doesn't mean you don't still try. Stopping 75% is better than none. Heck, stopping 20% is better than stopping none.

Also, let's take the people out of it. These "rules" also protect to protect Disney. If nothing else, they should be doing it for themselves.

While true unfortunately it takes an event like this to change things. Disney hasn't felt the need to change anything because nothing like this has ever happened.

 

[Maleffiecent41]

Disney did nothing is not a truthful statement. They tell you in your vacation package planning that there is no swimming in any of the Lakes and that they are for boating activities only, If you don't take the time to read the information that is not Disney's fault that you created your own liability and it is says that there are dangerous things in the water ways like Alligators. They make it very clear that swimming is permitted at pools and in the water park only.

 

[mukorasirish]

I wonder too since the alligator was so close to shore, if it's possible the child would still have been attacked even if they were say, 10-20 feet away from the water. I don't see any reason why the short patch of land would've stopped the animal from coming up on the beach if it was that close to start with.

Gators aren't equipped to hunt on land. The attacks you see in the movies where they drag prey into the water aren't what they do in the wild . I won't go into detail on how they kill as it's not appropriate here but they feed in water. If there is prey RIGHT at the water's edge that they can lunge and pull right in ok but they don't track prey on land and bring it back 10 or 20 feet to the water.
They will attack on land if provoked or in fear but that is very different.

 

[mikepizzo]

While true unfortunately it takes an event like this to change things. Disney hasn't felt the need to change anything because nothing like this has ever happened.

To be fair, no animals have ever gotten loose in Animal Kingdom, but there are procedures in place in case something like that were to happen.

I've never liked the fact that those lakes are so accessible. What purpose does the beach truly serve? Viewing fireworks? Sleeping in a hammock? Can't you get the same enjoyment from doing those things with grass under you?

It always just seemed like a liability to have an unsupervised body of water that housed the lands animals.

 

[DisUniversal]

Whole thing seems pretty crazy. I've lived in Orlando for 25 years and know that alligators can be in just about any body of water here...especially one the size of Seven Seas Lagoon/Bay Lake. I wouldn't think of letting a pet, let alone a child, walk near the edge of a neighborhood retention pond, let alone a huge lake, without very close supervision and wouldn't consider it all after dark. Unless Disney could 100% guarantee that there were no gators, it seems a bit crazy for them to build beaches that lead right to the edge of the water and even crazier to give people a reason to be there after dark.

 

[mshanson3121]

While true unfortunately it takes an event like this to change things. Disney hasn't felt the need to change anything because nothing like this has ever happened.

Except for that time it happened before... though granted it was 30 years ago and the child survived. And then, as someone else said, that time that a guest was chased by an alligator. Or the time at the MK the alligator came right onto shore. Or the fact that there are roughly a dozen attacks in Florida every year (though only an average of 5 need medical attention). So basically, no one has died before. But they have attacked before, and they have approached guests before. I realize it's not exactly high numbers, but... Disney was burying their heads in the sand, if they honestly thought it wouldn't happen at some point, knowing that the population is getting larger, and they're becoming more of a problem (more frequent in numbers) on their property.

 

[rteetz]

Whole thing seems pretty crazy. I've lived in Orlando for 25 years and know that alligators can be in just about any body of water here...especially one the size of Seven Seas Lagoon/Bay Lake. I wouldn't think of letting a pet, let alone a child, walk near the edge of a neighborhood retention pond, let alone a huge lake, without very close supervision and wouldn't consider it all after dark. Unless Disney could 100% guarantee that there were no gators, it seems a bit crazy for them to build beaches that lead right to the edge of the water and even crazier to give people a reason to be there after dark.

They were built at a time when swimming in those lakes was allowed.

 

[davper]

Amoebas? But that's silly.

Not really. There have been a number of such cases.

Hey while we're at it, any idea why they closed River Country? I loved that place, and they're dumb for closing it and letting it rot.

Lower patronage due to the opening of other water park(s).

Something tells me a jury would strongly disagree with you. A "No swimming" sign does not convey the gravity of the potential consequences if you walk ankle deep in the water on a resort beach.

I'm still of the opinion from my days of defending premises liability claims, that this Family would have a hard uphill climb to present Disney as negligent. Partially (only due to the signage), but after that.....tough. Especially in front of a conservative jury of people that live in Florida and are aware of the inherent dangers of waterways and alligators.

So then you have to put a price on the child (which is just an awful experience to go through - trust me), then cut that back by Pure Negligence rules. My best guess through mediation outside of court would be 60 Family/40 Disney, or 70 Family/30 Disney (worst case for the family).

Either way, it's awful for both parties.

I can see why people like me who are not from Florida would think that wading with my shoes off was OK and is not "swimming."

The wading vs. no swimming argument makes no sense to me. If I see a no swimming sign, I tend to think going near that body of water in any shape is not good for my health.

I also think a No Swimming sign means no wading. To me, wading is a form of swimming. You don't have to be doing the backstroke in the middle of the Seven Seas Lagoon to be considered swimming, IMO.

No swimming does not mean no wading. If they intended no wading, they could have posted a no wading/no swimming sign.
From Dictionary.com:
Wading definition, to walk in water, when partially immersed: He wasn't swimming, he was wading.

There a number of reasons why a resort would not allow swimming but allow wading. No lifeguard on duty, dangerous rip currents, plant growth that could snag you, etc. None of that is an issue if you are just wading in ankle deep to cool off.

I have always been slightly confused why they would design so many open beach areas with water you cannot swim in. Or walk in, whatever. It was a bad idea to begin with. I'm sure some imagineers could have come up with an immersive design that didn't include a real beach setting not intended for actual beach activity use. I was at CBR in April and you can see the beach areas with hammocks near the water, but it never appealed to me to relax in that setting. The water doesn't look clean even. Bad idea from the get-go.

Because they used to allow swimming and the beach feature adds to the ambiance of the resort. I used to swim in Bay Lake and patronize River Country. They kept the swim areas pretty clean then.

Was it wise for a small child to be playing at the edge of the water, at night, in a season when alligators are known to be aggressive?

Coming from a big city up north where gators in the sewer is a myth, how would I know this is the aggressive season? Shouldn't the resrt let people know that Disney is part of a natural habitat and this time of year makes gators especially dangerous and to avoid areas where they might be?



When I go camping, I know that I could have visitors from wildlife of all forms. I research, prepare, and avoid situations. Because there is no entity out there to protect us or their interests.

When I go to a resort, unless the resort has warned us about dangerous situations, I assume that the resort has taken every precaution to keep their guests safe. A no swimming sign is not an indication of danger. And wading ankle deep is not violating to the no swimming policy.
Our local beaches will say no wading/no swimming when they don't want anyone in the water. But they also indicate why. If contamination, they say that. If because of sharks, they tell us that also.
So would a reasonable person, from my area, see the no swimming sign and believe that there is no harm in wading in?

 

[umichigan10]

Have you ever killed an ant in your kitchen and then put ant poison down? Every use a rat trap? Kill a mole in your yard? Killed a spider on the ceiling? If yes then you're being a bit hypocritical here.

Just because they are bigger animals doesn't mean when they threaten human lives we shouldn't try and control them in populated areas. I wonder what you think of the kangaroo culling they do in Australia because of their exploding population, or the killing of deer for sport in the north because when left unchecked their numbers reek havoc on forest vegetation and make roadways unsafe.

In the end I think we can all agree this is a tragedy all around. I see validity in both sides: hindsight is 20/20 and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

There is an alligator hunting season, and it probably helps to control the population (but only to an extent).

Yeah we shouldn't give them free reign in the magic kingdom but I can't get nearly on board when a PP said to exterminate all gators. Such a typical, ignorant human idea (I'm not lecturing at you about the last part for the record)